Another oddball

Classic12 · May 2, 2020, 07:00 PM

Or odd pistol popped up for sale here in Switzerland

A J. Kimball Arms Co. of Detroit, Michigan, in .30 Carbine

According to the ad, it was the first ever pistol produced (in very small numbers, 250) in .30 Carbine. Production was stopped due to technical problems with the gun and it is unsafe to fire.

Price is $ 2000, and I’m not buying it

Since this one is American maybe some forum members know about it ?

rock185 · May 2, 2020, 07:10 PM

I was aware of these, but don't think I've ever seen one in person. Always heard the slides were prone to cracking. Sure looks very much like a Colt Woodsman doesn't it.

bac1023 · May 2, 2020, 09:07 PM

I believe I saw one once at a show. I never heard much good about them.

I used to collect oddball pistols and had quite a few. These days, I only focus on high quality stuff. Sold off a lot of junk.

**44 AMP** · May 3, 2020, 12:35 AM

Wow! makes me wonder what isn't for sale in Switzerland...for $2000??

The Kimball is in the history books, first actual pistol made for .30 Carbine, very few folks have ever seen one (if the figure of only 250 made is correct, that explains why).

I had heard production was stopped because of "technical difficulties", but had never heard they were unsafe to fire. Possibly THAT pistol is unsafe due to a defect, damage, or missing part(s)?? Or possibly none are safe and I just never heard it...

.30 carbine in a pistol is a bit rare, the Kimball didn't make it. Later there was a commercial version of the M1 carbine with a shortened barrel. pistol grip, and no buttstock...they sold some, but it was never really popular (I think it was called the "predator" ,but will have to check..)

There are some .30 Carbine T/C Contender barrels, I sure. The greatest successes have been the Ruger Blackhawk, and the Automag III.

Once again, I am amazed at the things you find and the prices. Just a guess, but I imagine an American collector would pay that much for a Kimball, working or not.

Thank you for sharing the find, and making us again wonder "what if??"

Webleymkv · May 3, 2020, 02:08 AM

44 AMP, I think the M1 carbine pistol you're thinking of was the Iver Johnson and Universal "Enforcer". As an aside, isn't it a bit ironic that guns with names that sound like action movie titles seem to so often be sub-par. If the Cobray Terminator wasn't an attempt to gloss over a junk gun with a macho name, I don't know what was.

Classic12 · May 3, 2020, 03:42 AM

Here is gun Jesus’ video about it

Sounds like it’s unsafe to fire due to a dubious solution to delay the blowback combined with a powerful cartridge

https://youtu.be/QLWu8-gFWwI

Classic12 · May 3, 2020, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Wow! makes me wonder what isn't for sale in Switzerland...for $2000??

The Kimball is in the history books, first actual pistol made for .30 Carbine, very few folks have ever seen one (if the figure of only 250 made is correct, that explains why).

I had heard production was stopped because of "technical difficulties", but had never heard they were unsafe to fire. Possibly THAT pistol is unsafe due to a defect, damage, or missing part(s)?? Or possibly none are safe and I just never heard it...

.30 carbine in a pistol is a bit rare, the Kimball didn't make it. Later there was a commercial version of the M1 carbine with a shortened barrel. pistol grip, and no buttstock...they sold some, but it was never really popular (I think it was called the "predator" ,but will have to check..)

There are some .30 Carbine T/C Contender barrels, I sure. The greatest successes have been the Ruger Blackhawk, and the Automag III.

Once again, I am amazed at the things you find and the prices. Just a guess, but I imagine an American collector would pay that much for a Kimball, working or not.

Thank you for sharing the find, and making us again wonder "what if??"

You’re right, Switzerland is a real gun country, and before 9/11, ITAR and all the craziness happening, I suspect many rare, interesting and historically significant weapons were imported here. That’s why I could buy a real Colt XM 177 E2 for example. I used to see lots of Automags at the local gun show in my youth. Thompson’s pop up for sale regularly, same with WWII German machine guns.

I also believe many collectors are now reaching an advanced age and lots of guns appear on the market. And with the younger generation possibly less interested in guns and shooting the demand is not very strong.

But there’s also the sad part when a collector deceases, there’s a risk that the next of kin just turns the guns to the police. And then it’s the scrapper.

**Mike Irwin** · May 5, 2020, 07:21 PM

"According to the ad, it was the first ever pistol produced (in very small numbers, 250) in .30 Carbine."

During World War II the Government apparently asked Smith & Wesson to try chambering N frame revolvers in .30 Carbine, but the project was shelved because of lack of military need and the fireball and muzzle blast were horrendous.

Rumor is that they also tried chambering a few K frames in .30 Carbine. I can't even begin to imagine that.

Bill DeShivs · May 5, 2020, 11:09 PM

The Kimball's locking lugs could shear off- allowing recoil to drive the slide off the frame into the shooter's face.
I have an Iver Johnson "Enforcer" pistol. It's not inferior in any way- other than it's a US carbine-type action in pistol format, not a lot different than the AR/.223 pistols popular today. It works just fine.

**44 AMP** · May 6, 2020, 12:31 AM

Quote:

The Kimball's locking lugs could shear off- allowing recoil to drive the slide off the frame into the shooter's face.

Ok. this is good info, explaining a lot. Now it begs the question, was it a design flaw (lugs not big enough for the stress) or a manufacturing flaw, (lugs not made strong enough - poor choice of alloy- incorrect heat treat??, etc)

Bit of both???

Kemikos · May 6, 2020, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Ok. this is good info, explaining a lot. Now it begs the question, was it a design flaw (lugs not big enough for the stress) or a manufacturing flaw, (lugs not made strong enough - poor choice of alloy- incorrect heat treat??, etc)

Bit of both???

According to the linked video, it was a design flaw, but the part that would break wasn't a "locking lug", but a block that would stop the rearward travel of the slide. The Kimball didn't have locking lugs at all, it was a blowback. The flaw was that the delaying system didn't work as intended, and so the slide would hit the rearward travel stop far harder than it was supposed to, deforming and eventually cracking it.

tipoc · May 6, 2020, 12:29 PM

Interesting.

Bill DeShivs · May 6, 2020, 12:34 PM

I believe the Kimball had lugs similar to a Hi-Standard pistol.

tipoc · May 6, 2020, 12:38 PM

One for sale.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/99401584...n-30-Cabin.htm

tipoc

tipoc · May 6, 2020, 12:46 PM

Useful video that answers some questions and raises more from Forgotten Weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLWu8-gFWwI

tipoc

dannyb · May 12, 2020, 08:28 PM

I was collecting a bunch of .30 carbine stuff for a number of years. This included post-war carbines assembled from left over parts, a carbine with Japanese markings made when the US was trying to help restart their economy, a couple of the Ruger single actions, and my prize - a Taurus Raging Thirty. This .30 carbine DA revolver has a 10-inch barrel and is so heavy that it can double as a boat anchor at need. Hard to find these days and very expensive.

silvermane_1 · May 15, 2020, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyb

I was collecting a bunch of .30 carbine stuff for a number of years. This included post-war carbines assembled from left over parts, a carbine with Japanese markings made when the US was trying to help restart their economy, a couple of the Ruger single actions, and my prize - a Taurus Raging Thirty. This .30 carbine DA revolver has a 10-inch barrel and is so heavy that it can double as a boat anchor at need. Hard to find these days and very expensive.

^I've heard of the Raging 30 there dannyb, I like the Raging 223, so do a lot of Fallout game series fan boys

,too bad they never materialized.

May 2, 2020, 07:00 PM	#1
Classic12 Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2020 Posts: 696	Another oddball Or odd pistol popped up for sale here in Switzerland A J. Kimball Arms Co. of Detroit, Michigan, in .30 Carbine According to the ad, it was the first ever pistol produced (in very small numbers, 250) in .30 Carbine. Production was stopped due to technical problems with the gun and it is unsafe to fire. Price is $ 2000, and I’m not buying it Since this one is American maybe some forum members know about it ? Last edited by Classic12; May 2, 2020 at 07:30 PM.

May 2, 2020, 07:10 PM	#2
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,091	I was aware of these, but don't think I've ever seen one in person. Always heard the slides were prone to cracking. Sure looks very much like a Colt Woodsman doesn't it. __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

May 3, 2020, 12:35 AM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,818	Wow! makes me wonder what isn't for sale in Switzerland...for $2000?? The Kimball is in the history books, first actual pistol made for .30 Carbine, very few folks have ever seen one (if the figure of only 250 made is correct, that explains why). I had heard production was stopped because of "technical difficulties", but had never heard they were unsafe to fire. Possibly THAT pistol is unsafe due to a defect, damage, or missing part(s)?? Or possibly none are safe and I just never heard it... .30 carbine in a pistol is a bit rare, the Kimball didn't make it. Later there was a commercial version of the M1 carbine with a shortened barrel. pistol grip, and no buttstock...they sold some, but it was never really popular (I think it was called the "predator" ,but will have to check..) There are some .30 Carbine T/C Contender barrels, I sure. The greatest successes have been the Ruger Blackhawk, and the Automag III. Once again, I am amazed at the things you find and the prices. Just a guess, but I imagine an American collector would pay that much for a Kimball, working or not. Thank you for sharing the find, and making us again wonder "what if??" __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 3, 2020, 03:42 AM	#6
Classic12 Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2020 Posts: 696	Another oddball Here is gun Jesus’ video about it Sounds like it’s unsafe to fire due to a dubious solution to delay the blowback combined with a powerful cartridge https://youtu.be/QLWu8-gFWwI

May 5, 2020, 07:21 PM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"According to the ad, it was the first ever pistol produced (in very small numbers, 250) in .30 Carbine." During World War II the Government apparently asked Smith & Wesson to try chambering N frame revolvers in .30 Carbine, but the project was shelved because of lack of military need and the fireball and muzzle blast were horrendous. Rumor is that they also tried chambering a few K frames in .30 Carbine. I can't even begin to imagine that. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 2, 2020, 09:07 PM	#3
bac1023 Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 1,106	I believe I saw one once at a show. I never heard much good about them. I used to collect oddball pistols and had quite a few. These days, I only focus on high quality stuff. Sold off a lot of junk.

May 3, 2020, 02:08 AM	#5
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	44 AMP, I think the M1 carbine pistol you're thinking of was the Iver Johnson and Universal "Enforcer". As an aside, isn't it a bit ironic that guns with names that sound like action movie titles seem to so often be sub-par. If the Cobray Terminator wasn't an attempt to gloss over a junk gun with a macho name, I don't know what was.

May 5, 2020, 11:09 PM	#9
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	The Kimball's locking lugs could shear off- allowing recoil to drive the slide off the frame into the shooter's face. I have an Iver Johnson "Enforcer" pistol. It's not inferior in any way- other than it's a US carbine-type action in pistol format, not a lot different than the AR/.223 pistols popular today. It works just fine. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

May 6, 2020, 12:29 PM	#12
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Interesting. __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

May 6, 2020, 12:34 PM	#13
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	I believe the Kimball had lugs similar to a Hi-Standard pistol. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

May 6, 2020, 12:38 PM	#14
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	One for sale. https://www.gunsamerica.com/99401584...n-30-Cabin.htm tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

May 6, 2020, 12:46 PM	#15
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Useful video that answers some questions and raises more from Forgotten Weapons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLWu8-gFWwI tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

May 12, 2020, 08:28 PM	#16
dannyb Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2008 Location: SE PA Posts: 336	I was collecting a bunch of .30 carbine stuff for a number of years. This included post-war carbines assembled from left over parts, a carbine with Japanese markings made when the US was trying to help restart their economy, a couple of the Ruger single actions, and my prize - a Taurus Raging Thirty. This .30 carbine DA revolver has a 10-inch barrel and is so heavy that it can double as a boat anchor at need. Hard to find these days and very expensive. __________________ Moron Lave (send a Congressman through the car wash)