So how many times has this happened to you???

[5whiskey]

You work diligently prepping brass, measuring powder charges, and preparing groups of several different loads to test in your rifle. Heck, even your 9 year old little girl who wants to spend every minute of every day with you loads some of them under your supervision because she wants to be a part of it. You work up some 7 odd loads. The excitement builds... you have fresh ammo ready to shoot. You can't wait to see how good of a group your rifle may actually hold. Will this be another <1/2 MOA rifle? Oh well, I'll find out next weekend.

Next weekend comes. You go to the range. EVERY SINGLE ROUND shoots almost the same as cheap factory ammo. Yup. No clear winner. Heck it appears that powder loads don't matter in this rifle so you may as well use the lightest one and save money on plinking ammo. A plus is the rifle shoots decent (AR consistently under 2moa... I'll take it even if I wanted a 1 moa rifle). Seriously? All that time measuring powder charges with care only to get the same results I got with el-cheapo cheapest of the cheap federal ammo?

Oh well, at any rate my 9 year old little girl was proud and happy watching me shoot the bullets that she "made for me." That was worth the whole outing.

[crashxl]

What sights are you using on the ar?

[pctechdude]

Been there in your position with my new AR-15 and varget. Tried everything to no avail. My old AR-15 loved 25.5gr varget with a 55gr Vmax. Now I'm loading 25.4gr IMR 8208 xbr with the same bullet. Groups are amazing, half the size of a dime is my best so far. Brass was WCC 09 (Winchester) and overall length 2.255. I've fired this load in 5 different rifles and 99% same results. The other 1% was about dime size at a 100 yards.

[steve4102]

When that happens to me, I go back to the bench and do the same thing all over again with a different powder or a different bullet.

If I have a K or two of a particular bullet, I try as many different powders as I can until I am satisfied. If I only have a 100 or so bullets, I will test them with different powders until they are gone. Then I will purchase a different bullet and do it all again.

[5whiskey]

Crash, I mounted a Bushnell Elite 3200 on it just to shoot for groups while working up this load. I usually shoot it with irons or a Trijicon reflex.

Yeah, I'm using Ramshot exterminator right now... I think I'm going to try some H322 (since it's all I can get my hands on locally) and see if that works any better. I'll finish out the Exterminator as plinking ammo and look for something else. I still thought that I would have found a powder charge that my rifle liked best... but they all shot about the same. Oh well.

[Gster]

The most important point I'm seeing in this thread, is the quality time you spend with your daughter. That's fantstic! Good on you.

[steve4102]

Yeah, I'm using Ramshot exterminator right now.

What bullet are you testing? Some bullets will never shoot good no matter how much testing you do.

[Tuzo]

Careful and exacting reloading .223 by: sorting according to headstamp and casing weight; consistent neck or full length sizing and case trimming; flash hole deburring; case neck annealing; precise mid-range powder charge; Sierra 52g and 69g Matchking HPBT; and so forth.

Rifle: Remington 700 plain Jane with Nikon scope. Results at 100 yds with sandbags: passable 1" groups with 52g but dismally disappointing with 69g. Culprit is a slow twist rate 1:12 that did not stabilize the heavier bullet resulting in keyholes and near 24" grouping.

Rifle: Savage 12 BVSS with Burris scope. On the money with both 52g and 69g Sierra Matchking HPBT resulting in 5 shot groups of less than .75 inches off sandbags. Off course the Savage is a heavy barrel varmint/target rifle. Twist rate is 1:9.

Point is the different twist rates and resulting bullet stabilization. All cartridges were carefully prepared as described. The only difference, after considering other variables, was twist rate matched to bullet weight.

[Ritz]

I agree with the other poster who said that the quality father/daughter time was the point of the exercise.

In another couple of years she'll discover boys and then you won't be able to pay her to spend that time with you again.

Enjoy it while you can.

Cheers!

[srtolly1]

I say congrats on the daddy/daughter time, Ritz is right, I missed a lot with my 4 girls.

[buck460XVR]

Over the years, I have had several firearms that shot a particular factory load as well as the loads I worked the hardest on. In the end tho, the reloads still were still much cheaper.

[mikld]

If the only reason for your reloading is to make more accurate ammo, mebbe you're missing something. Trying for a specific goal can be frustrating if you aren't satisfied with your results. I like to reload and spend time with my "gun stuff" even when I can't go shooting. I have learned quite a bit about my guns, and I enjoy the research and development of my ammo. I find reloading relaxing, stress free, and my "experimenting" is fun.

But, another thought is mebbe it's the loose nut behind the sights (no offence intended) . Mebbe you, like me, can't shoot 1 MOA even if the rifle is capable of 1/4 MOA. I know nearly every rifle I shoot can be shot better than I'm able to, so my load's accuracy is relative to my abilities...

Make sense?

[5whiskey]

If the only reason for your reloading is to make more accurate ammo, mebbe you're missing something. Trying for a specific goal can be frustrating if you aren't satisfied with your results. I like to reload and spend time with my "gun stuff" even when I can't go shooting. I have learned quite a bit about my guns, and I enjoy the research and development of my ammo. I find reloading relaxing, stress free, and my "experimenting" is fun.

But, another thought is mebbe it's the loose nut behind the sights (no offence intended) . Mebbe you, like me, can't shoot 1 MOA even if the rifle is capable of 1/4 MOA. I know nearly every rifle I shoot can be shot better than I'm able to, so my load's accuracy is relative to my abilities...

Make sense?

You make perfect sense. I'm not obsessing over getting tiny groups... after all this is a rack grade AR. I just thought I would try and find a load it likes best. Also I went back and measured my groups (eyeballed them earlier). Turns out I'm too used to shooting my Savage that'll make one tattered hole at 100 yards, so I thought the groups were bigger than what they actually are. Best group was 1.1". The worst (which probably had something to do with the nut behind the trigger) was 2.3". Most of the rest were in the middle and all under 2"... it's just that my groups didn't favor one particular load and I thought that odd. Also I've never reloaded for a semi-auto rifle before, maybe I have unrealistic expectations.

At any rate, thanks for the comments on Daddy/Daughter time. She had a blast, and I did too. It was big fun watching her pick off coffee cans at 50 yards with the .22 and iron sights. She's getting better with her pistol work as well.

[rg1]

One thing to consider is your AR's trigger. Some standard AR triggers are just too hard to control for top accuracy. A good 2 stage trigger makes a difference. May or may not improve your groups in your rifle.

[Jimro]

Use better bullets.

Jimro

[schmellba99]

Trigger would be my first thing to ask about - my m4gery wouldn't shoot very good groups when I first got it - contributing factors were trigger (it was probably 9 lbs and gritty as hell) and the rifle wasn't broken in.

A thousand rounds later and a QM Trigger with a JP spring kit (about a 4 lb pull now, which is fine for what I want this AR for) and I can shoot some pretty decent groups even with bulk 62gr FMJ projectiles and progressive press loading for plinking rounds.

[5whiskey]

Thanks for the replies everyone...

The trigger is heavy and has a hard break, but it's not gritty. I have alot of rounds on triggers in AR's, M4's, and M16's and agree that (stock) they aren't made for tiny groups. You're good to get a 1moa group, even if the rifle can do better. I'd say this trigger is better than many I've felt on AR's, but it's nothing like accutriggers, Timneys, or anything else that I'm used to these days.

I'm shooting bulk hornady 55 grain bullets... this could at least be a contributing factor. I only ordered 500 so I'm going to play around with these and the exterminator, trying different charges and OAL's, until I run dry. I might find that magic combo that'll shoot 1 moa consistently. AND... at the end of the day I'm happy as long as the rifle will hold a pretty decent group. 1.5" at 100 yards is a "good enough" in this case. The point of reloading is to shoot more for less money, with this rifle anyway. I shoot mostly bolt rifles at distance (100 to 600 or so yards). Working up loads just seemed easy for them. Heck, the FrankenSavage that I built hasn't shot a group over 1.5 moa since I broke the barrel in, even with factory ammo. My best reload group is about .28 inches at 100 yards, and that same load consistently gives groups slightly larger than 1/3 moa. It might do better but we're at the fringe of my capabilities with groups that small. Either way, I guess I'm expressing slight frustration because that's what I'm used to but this isn't that type of rifle. I'm happy with it, it's just that I had hoped to see my reloading skills swoop in and surprise me I guess. I'm gonna chalk it up to unrealistic expectations (and yeah, I'm using cheap projectiles ) and call it a day.

[Jim243]

Shooting more for less money sounds good, this will not save you money, but you might want to try the Hornady V-Max in 55 grains or the Nosler 53 grain Match hollow points.

Jim

[Jimro]

It has been my experience that accuracy doesn't come cheap.

Although once you get below 2 MOA, you can get off of the rest and start shooting from field positions and still hit the 10 ring of a reduced distance High Power target if you can do your part.

Jimro

[DannyB1954]

Edison was once interviewed about how it feels to have failed in so many attempts to create a means to store energy, (a battery). He said that he did not fail once, he learned something every time.

Back to the drawing board. Maybe your rifle likes a different OAL, or a different powder.

[JimDandy]

In another couple of years she'll discover boys and then you won't be able to pay her to spend that time with you again

If he's lucky, he can convince her the way to bring the boys to the yard isn't Kellis' milkshakes but working with her Dad on firearms and reloading. Either their parents will freak and their boys won't be allowed to see her, or they'll know he's got lots and lots of bang sticks, so they'll be prompt returning her. Win Win.

Edison Quotes that might apply:

Originally Posted by Thomas A. Edison

“Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration.”

Originally Posted by Thomas A. Edison

Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up

Originally Posted by =Thomas A. Edison

We often miss opportunity because it's dressed in overalls and looks like work

Originally Posted by Thomas A. Edison

I never did a day’s work in my life. it was all fun

[RC20]

Good memories of working with my dad before he was gone re-loading.

That said, my AR is at best a 1.5 inch with my best reloads. Maybe someday but I think the all ARs are inherently accurate thing is a myth. Oh well.

My 9mm loads don't come close to the Golden Saber factory loads. I shoot a round of that when I am done to confirm the laser is on where it should be.

Bulleseye or dead on close each time witht he GS at 15 yards. Mine are ok but not like that.

Ok, the 9mm is not intended as a target pistol and I have the factory loads in the first clip so I am good.

[JimDandy]

I'd use Factory loads for SD anyway, I've got two 5.56 factory mags on the shelf next to the AR, and three mags of the stupid but cheaper zombie-max copies of the Critical Defense next to/in my 1911. I load for cheaper practice.

[Ifishsum]

I'm shooting bulk hornady 55 grain bullets... this could at least be a contributing factor.

Those bulk Hornady FMJ bullets are most likely why your groups are no better than typical factory ammo - because that's basically what you are making. Just about any other soft point or hollow point design will probably cut your group sizes in half, if not more.