Kids and lethal force

kkb · July 19, 2009, 11:02 AM

Reading this news item got me to thinking...

Short version:

10 y/o and kid sister home alone, bad guys break in, kids run to closet, bg opens closet, boy shoots bg, bad guys arrested at hospital.

At what age do you start talking to your kids about the use of leathal force?

How would you handle your child's post incident counseling?

hogdogs · July 19, 2009, 11:25 AM

I was 6 or so when my dad showed me how to grab the single shot 12 I wasn't even able to hold on point. He showed me to grab it and hold it straight up and cock the hammer... facing the intruder let the gun slowly drop as if I were to be aiming and as it got on the target... let 'er rip and take the ride, son...
This was only for me to do if it was me and my other young sister being baby sat by "sissy"...
Brent

txbirddog · July 19, 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

At what age do you start talking to your kids about the use of leathal force?

How would you handle your child's post incident counseling?

As soon as they can be safely taught and can safely handle the firearm in question. There is not a magical age that this occurs. It may be 6 for some and 15 for others. You would have to make that judgement based on the individual.

As far as the second question, I would give them assurance and find a professional that was not anti-gun. This could be such a traumatic experience that I would not take a chance on me, a non-professional in the mental arena. Shooting/killing someone is just the beginning. It after the fight that trouble can come.

Tombstonejim · July 19, 2009, 02:13 PM

And who says the kid needs counseling. He did what he needed to do. His mother told him good job. Lets get on with life.

When I was 10 years old I had lived in two foreign countries and new how soot rifles and shotguns. I woulda shot him dead and never thought twice about it.

Sixer · July 19, 2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

How would you handle your child's post incident counseling?

I'd buy him a beer

Archie · July 19, 2009, 03:06 PM

Texas has it for training. When they are ready, and the parent must determine that. My boys knew how to check and clear revolvers when they were around five and they knew the trigger was the dangerous part about the same time for all weapons.

From there, they learned about the other guns when they were curious. They could always ask to see them and I showed them. By ten or so they were pretty safe.

As for outliving a shooting, I'll stick with Texas on this one. However, immediately, I would be reassuring the child they did the right thing. Not encouraging to shoot anyone, but those circumstances called for the action. And a professional who is at least neutral on guns. Some of the side-effects might not appear for some time.

big26john · July 19, 2009, 08:02 PM

Those poor kids. I am sure someone tought them. Who knows what that guy was going to do to them... Could have kidnapped them and much worse. It sounds like they did the right thing.

wickedrider · July 19, 2009, 08:11 PM

Where are the news reports telling the kid that he did a good thing, that he is a hero? He definitely needs counseling to explain why what he did was OK. He alson needs support from firearms people to explain that what he did was OK? How would you like to go through life with everyone afraid of you be cause you protected your family. I'm sure that there are a lot of the childs parents who don't want their kids to play with him because of what happened.

CWPinSC · July 20, 2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

At what age do you start talking to your kids about the use of leathal force?

As soon as they're old enough to understand the concept and aim and properly fire the gun.

Quote:

How would you handle your child's post incident counseling?

I wouldn't. Let a professional do it.

Brian Pfleuger · July 20, 2009, 11:27 AM

I wouldn't assume that the kid needs counseling, for one thing. Maybe, maybe not. If they did, it would be a pro-gun, pro-defense, non-psychiatrist, trained counselor. In my case, probably our pastor.

stargazer65 · July 20, 2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

At what age do you start talking to your kids about the use of leathal force?

How would you handle your child's post incident counseling?

First part I'm still working out myself. Frankly, we're off to a late start on this, however, I've talked to my 11 year old yesterday because he asked me on his own just yesterday while we were target shooting.

Second question...as homeschooling parents we would handle this ourselves with assistance from our pastor. IMO nobody is a better counselor to a child than his own parents in most normal home circumstances. (Don't send me flames about "what if the parents have issues"

)

Glenn E. Meyer · July 20, 2009, 12:01 PM

Just a note - if the child develops symptoms of a serious stress disorder it is beyond the capacity of a parent or nontrained but well meaning 'counselor' to deal with it.

Treatment is technical and needs a professional - training in cognitive behavioral methodology seems most efficacious. I understand the concern about getting some kind of preachy antigun type - discuss this beforehand.

Mr. James · July 20, 2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

we would handle this ourselves with assistance from our pastor. IMO nobody is a better counselor to a child than his own parents in most normal home circumstances.

Absolutely no flames here; rather, a heartfelt "huzzah." Well done.

The professional grief counseling industry (for such it is) has us all thinking we're abnormal if we don't feel the need for "professional help" at every unpleasant happenstance. Deal with it at home if you can; if the child needs help, seek it when and where necessary.

jg0001 · July 20, 2009, 01:02 PM

How'd he shoot the guy "in the lip" but not cause any dire damage... was this some head-turned to the side hit or did the perp have armor plated teeth that deflected the projectile? I'd also be curious to know if the BGs just fled after that or what...

Tuzo · July 20, 2009, 01:35 PM

My son first shot a .22 rifle at 5 and then began shooting very well at 10. By very well I mean safely and with proper precautions.

The shooting in Baton Rouge is a mirror image of the violent nature of many areas of New Orleans. After living in this part of Louisiana for many years there is, sadly of course, no shock value associated with this incident. My reaction is relief that 3 violent individuals will be off the streets for at least a few years. The 10 year old did well and probably saved himself and his sister from something more terrifying than the wound suffered by one of the bad guys.

Jmackk · July 20, 2009, 03:28 PM

My dad tought me to shoot his 22 revolver when I was about 7, and by tought he said heres how you load it, here's how you pull the trigger, I never actually got to goot it. Did not get to shoot my first gun till I was 8 or so.

There was a girl in Montana that had been shooting trap and stuffer since she was really little and when she was 12 Y/O two guys broke into her house(her dad was not home) and she took here 12ga trap gun and killed both of them. She whent into her dads room grabed her 12ga and called the police but they found her and tried to rush her and she shot them.

So Im not to sure if there is such a thing as "too young"(that does not mean 3 year old kids) Its more a matter of phisical and mental capablility to handle the weapon in a responsible way. Wow.... that sounded like I knew what I was talking about

Slopemeno · July 20, 2009, 03:56 PM

That "Montana" story turned out to be pure urban legend. Check Snopes.

Terry A · July 20, 2009, 04:26 PM

Today, 12:27 PM #10
peetzakilla
Senior Member

Join Date: 2008-06-25
Location: Central NY, USA
Posts: 3,511
I wouldn't assume that the kid needs counseling, for one thing. Maybe, maybe not. If they did, it would be a pro-gun, pro-defense, non-psychiatrist, trained counselor. In my case, probably our pastor.
__________________
It's Peetza Killa, BTW. As in Pizza Killer, not Pete the Killer.

One of your best replies ever PK! I agree 100%.
IF counseling was needed, it would be by a Pastor. Maybe even a service vetern. Psychiatrists can really talk people into believing there are all kinds of issues when the bottom line on this scenario would probably be guilt and / or fear.

The kid can find out at the end of the day that he did the RIGHT thing and not the wrong thing!

WhistlerSWE · July 20, 2009, 04:28 PM

Well... If it were around my parts of the world this is what would happen:

1. The kid would go into heavy psychiatrical care, get drugged up for life and sent out when he's most likely to put a knife in some other kid who's not been traumatized.
2. The father who owned the firearm would be arrested, sentenced and sent to prison for not having his firearm locked up securely.
3. The surviving bad guy would be dealt a huge amount of money from the parents' sentence.
4. The press would love it.
5. Guns would be banned alltogether in Sweden.

Housezealot · July 21, 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

As soon as they can be safely taught and can safely handle the firearm in question. There is not a magical age that this occurs.

that could not be anymore true IMHO.
I have know 14 year old kids that handled a firearm in a much safer manner than some 40 year old men.
I could sight several examles but then again I bet most of us could

orangello · July 21, 2009, 03:20 PM

That story makes me glad i don't have kids or the need to decide when to teach a little person how to save their own life. I was taught how to use a 22 single-shot rifle at age 6. When i showed myself competent to do so without endangering myself or non-squirrel others, my dad showed me how to use his single-shot 20 guage. My introduction to repeating arms was notably delayed by a few years, presumably to allow me to gain some experience and maturity. My introduction to handguns was similarly delayed. If i had to make that decision on 'when," it would depend on the child's maturity and skill level.

I am glad this doesn't happen more often and hope the youngster is given an opportunity to speak freely with a counselor of some type who will let the kid know that he did the right thing. Picking a counselor would be tough.

TEDDY · July 21, 2009, 07:46 PM

I taught my 3 kids abot guns took them to a range and had 2 gallon cans of water shot can with 30/06.thats what happens when a bullet hits very impresive later I taught them to shoot.
we did not have counsling in my day. kid died we were sorry and life went on
6 monthes latter no one remembered who he was.now they cry about him for months and remember for yrs.no wonder there is so much mental problems.
I lost a wife I cried but life went on and I married again,my friends are dying and I miss them.but life goes on.all that counsling does is reenforce the trauma.not relive it.

BlueTrain · July 22, 2009, 06:56 AM

I would not say that counseling or support groups are without value but, given some of the things that my wife and I have gone through, we eventually realized that many if not most of the same things had happened to one or more of our friends, relatives or acquaintenances. Things that people don't really care to talk about. But when they happen to you, you learn a lot about other people. Strangers, though, on the other hand, are people you don't always care to share things with. But as they say, everything happens to everyone, if there's enough time.

July 19, 2009, 03:06 PM	#6
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	Be Positive Texas has it for training. When they are ready, and the parent must determine that. My boys knew how to check and clear revolvers when they were around five and they knew the trigger was the dangerous part about the same time for all weapons. From there, they learned about the other guns when they were curious. They could always ask to see them and I showed them. By ten or so they were pretty safe. As for outliving a shooting, I'll stick with Texas on this one. However, immediately, I would be reassuring the child they did the right thing. Not encouraging to shoot anyone, but those circumstances called for the action. And a professional who is at least neutral on guns. Some of the side-effects might not appear for some time. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

July 20, 2009, 12:01 PM	#12
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Just a note - if the child develops symptoms of a serious stress disorder it is beyond the capacity of a parent or nontrained but well meaning 'counselor' to deal with it. Treatment is technical and needs a professional - training in cognitive behavioral methodology seems most efficacious. I understand the concern about getting some kind of preachy antigun type - discuss this beforehand. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 20, 2009, 01:35 PM	#15
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	10 years old sounds old enough My son first shot a .22 rifle at 5 and then began shooting very well at 10. By very well I mean safely and with proper precautions. The shooting in Baton Rouge is a mirror image of the violent nature of many areas of New Orleans. After living in this part of Louisiana for many years there is, sadly of course, no shock value associated with this incident. My reaction is relief that 3 violent individuals will be off the streets for at least a few years. The 10 year old did well and probably saved himself and his sister from something more terrifying than the wound suffered by one of the bad guys.

July 20, 2009, 04:26 PM	#18
Terry A Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Location: Washington, Pa Posts: 764	Today, 12:27 PM #10 peetzakilla Senior Member Join Date: 2008-06-25 Location: Central NY, USA Posts: 3,511 I wouldn't assume that the kid needs counseling, for one thing. Maybe, maybe not. If they did, it would be a pro-gun, pro-defense, non-psychiatrist, trained counselor. In my case, probably our pastor. __________________ It's Peetza Killa, BTW. As in Pizza Killer, not Pete the Killer. One of your best replies ever PK! I agree 100%. IF counseling was needed, it would be by a Pastor. Maybe even a service vetern. Psychiatrists can really talk people into believing there are all kinds of issues when the bottom line on this scenario would probably be guilt and / or fear. The kid can find out at the end of the day that he did the RIGHT thing and not the wrong thing! __________________ 2 Thes 3:16 "Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! "

July 21, 2009, 07:46 PM	#22
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	kids I taught my 3 kids abot guns took them to a range and had 2 gallon cans of water shot can with 30/06.thats what happens when a bullet hits very impresive later I taught them to shoot. we did not have counsling in my day. kid died we were sorry and life went on 6 monthes latter no one remembered who he was.now they cry about him for months and remember for yrs.no wonder there is so much mental problems. I lost a wife I cried but life went on and I married again,my friends are dying and I miss them.but life goes on.all that counsling does is reenforce the trauma.not relive it.

July 19, 2009, 11:02 AM	#1
kkb Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2004 Location: Western Slope, Colorado Posts: 403	Kids and lethal force Reading this news item got me to thinking... Short version: 10 y/o and kid sister home alone, bad guys break in, kids run to closet, bg opens closet, boy shoots bg, bad guys arrested at hospital. At what age do you start talking to your kids about the use of leathal force? How would you handle your child's post incident counseling?

July 19, 2009, 11:25 AM	#2
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I was 6 or so when my dad showed me how to grab the single shot 12 I wasn't even able to hold on point. He showed me to grab it and hold it straight up and cock the hammer... facing the intruder let the gun slowly drop as if I were to be aiming and as it got on the target... let 'er rip and take the ride, son... This was only for me to do if it was me and my other young sister being baby sat by "sissy"... Brent

July 19, 2009, 02:13 PM	#4
Tombstonejim Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2007 Location: Tombstone Az Posts: 202	And who says the kid needs counseling. He did what he needed to do. His mother told him good job. Lets get on with life. When I was 10 years old I had lived in two foreign countries and new how soot rifles and shotguns. I woulda shot him dead and never thought twice about it.

July 19, 2009, 08:02 PM	#7
big26john Member Join Date: July 13, 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 35	Those poor kids. I am sure someone tought them. Who knows what that guy was going to do to them... Could have kidnapped them and much worse. It sounds like they did the right thing.

July 19, 2009, 08:11 PM	#8
wickedrider Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Posts: 50	Where are the news reports telling the kid that he did a good thing, that he is a hero? He definitely needs counseling to explain why what he did was OK. He alson needs support from firearms people to explain that what he did was OK? How would you like to go through life with everyone afraid of you be cause you protected your family. I'm sure that there are a lot of the childs parents who don't want their kids to play with him because of what happened.

July 20, 2009, 11:27 AM	#10
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I wouldn't assume that the kid needs counseling, for one thing. Maybe, maybe not. If they did, it would be a pro-gun, pro-defense, non-psychiatrist, trained counselor. In my case, probably our pastor. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 20, 2009, 01:02 PM	#14
jg0001 Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2007 Posts: 551	How'd he shoot the guy "in the lip" but not cause any dire damage... was this some head-turned to the side hit or did the perp have armor plated teeth that deflected the projectile? I'd also be curious to know if the BGs just fled after that or what...

July 20, 2009, 03:28 PM	#16
Jmackk Member Join Date: May 2, 2009 Posts: 43	My dad tought me to shoot his 22 revolver when I was about 7, and by tought he said heres how you load it, here's how you pull the trigger, I never actually got to goot it. Did not get to shoot my first gun till I was 8 or so. There was a girl in Montana that had been shooting trap and stuffer since she was really little and when she was 12 Y/O two guys broke into her house(her dad was not home) and she took here 12ga trap gun and killed both of them. She whent into her dads room grabed her 12ga and called the police but they found her and tried to rush her and she shot them. So Im not to sure if there is such a thing as "too young"(that does not mean 3 year old kids) Its more a matter of phisical and mental capablility to handle the weapon in a responsible way. Wow.... that sounded like I knew what I was talking about

July 20, 2009, 03:56 PM	#17
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	That "Montana" story turned out to be pure urban legend. Check Snopes.

July 20, 2009, 04:28 PM	#19
WhistlerSWE Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 70	Well... If it were around my parts of the world this is what would happen: 1. The kid would go into heavy psychiatrical care, get drugged up for life and sent out when he's most likely to put a knife in some other kid who's not been traumatized. 2. The father who owned the firearm would be arrested, sentenced and sent to prison for not having his firearm locked up securely. 3. The surviving bad guy would be dealt a huge amount of money from the parents' sentence. 4. The press would love it. 5. Guns would be banned alltogether in Sweden.

July 21, 2009, 03:20 PM	#21
orangello Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 566	That story makes me glad i don't have kids or the need to decide when to teach a little person how to save their own life. I was taught how to use a 22 single-shot rifle at age 6. When i showed myself competent to do so without endangering myself or non-squirrel others, my dad showed me how to use his single-shot 20 guage. My introduction to repeating arms was notably delayed by a few years, presumably to allow me to gain some experience and maturity. My introduction to handguns was similarly delayed. If i had to make that decision on 'when," it would depend on the child's maturity and skill level. I am glad this doesn't happen more often and hope the youngster is given an opportunity to speak freely with a counselor of some type who will let the kid know that he did the right thing. Picking a counselor would be tough.

July 22, 2009, 06:56 AM	#23
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I would not say that counseling or support groups are without value but, given some of the things that my wife and I have gone through, we eventually realized that many if not most of the same things had happened to one or more of our friends, relatives or acquaintenances. Things that people don't really care to talk about. But when they happen to you, you learn a lot about other people. Strangers, though, on the other hand, are people you don't always care to share things with. But as they say, everything happens to everyone, if there's enough time. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.