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Old November 15, 2018, 01:05 AM   #1
Prof Young
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Mosin Nagant in Korea?

So I just watched the episode of MASH where BJ and Hawkeye get lost in enemy territory. The Korean soldiers had rifles that looked like Mosin Nagants. Would that be accurate?

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Old November 15, 2018, 01:27 AM   #2
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Very accurate. The main weapon that would have been used by DPRK (North Korean) soldiers from 1945 to about 1956 would have been the Mosin as the basic infantry arm, PPsh41 and PPS43 submachine guns and TT-33 handguns. Everything is modeled after the Soviet standard. After the People's Republic of China intervened on their behalf, a substantial amount of Zhongzheng Type 36 and Hanyang Type 88s, both of them Mauser variants, would end up in Korean People's Army arsenals. Another common rifle that would have been used by KPA forces during the Korean War would be Japanese Arisakas in all variants. Plenty of them were captured and used. After 1956, the Kalashnikov started replacing most of the bolt action guns, but not all.

The Chinese PLA Flag Raising Guard continued to use bayoneted Mosin M-44s as late as the 1984 Military Parade under Deng Xiaoping. Mosins are still used by Korean KPA militia and home guard units. The Mosin receiver was one of the most rugged, simple and effective receiver actions ever designed, and in a land where resources are conserved as much as possible, no good, perfectly functioning pieces of machinery would ever be allowed to go to waste.
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Old November 15, 2018, 06:44 AM   #3
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MN's were still in use in RSVN in the 70's.
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Old November 15, 2018, 10:47 AM   #4
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When I was in RVn everyone wanted a trophy gun to bring home. There were
very few bolt actions or even SKS to be had. Captured weapons piles were 99%
AKs of different variations. I was there in 70-71 after Tet of 68 about wiped out
VC. The NVA were armed with AKs. I bought a Mosin long rifle from a Vet a couple years ago. He was there in 65 and told me that AKs were rare then.

I've wondered what the Trophy policy of US Military was in Korean War? I don't
know any vets that bought trophy guns home with them. In RVN we got papers
from Povost to bring guns home. My son & a BIL were in Desert Storm and they
were forbidden to even pick up enemy weapons. My BIL was in a Fueling outfit
and he took pictures of weapons laying on the "Hiway to Hell" and they were all
over the ground. I think political decision to avoid the fact that a lot of these guns were from past US involvement with Iraq.
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Old November 15, 2018, 01:21 PM   #5
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Buddy was in the AF in Vietnam, brought back an unfired Mosin carbine he'd acquired there.
Said it was taken from a crate, dunno the circumstances, but he said they were encountered now & then.

The Mosin "capture" was his deer rifle after he got home, till he could afford something better.
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Old November 15, 2018, 01:38 PM   #6
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Non-full-auto guns were legally brought back after WW II. By the time of the end of the shooting phase of the Korean war, this was no longer possible. Some were sneaked back, of course.

When I rotated back from occupation duty in South Korea, in late 1955, we had to have a full inspection of our duffel bags and AWOL bags while stripped to our skivvies. "Anti-drug", we were told. Definitely no way to sneak any gun through the inspection.
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Old November 15, 2018, 02:06 PM   #7
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"...silver tip armor piercer..." Those would be illegal for hunting, everywhere. Isn't made to "knock out tanks" either.
"...forbidden to even pick up enemy weapons..." Too much risk of 'em being booby trapped. There was a great deal of discussion on this subject back when the U.S. was more actively involved in Iraq/Afghanistan. As I recall, it was a "Nothing whatever" policy. primarily due to Stateside laws.
Like Rachen says, the Mosin was the issue rifle for North Koreans. Both the Russians and Chinese supplied 'em. The NVA and VC got 'em too.
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Old November 15, 2018, 05:00 PM   #8
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Only recognized it because I have one.

I only recognized the Mosin because I have one. I shoot it just for the fun of shooting a piece of history. Even have some of the very corrosive all steel ammo. I had a scope on it for a while but decided it was better to have it in it's normal configuration. What's the point of having history in your hands if you change it up. I did put an adapter on the front sight so I could get accurate, but the original front sight is still there under the adapter. Fun gun to shoot.

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P.S. And thanks so much for all the information.
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Old November 15, 2018, 05:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Mosin Nagant in Korea?
Couldn't hold its own against the M1 Garand, even at the Frozen Chosin.
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Old November 15, 2018, 05:54 PM   #10
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Couldn't hold its own against the M1 Garand, even at the Frozen Chosin.
A bolt action rifle that is relatively stiff to operate and possibly made much more so by brutally cold weather, which also loads using a stripper clip, against a SEMI-AUTOMATIC whose ammunition is charged via a magazine? I think the results could pretty much be determined way before the encounter has begun. I don't think in CQC or even midrange skirmish where speed and volume of fire is more important than accuracy, the Mosin would hold it's own against the British Enfield SMLE, much less a Garand or M-14.

If anyone is curious to just the sheer volume of suppressive fire that can be put out by a squad of infantry with Garands, Youtube gunwriter Mag30th has a video titled "Five M-1 Firing Squad". He and a group of friends, all equipped with M-1s start firing as fast as possible. "A wall of steel", would be the best description of the scene. For an opposing soldier on the receiving end of this hail of fire, only survival and getting the heck out there would have been on his mind, not shooting back!

Here is the link to Mag30th's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syt4aL21XyA
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Last edited by Rachen; November 15, 2018 at 06:00 PM.
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Old November 15, 2018, 06:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Couldn't hold its own against the M1 Garand, even at the Frozen Chosin.
Quote:
A bolt action rifle that is relatively stiff to operate and possibly made much more so by brutally cold weather, which also loads using a stripper clip, against a SEMI-AUTOMATIC whose ammunition is charged via a magazine?
Dude, focus.

The M1 Garand is charged 'via' a JCG-approved 8-rd clip, not a magazine. You're confusing it with box-type feed-devices, such as those used for the M14.


Quote:
I think the results could pretty much be determined way before the encounter has begun. I don't think in CQC or even midrange skirmish where speed and volume of fire is more important than accuracy, the Mosin would hold it's own against the British Enfield SMLE, much less a Garand or M-14.
... Ya don't have to be Einstein to understand that.

Of those rifles you named, the Mosin design was already outdated by 1939 at the latest.
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Old November 15, 2018, 06:19 PM   #12
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Always have to get your Garand in.
Why do you do that?
Has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
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Old November 15, 2018, 07:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Dude, focus.

The M1 Garand is charged 'via' a JCG-approved 8-rd clip, not a magazine. You're confusing it with box-type feed-devices, such as those used for the M14.
Gotcha man! Always got confused as to what that "thing" that pops out with the famous "PING!" should really be called. It ain't a stripper clip and it ain't what one would really call a magazine, like an AR.

Quote:
Always have to get your Garand in.
Why do you do that?
Has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Denis
It kinda fit into the discussion though. Garands were also one of the main weapons of that conflict and faced off against the Mosins of the Eastern bloc.
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Old November 15, 2018, 09:44 PM   #14
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Nope, the issue was whether the North Koreans fielded Mosins in the Korean War.
AG has to get his beloved Garand in anywhere he can, regardless of whether it has anything to do with the subject or not.

The discussion was not "Which is better- Mosin or Garand?"
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Old November 15, 2018, 10:21 PM   #15
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Okay if he owns a CMP Garand or another 'special' Garand, like one whose previous operator had been a war hero, can he be forgiven?

AR and Ford owners sometimes are guilty of this infraction too!
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Old November 15, 2018, 10:31 PM   #16
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He could easily be forgiven if he'd simply knock it off.
Very simple.
Just not everybody sleeps with a Garand like he does.
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Old November 15, 2018, 11:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Couldn't hold its own against the M1 Garand, even at the Frozen Chosin.
Said M1 had severe issues in the cold. Everything did. MN would not have been primary Arms at Chosin.
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Old November 16, 2018, 12:39 AM   #18
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People are a trip; especially when they think they know something that the other guy doesn't. Even more so when the know that they know something....
Now, ignorant me; I was under the impression that all repeating rifles have a magazine, as if the word magazine was generic, even if the word, "clip", is not. God forbid that I mention the phrase, "45 Long Colt", unless it is to correct the errors of others that speak such blasphemy. A long time ago, when I was a kid in my Dad's barbershop, he let me know that it was bad form to correct my elders/betters, even when I knew I was right. I'm probably still trying to learn that lesson.
But concerning the Mosin-Nagant: Evidently it is one of the most successful bolt-action military rifles the world has ever seen with perhaps 37 million made. it's crude and homely but rugged and effective. From the viewpoint of the end-user, that is, the soldier, it works. Certainly there are better rifles, but in the grand strategy of war, perhaps not. What's it going to cost to train and arm your peasant and make a soldier out of him? Remember, he's perishable and likely to have a short service life, especially if he's Russian. So you arm such a soldier adequately but cheaply since he's being thrown against the Germans anyway; wish him luck as he goes to a virtual suicide mission. I'm sure the Russians could have built a, "better" tank too; but they might have lost the war if they did. Sometimes the winning strategy favors numbers over quality.
I don't have a Mosin, nor an Arisaka, nor a Lee-Enfield. I think they're all crude and ugly, myself. But they were not made for me and they were effective at the job they were intended for.
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Old November 16, 2018, 01:11 AM   #19
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The Mosin is reported to still be used in backwaters to this day. Some folks can't
afford to waste resources.

Strangely enough, when I'm going into the thick Florida swamp brush after wild boar, I have
found no better overall rifle, anywhere, at any price, than the M44. The 54R round penetrates the hide, at all angles, the muzzle blast deters charges, and the built-in bayonet is the ultimate pig-sticker.
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Old November 16, 2018, 10:48 AM   #20
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Said M1 had severe issues in the cold. Everything did.* * *

Huh?

Dude, you're clearly fact-deprived. Fortunately, being the magnanimous individual that I am, I'll happily direct you to a formerly classified and 'Secret' Army Report on the performance of weapons & equipment - including the M1 Garand - in combat in the Korea War, as gathered from interviews with the vets who used them as they were being cycled back home to the states.

Essentially, among a lot of other feedback they got on the Garand, the M1 only didn't work (stoppages) when it wasn't cleaned - not because of severely frigid temps or snow or ice. As long as soldiers could find some 'down-time' between firefights to clean the action, the M1s ran fine.

The real problem, per the Report, was the Army issued only one cleaning rod & kit per squad, not per soldier. Here's the link:

http://thegca.org/wp-content/uploads...52-reduced.pdf
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Old November 16, 2018, 02:06 PM   #21
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Good lord, yes.

Russia gave millions of Moisin-Nagant rifles to the Chinese Communists.

The Chinese then made their own (often on Russian equipment).

Both the Chinese and the Russians provided arms, including Moisin Nagants, to the North Korean military both during and after the Korean war.
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Old November 16, 2018, 02:13 PM   #22
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The M1 uses an enbloc clip. An enbloc clip holds the ammunition, and the entire unit (clip and ammo) is inserted into the magazine, where a follower provides spring pressure to feed the ammo.

When the clip is empty, it is either ejected (as in the case of the M1), or drops free (Italian Carcano, French Betherier).


It was my understanding that a lot of the cold-related problems encountered with the M1 in Korea were the result of post war lubricants that had been improperly specced and manufactured.
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Old November 16, 2018, 02:14 PM   #23
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"He could easily be forgiven if he'd simply knock it off."

Everyone will knock off the sniping.

Now.
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Old November 16, 2018, 06:42 PM   #24
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It was my understanding that a lot of the cold-related problems encountered with the M1 in Korea were the result of post war lubricants that had been improperly specced and manufactured.
Hey guys, I grew up in Alaska, look up Northway AK. In those days we were so cold the Army came down from Fairbanks (Wainwright) to do cold weather testing.

After the Korean war.

I don't trust Army reports, that is the same Army that sent M-16 to Nam.

I have worked in -40 and worse.

You do not need sub standard lubricant to fail, it just has to be cold and they are not designed for it.

Synthetic lubricants were the long term answer, they did not exist back then.

Why do you think the tolerances on the AK-47 were so loose? It allowed them to work as the Russians did indeed know what sub zero did to equipment.

Equipment back then had to be left running full time or heated up so do so.

My take is they ran the M1 dry or found a super thin lube and used that. Short term wear and tear be damned, its better it worked.

What the small arms did was hold off the Chinese end NK so that artillery and air power could kill them.

Been in -40 stuff a lot, that is beyond tough even if prepped for it, let alone combat ops.

While I don't have a bit of sympathy for the Chinese or NK, you can bet they suffered far worse and half their losses would have been weather.

Its amazing they could operate at all. That would have been part of why they did not win, they were worse off than the US.
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Old November 16, 2018, 08:19 PM   #25
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While I don't have a bit of sympathy for the Chinese or NK, you can bet they suffered far worse and half their losses would have been weather.

Its amazing they could operate at all. That would have been part of why they did not win, they were worse off than the US.
Nobody really won, and the DPRK lost. They had failed their objective, which is to conquer the entire Korean Peninsula. The ROK lost too because they had failed to seize the initiative and take DPRK territory. The UN and the Eastern Bloc pretty much ended up with the same borders before and after the conflict.

The People's Republic of China had to get involved because the war had reached the Yalujiang and could have spilled over into PRC territory very quickly. If the roles were reversed and let's say Soviet troops were getting involved in a Mexican conflict, and the shooting moved right up into the Texas border, the US Military would have gotten involved, with swift and overwhelming force too.

What this war achieved, was getting the arms race kicked off and going at a very rapid pace, and because of this arms race, the Space Age began a lot sooner.
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