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Old July 13, 2014, 06:24 AM   #26
Willie Lowman
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Yeah, those MM E series guns are kinda cool. I guess. I want the 7.62x51 mag feed conversion for mine.

One of the NFA guys at the funstore down the way claims to have one of those M249 from US Machinegun but I have never seen it.
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Old July 13, 2014, 08:24 AM   #27
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Im trying to figure out how I can get one without having to find a new wife.

I cant really blame her when she says its excessive.

Maybe if I had it delivered in a brand new car that was for her. Im not above bribery.

Have you heard reports on how the 249 works?
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Old July 13, 2014, 05:09 PM   #28
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Interestingly, one machine gun that can be switched to closed bolt firing (single shot) with a light trigger pull and which is quite accurate in that mode, is the old .50 caliber.

The .50 HB M2 is capable of hitting an individual target at 600 yards and up and even at 1000 yards a hit will definitely get the attention of the victim.

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Old July 13, 2014, 06:48 PM   #29
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The FN SCAR HAMR IAR was said to automatically switch from closed bolt to open bolt operation when the barrel heated up. I have never found out what mechanism caused this to happen or at what temperature the change from closed to open happened.
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Old July 13, 2014, 11:08 PM   #30
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Interestingly, one machine gun that can be switched to closed bolt firing (single shot) with a light trigger pull and which is quite accurate in that mode, is the old .50 caliber.
Actually, the M2HB is switched to the open bolt mode, in order to fire single shots, accurately. Now, this sounds like a contradiction, but its not.

The M2HB has a number of features that are NOT found on other machineguns, and they operate differently (and in some cases opposite to) the ones found on more modern designs.

The trigger only fires the gun. It does not hold, or release the bolt. There is a separate button for this. It is inbetween the two "wings" of the butterfly trigger.

There are three ways to operate the gun. The usual way is with the bolt catch locked down (not holding the bolt open). There is a hook on a sleeve over the buffer disc tube for this. With the catch locked down, the bolt runs back and forth, firing as long as the trigger is depressed, and the ammo lasts. Closed bolt operation.

OR one can depress the catch and the trigger at the same time, allowing the bolt to run and fire the same way.

OR, you can, with the bolt open, trip the catch, closing the bolt, and then press the trigger firing the round. When the bolt comes back, it will be held open.

This is how you shoot single aimed shots, "from the open bolt". Unlike other designs, where the trigger alone releases and fires the gun, with the M2 you can release the bolt (chambering a round) and then later, fire it. Having the gun in "open bolt" mode means only the chambered round will be fired.
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Old July 29, 2014, 01:51 PM   #31
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Redacted due to someone else possibly using my pics.
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Old July 29, 2014, 03:16 PM   #32
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DUDE!!!!!
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Old July 29, 2014, 05:08 PM   #33
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I am redacting this post to make it G rated.

Point of post was to say that the M60 trigger is to not be pulled gently like a rifle trigger, but to pull it quickly.

That's just what I read. I have no personal experience with an M60.
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Old July 30, 2014, 10:23 AM   #34
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Nice pics Tony! Besides the different stock furniture and rails, I can see several changes from the M60s that I worked with.

Looks like they took several of the complaints to heart. The carry handle is now on the barrel, and the bipod now on the gun. Good move there!

The gas piston has a much different look, and hopefully the redesign will prevent it from vibrating loose during firing, as it was prone to do with the original M60 (which is why the gas piston was tied with lacing wire back then).

The leaf spring holding the pin for the triggerguard appears to be gone, which is another improvement. Not certain about the change to a pusbutton safety, its probably an improvement (or at least somebody thinks it is).

I also see the pattern of the bandolier hanger is different. I couldn't tell from the pics but if the hanger is still riveted to the feed tray, that is a point to watch out for. The original tray was light stamped metal, and the riveted on hanger would get loose in a fairly short time. Not loose enough to fail right then, but loose enough to see the rivets "wiggle", which made it unserviceable under the GI specs. If its still made that way, keep an eye on it, and maybe get a spare (or two?).

If they kept the original cam angles on the bolt and op rod, (hopefully they did not, as these were known to be a problem, and they did fix other known problems as far as I can see) you are going to have issues with them. If they changed them, it ought to run better & last longer.

Good luck with your new gun, and if I can be of any help or insight, just ask.
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Old July 30, 2014, 03:28 PM   #35
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Old July 31, 2014, 03:39 PM   #36
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Old August 4, 2014, 01:17 PM   #37
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In the aftermath of WW2, the Norwegian Army had a large assortment of open bolt guns. MP40s, MP35s, Thompsons and Soumi KP31to mention a few... A lot of people experienced the runaway gun phenomenon when loading weak pistol ammo into these guns, who were intended to be used with "MP"-ammo. A dude I know with a collectors permit and an open bolt UZI demonstrated this with his own home made 9mm reloads.

Fun fact; the MG34 will chamber and fire 6,5x55 reliably, but not accurately
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Old August 6, 2014, 11:38 AM   #38
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A lot of people experienced the runaway gun phenomenon when loading weak pistol ammo into these guns, who were intended to be used with "MP"-ammo.
You get a runaway SMG (open bolt type) when, on firing, the bolt comes back enough to strip the next round from the magazine, but NOT far enough to be caught and held by the sear. Its a very small difference, but sometimes, the stars line up, and the entrails are favorable, so it can happen.
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Old August 7, 2014, 09:59 AM   #39
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The Thompson submachine gun, and the M3/M3A1 submachine guns, were designed around standard US military hardball ammo -- 230-gr. bullet at roughly 890 fps.

The US never produced any special "submachine gun" ammunition for use in these guns.
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Old August 8, 2014, 01:10 AM   #40
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While I have never heard of the problem with US guns or ammo, I have heard of it before, with European 9mm guns and ammo. Not common, but possible.

More common is "hot" SMG 9mm being found identified only as 9mm in batches of surplus ammo. I have personally seen a Browning HiPower that was damaged from shooting such ammo, the owner had no idea such a thing was even possible. The gun was repairable, and the owner got an education that all 9mm ammo, and guns are not suited to each other.

There is another kind of "runaway" on open bolt SMGs although usually when it happens only a single round is fired. This can happen when the bolt is forward on an empty chamber, and the gun is dropped, or shaken so that the bolt slides back, just short of being caught by the sear, but enough to strip a round from the magazine, chamber and fire it. On firing the bolt is then (normally) caught by the sear and held back.

The US M3/M3A1 guns had a fixture in the cover, which prevented bolt movement when the cover was closed, acting as a safety.
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Old August 8, 2014, 09:31 AM   #41
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My fault for mentioning the Thompson which is .45. Brain fart!

In decades after WW2, runaway gun phenomenon have happened MANY times, and as you say, it´s due to mixing MP-ammo, who often weren´t properly marked. Yeah, it´s a European problem, though I guess you can invoke the same problem with any open-bolt gun.
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Old August 8, 2014, 10:11 AM   #42
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I have heard a lot about German special 9mm for SMGs but have never seen any, and AFAIK there was no such thing. It is all marked as Pistolenpatronen 08 and, except for some special rounds for use with silencers all ball and tracer rounds, including those with sintered iron bullets, were specifically designated in German army bulletins as being suitable for P.08 and P.38 pistols and MP.18, MP.38 and MP.40 submachine guns.

Rumors for some time were that the common Patronen 08 with sintered iron bullet and a black band at the case mouth were for SMGs, but they were simply tropic pack; the band was a sealant to prevent entrance of moisture. (The U.S. did the same thing, but put the sealant inside.) I fired many of those rounds in both P.38's and Lugers, with no problems.

There was a directive that some steel case ammunition was not to be used in the P.08 (Luger), but that was because of problems with obturation in the stepped Luger chamber; there was no problem with the P.38 or the SMGs.

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Old August 8, 2014, 10:02 PM   #43
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Don't know about German SMG ammo, but Hirtenberger of Austria made a run of L7A1 9mm ammunition some years ago which was made for the Brits for SMG use "under adverse conditions". I suspect that's not the first time that a special run of SMG ammo has been produced.
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Old August 8, 2014, 10:39 PM   #44
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I have always had a problem with stories of an army issuing super powerful SMG ammo that was dimensionally the same as its pistol ammo but would blow up the pistols. I know military establishments are not always towers of intellectual brilliance, but I just don't quite understand why an army would deliberately issue ammunition that would destroy its own guns, regardless of any supposed benefits that might accrue to its use in other guns.

Of course, time must be considered. There is little doubt that the old Italian Glisenti can be damaged by WWII Italian SMG ammo, but the old pistol had long been out of service by the time the SMG was adopted. The Italian army was not concerned about any possible problems of future American gun collectors.

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Old August 9, 2014, 05:48 AM   #45
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In the case of Swedish 9mm ammo for smgs (the swedish K) it is definitly true

guys at my club would not take it even if given, apart from the glock guys that is
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Old August 9, 2014, 10:00 AM   #46
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There were some Glisentis and Brixias carried by Italians in WWII. It must have been a logistical nightmare for the bearer trying to keep the two different types of ammo separate.
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Old August 10, 2014, 09:49 PM   #47
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"I have heard a lot about German special 9mm for SMGs but have never seen any, and AFAIK there was no such thing."

American Rifleman has said in the past that the Nazis never produced any such ammo.

After 1945 under the Bundesrepublik, I don't know.
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Old August 10, 2014, 10:33 PM   #48
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There was no "logistical nightmare" for the Italians in WWII. The Glisenti/Brixia was no longer an issue pistol. If any Italian soldiers had them, they were personal weapons and the ammo was the responsibility of the owner.

The British might have used some special SMG ammo, but I doubt it would have blown up the BHP's they were also using. I will say again that I don't believe that any army deliberately issued ammunition that would blow up its issue guns and (if the stories are true) kill their own soldiers. Aside from the loss of troops, it would seem to me that there would be a morale issue if every time a soldier aimed at an enemy he had to wonder if his gun would blow up and kill him!

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Old August 11, 2014, 08:51 AM   #49
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Quote:
There was no "logistical nightmare" for the Italians in WWII. The Glisenti/Brixia was no longer an issue pistol. If any Italian soldiers had them, they were personal weapons and the ammo was the responsibility of the owner.
The .380 Beretta was adopted as the official sidearm in 1934, but both the Glisentis and Bodeo revolvers were also issued until 1945.
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Old August 11, 2014, 10:19 AM   #50
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Blowing up pistols is an exaggeration. Some manufacturers have made sub gun only 9mm ammo. What we would call +p+. Hirtenberger and IMI come to mind. A steady diet of that ammo will wear out a pistol pretty quickly.
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