Load development help

[Tex S]

I have a T/C Compass II bolt rifle with a 16" barrel 1-9 twist. 223 Rem.

Plan on trying Barnes TTSX 55gr. pills first. I have many powders on hand.

H322
IMR3031
N133
H335
8208 XBR
TAC
N135
IMR4064
AR-Comp
RL15
N140
Varget
CFE 223

Which powder should I try first?

I also have to experiment with seating depths. Any idea where to start? I know Barnes suggests starting at .050 off, but I'm thinking of loading all 50 rounds at .010 off and starting there. Then if the rifle doesn't group well I can just seat them down a bit further in .020 increments. Thoughts?

I only have 50 bullets, so I'd like to make the first try count. Any advice would be appreciated.

[nhyrum]

In what caliber? I'm a fan of vihtavouri powders, but it might not be worth burning the nice stuff for, so it also depends on what you intend to use the rifle for

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[Shadow9mm]

What caliber? I typically load to max COL in the book. Then shoot 5 shot groups seating deeper by 0.003 per group for 5-7 groups. usually they will tighten up nicely.

[Metal god]

My guess is 223 rem ?

Well I can see like me , you use way to many powders haha ;-) I use 8 of those powders , not all in 223 but most I do .

What is it you’re trying to do ? AR-comp is good , 8208 is also good . Both very temp stable and burn pretty darn consistent. If you want max velocities Varget and CFE are what Id go with . Actually that’s not true I’d go with Varget and hope I did not waste to much money of the CFE . I’m fazzing CFE 223 out of my stock , never had consistent results using it and there are others that are better IMO .

In all actuality just about all of those would work but as stated above I’d start with the ones I’ve already talked about however H335 wouldn’t be a bad choice if you’re gonna throw your charges as well as TAC . Hell I love IMR 4064 in 223 but it just does not meter well so I prefer the shorter cut stick powders like ARcomp , 8208 , varget and my go to 55gr plinking powder is H-335 .

I think starting .010 off is fine but I normally start .020 . However 10 thou is close so be sure you’re not jamming any do to inconsistent seating depth

[gwpercle]

Comon Tex ... help us out a little , my crystal ball's not working and when reloading ...Details Matter !
I refuse to guess at these kinds of details .
Gary

[Tex S]

Well, I was doing my best to be thorough and forgot the most important part. The caliber is 223. I’ve edited the original post.

[Metal god]

You edited it!!! , Now we all look like we can't read lol

[Unclenick]

Now you're catching on!


Tex,

At 0.010” off the lands you are getting close enough for the pressure to be on the rise toward what it becomes on contact with the lands, where it is usually around 20% higher in the lands than 0.030" or so back. So keep a close eye out for pressure signs as you work up from the minimum. On occasion, some bullets have been found to prefer to be as much as 0.150" off the lands, so you have a way to go.

[cdoc42]

Why would Barne's suggest starting off at 0.05"?

Might it be that pressures are potentially too great with pure copper bullets if seated too closely? Might it be that there is simply too much variability in bullet base-to-ogive measurement in pure copper bullets manufacturing?

[44 AMP]

Might it be that pressures are potentially too great with pure copper bullets if seated too closely? Might it be that there is simply too much variability in bullet base-to-ogive measurement in pure copper bullets manufacturing?

Might it be that they want the bullet to have a "good running start" before running into the lands??

Copper is harder than lead. The rifling digs into the bullet, this compresses the bullet a bit. The amount of pressure needed to perform that squeeze is one thing when the core of the bullet is lead and something else when it is solid copper.

I find the idea of a 1-9 twist 16" .223 bolt action to be a bit odd. Sure, its handy but does it need to be? Is that worth losing the velocity that the short barrel will cost you? If yes, great. but if its a varmint rig or a bench gun, why go so short?

[HiBC]

If you are using 55 gr bullets try H-335

Its not the only good powder but it will do.

I personally had great results with a 16 in one in nine twist bbl using 69 gr match boat tail hp's .With those bullets,Varget was great.

I prefer the BC and slightly better wind bucking of the 69 s and they work fine with 1 in 9.

Update: reviewing post, I'm having second thoughts. I have not been loading solid copper bullets. Solid copper bullets would likely change things.
As I do not have experience loading copper bullets,Its a bad idea for me to offer copper bullet loading advice.
My apologies.

I do stand by my suggestions for conventional cup and core copper jacketed bullets.
You list a number of good powders that are "in the zone"
If you were loading conventional cup and core bullets, one very good choice is H-335 for 55 gr bullets.
Copper bullet rifling twists tend toward faster,as the bullets are longer for weight. I like 69 gr cup and core for a 1 in 9 barrel.,and in my experience with a 16 in AR, Varget loads very well with that combination.

That gives important context to my earlier recommendation.

[std7mag]

My issue was the how far off the lands, what powder, followed by the was just planning to load all 50.

I'd start at Barnes recommended 0.050" off the lands.
Pick a powder, and do a ladder test.
Then play with your seating depth to get your smallest groups.

One thing at a time!

With that weight bullet, i'd look at 8208, Varget, N135, RL15, ARCOMP.

If you have an AR, i'd load up with the CFE223, and plink away till it was gone, and not buy anymore. Load development done at cooler temps have proven to cause pressure issues at higher temps.

[hounddawg]

what std7 mag said

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Tex S

I have a T/C Compass II bolt rifle with a 16" barrel 1-9 twist. 223 Rem.

Plan on trying Barnes TTSX 55gr. pills first. I have many powders on hand.

H322
IMR3031
N133
H335
8208 XBR
TAC
N135
IMR4064
AR-Comp
RL15
N140
Varget
CFE 223

Which powder should I try first?

I also have to experiment with seating depths. Any idea where to start? I know Barnes suggests starting at .050 off, but I'm thinking of loading all 50 rounds at .010 off and starting there. Then if the rifle doesn't group well I can just seat them down a bit further in .020 increments. Thoughts?

I only have 50 bullets, so I'd like to make the first try count. Any advice would be appreciated.

My advice, buy more bullets.

[Tex S]

My advice, buy more bullets.

This would be the best approach, but I can't find any in stock.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


I pulled part of what I said earlier out of an abundance of caution. I'd forgotten Barnes recommends 0.050" as a minimum jump and that they've observed some of their bullets preferring as much as 0.200" jump. As I have pressure measuring gear, I have to say I have not found closer jumps problematic with the banded-bearing surface solids, but I also coat these bullets (either moly or an hBN coating will reduce start pressure). If you will experiment outside the manufacturer's recommendations, as always, work up slowly and watch for pressure signs, sticky bolt lift in particular in your rifle, and I think it's a good idea to use a chronograph to watch for a load change toward higher pressure (closer bullet seating or heavier charge) to grow velocity SD and ES, which is a sign of erratic performance, which is hazardous and to be avoided, or to produce a drop in velocity which is a pressure sign and usually is accompanied by sticky bolt lift (just not always).

Note that, in general, the old smooth-sided solids (I have some old Barnes solid bronze bullets that have no surface features, for example) will significantly increase start pressure. QuickLoad uses 3525 psi for standard jacketed bullets and 6525 psi for plain-sided solids and steel core FMJs. But the TSX and TTSX have banded bearing surfaces and get 4300 psi default start pressure in QL. So the bands do reduce the start pressure significantly. Moly and hBN coating bring it down about 40%, typically, getting you pretty well around the issue.

[Seedy Character]

I like 4064 with Barnes bullets. Have looked at the RL-15 data and find it interesting, but haven t found the powder to try.

Solid copper bullets can raise pressure dramatically if seated to close to the chamber. Follow the Barnes recommendations.

Build a ladder and see what your rifle likes.

[Nathan]

I think his real question is how to determine the best powder….I think you need to do an X,Y type load development as your second step.

First, I would guess my way down to 3 powders, but you can use as many as your want.

Then shoot a ladder at max oal you intend to load to find max load. I would probably seat these to 0.020 off lands, max mag length or something like that. Then I shoot 1 per charge weight until I get too high velocity, heavy bolt lift or excessively flattened primers. I stop there I try to shoot 10-15 shots into separate POA’s. At my first excessive pressure, I stop. I make a note and reduce by 1-2%. Then I look for shots where comparing 2-3 target they had similar poi. That tells me where a POI sweet spot will be.

Normally, I load 3-5 OCW groups around each sweet spot to find a velocity node with best sd.

In this case I would load 3 groups of 5 for each oal at a given charge wt for 3-5 charge weight. This should tell you which powder.