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Old September 14, 2018, 09:43 AM   #1
mccraggen
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So I shot my first deer with my 25-06, didn’t happen like I expected...

So I’m from Australia and we have deer here, but they aren’t treated as deer in USA they are like a hybrid of game and pest since introduced. So we spotted one at 70 yards, very unusual I know and I quickly grabbed my 25-06 with 117 grain game kings and fired one just behind the shoulder. It hit and the deer looked a bit woosy but continued on for a good 20 seconds before finally toppling over. I expected more spectacular results from a bullet that size at that speed at that range. Double lung hit for sure. Has anyone else seen something similar?


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Old September 14, 2018, 09:57 AM   #2
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Not too unusual. It's a dead deer walking. They know something has hit them, but they have no way to rationalize what has happened. They continue as far as they are capable, then death catches up with them.

If you had a clean pass through, the devastation of that bullet at that speed may have all be internal with minimal exit. Did you cut it open?
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Old September 14, 2018, 10:05 AM   #3
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When a deer is hit they get a rush of adrenaline. It's not uncommon for them to walk a good distance. If you walk up on them and their eyes are closed, they have passed out from the blood rushing to the wound. Issue another round to kill them because they are not dead. Deer die with their eyes open.
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Old September 14, 2018, 11:18 AM   #4
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Sometimes they drop straight down, and sometimes not. Generally, I shoot them in the heart/lung area, and they often run a short distance. That’s only a problem if the deer happens to be standing next to a big briar patch and has time to seek cover there before passing on.
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Old September 14, 2018, 11:25 AM   #5
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Deer can do some pretty incredible things in the few seconds before they expire. My deer last year ran, I dunno, 50 yards after being shot directly through the heart. I've heard stories (and read some on here) of deer going much farther than that with equally lethal wounds.
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Old September 14, 2018, 12:13 PM   #6
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50 yards is nothing. Deer regularly run far more than that. It's amazing how much damage a deer can take and not drop dead. Read a story in one of the gun rags, long ago, where the writer came upon a deer and saw a magpie fly out of a big hole in the deer's side. There was another about a deer with one leg shot off. Deer survive for a living.
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Old September 14, 2018, 12:17 PM   #7
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yeah not suprising, you could probably shoot 10 deer under the exact same circumstances and have 10 completely different results. Ive seen deer hit with a 45-70 and run off not to be found and ive seen them drop like they were poleaxed by a 243
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Old September 14, 2018, 05:29 PM   #8
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It seems to be more pronounced with hogs than with deer, but if you don't do direct or indirect significant damage to the CNS, expect the animal to run, or at least not to drop over immediately.

The only magic switch to immediately drop an animal is the CNS and in particular, the upper CNS. You can damage it indirectly through hydrostatic shock that causes brain or brainstem damage, shutting down the deer immediately. You can indirectly damage the CNS via hydraulic shock where the shock wave essentially stuns/bruises the spinal cord and the animal drops in place, unable to run, and expires as a result of the other damage done to it (cardio or pulmonary damage). Or you can directly drop the animal by a shot that physically hits the brain, brainstem, or upper spine, dropping the animal in place, the animal either dying from the CNS damage or again, immobilized until it succumbs seconds later to cardio or pulmonary damages.

A heart shot or double lung shot is not necessarily a shot that is going to immediately drop the deer. It will continue to function until the brain is starved of oxygen and/or the body starved of adrenaline.
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:13 PM   #9
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The big old buck I shot with a 25/06 in 2016 hardly flinched at the shot. I saw the hit and was confident he was dead so didn't shoot again. The buck walked off maybe 30-40 yards turned 180* and then just rolled over. No real difference vs a similar sized buck shot in nearly the same location and bullet placement by Son's 280 Rem.
Both were dead but had't got the memo yet.
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:33 PM   #10
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One thing I've learned about killing animals, deer especially, is that outside a CNS hit you can never anticipate the results. I've made text-book double lung shots and had them drop like they got struck by lightning and I've blown the heart into pieces and had them run 100 yards plus.
I once saw one shot through the rump with an expandable broadhead that didn't expand, and the deer went 30 yards and dropped dead.... another that was shot through the rump with a .243 Barnes TTSX that penetrated nearly 4 feet diagonally and stopped just inside the opposite shoulder, destroying the right, rear hip, a great deal of the guts, the diaphragm, the liver, the back of the left lung and damaging the front left shoulder... and the deer was still alive when found a good 45 minutes later.

Nowadays, if I have a standing, reasonably broadside shot, I go high-shoulder. I haven't had one move after the boom yet.
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
So I shot my first deer with my 25-06, didn’t happen like I expected...
I'm assuming you expected it to drop on the spot and right now. Well, surprising as it might seem, it usually does not happen that way. …..

Not to long ago, this was discussed, in this forum at some length and the replies were rather consistent. There are very few drop-dead shots. Personally the fastest drop-dead shot I ever experienced, was a nice buck. The shot severed the lower part of his heart. The buck still took four steps before it fell over. There are a number of hunters who will boast about only taking head shots. That is their way and not mine. ……

Take solace in the fact that you took an ethical shot that most hunters would take.. …..

Be Safe !!!
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:54 PM   #12
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I shot a doe last season with my 7mm-08AI and a 140gr Berger VLD Hunting at 413 yards.
Broadside shot through heart and both lungs.
Heart was literally in 2 pieces and mush.
Somehow she turned 180" and made it 20 yards.
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:56 PM   #13
mccraggen
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Yeah he had a lot a frothy blood coming out of his mouth, pretty sure double lung, the bullet didn’t exit. He barely reacted for the first 10 seconds then I could tell something wasn’t right for him and he just sorta rolled over and didn’t get back up. Crazy to think how it can take that much damage and still be just walking around as usual.


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Old September 14, 2018, 07:07 PM   #14
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Most any animal with that shot placement has about 1 minute to live and about 15-30 seconds to stay on their feet. What they choose to do during that time varies. Some fall down and die. Some run, and can run quite the distance in that time. Others stand around and then fall over

A lung shot doesn't really do a lot of damage. No more really than an arrow in the same spot. They are drowning from blood inside their lungs and that can take a while.
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Old September 14, 2018, 07:24 PM   #15
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congratulations on getting the deal, hope it is good eating.
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Old September 14, 2018, 08:06 PM   #16
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To drop a deer instantly, you have to either disrupt C.N.S., or break major bones. (There are a few exceptions)
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Old September 15, 2018, 05:44 AM   #17
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We hunt a straight old County Road, then a haul road and snowmobile trail. Heavily-wooded on both sides, we can see 500 yards, but only shoot deer to 400. At those circumstances, it's important to anchor deer in the road, because if they run even 50 yards, we may not find them.

That said, I use a quick-opening, but penetrating bullet in my .270 Win and aim for the shoulder/lung area to drop them in the road. Once, holding the rifle down hard on the permanent blind's frame, I actually watched the bullet strike the deer where I aimed...at about 250 yards. Amazing!
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Old September 15, 2018, 10:21 AM   #18
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The energizer bunny

Take the batteries out of the energizer bunny....he won't move an inch.

Taking out the CNS is similar. We run on electricity, same as a deer. Tiny electric pulses from our brain operate our muscles. Disconnect that, 100% guarantee everything stops, instantly.

Destroy the heart, the lungs, the liver, the whole shebang....the brain can keep sending those tiny pulses to the muscles for some seconds.

Bang flop means you disconnected the batteries! IE: you disconnected the brain from the muscles.
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Old September 15, 2018, 10:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Deer can do some pretty incredible things in the few seconds before they expire. My deer last year ran, I dunno, 50 yards after being shot directly through the heart. I've heard stories (and read some on here) of deer going much farther than that with equally lethal wounds.
We were hunting with a friend, shot a doe with his 7mm mag. Took the heart completely out, fist sized exit wound. It ran for over 150 yards, crossing a gravel road near the farm. The blood trail was large enough crossing the road neighbors stopped and asked where all the blood came from for days after. They are amazing sometimes on what they can do, other times they drop with out another twitch. I've shot many deer over the years and I don't think anyone can predict how they'll respond.
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Old September 15, 2018, 10:47 AM   #20
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I prefer a broadside high shoulder shot on deer with a rifle...because it has a bunch of CNS nerve bundles at or near that location.

"The shoulder shot is the way to go if you have a bullet that will break bone reliably, and if you're shooting something big that may object to the proceedings."

"It is critical for every hunter to master the shoulder shot, as it is the most effective and humane means of killing a deer with a firearm."

Source: http://wiredtohunt.com/2009/11/13/th...shoulder-shot/
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Old September 15, 2018, 10:52 AM   #21
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Just thought, since we are talking about deer hunting and whether or not they drop or run, that I should mention the secondary use of a rangefinder. Once you have fired the rifle, range to the spot where the deer had been standing. Then stroll to where you think that spot was and range back to where you fired from until you find that exact range. It’s a fast efficient way to find the blood trail. As I found, many times, it can be tough to find the exact spot where the deer had been when the shot was fired.

I used to use a landmark approach, such as the deer was standing next to that small dark green bush. Well, when you walk out 250 yards, the bushes all look alike. Which bush was it?
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Old September 15, 2018, 01:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
I prefer a broadside high shoulder shot on deer with a rifle...because it has a bunch of CNS nerve bundles at or near that location.

"The shoulder shot is the way to go if you have a bullet that will break bone reliably, and if you're shooting something big that may object to the proceedings."

"It is critical for every hunter to master the shoulder shot, as it is the most effective and humane means of killing a deer with a firearm."

Source: http://wiredtohunt.com/2009/11/13/th...shoulder-shot/
Hmmm, looked at the article. The X for the proper shot placement is not on the brachial plexus he says to be shooting. The brachial plexus is the nerve complex ventrally coming out of the last 3 cervical and first 2-3 thoracic vertebrae. His shot placement is farther back by the 5th thoracic vertebra, missing the brachial plexus, though just under the spine, possibly close enough to cause damage hydraulically to it, effectively rendering it temporarily or permanently disabled, at least until the deer succumbs to the damage otherwise inflicted to the lungs and such.

His shot will "break bone," clipping the scapula, maybe both, ribs, missing the spine. Scapular blade breaks where he indicates are painful, but not necessarily crippling.

From the article...
Quote:
David E. Petzal, when speaking of the shoulder shot says, “Almost always, when a critter is struck there and the bullet does its job, the beast goes down right away or within a few steps.
If he would have destroyed the brachial plexus as claimed, the deer would not be walking. The nerves of the brachial plexus control forelimb movement.

This isn't to say that the shot isn't good for killing deer. I just think the guy is coming up with post hoc medical sounding rationalizations. He needs to be shooting farther forward to hit the brachial plexus. He needs to be shooting lower down and forward and breaking the shoulder blade at the joint with the humerus or breaking the humerus for the shot to be crippling.

To claim the shot will break bone sounds really good, but pretty much any shot through the rib cage is likely to break some bone. In and of itself, that just isn't sufficient. You need to break specific bones and some need to be broken in specific areas if you actually are talking about keeping the animal anchored.

He goes on to say...
Quote:
So remember, for the quickest, most effective and humane killing of a deer, aim at the shoulder, hold steady and put the hammer down. The buck of your dreams should be dead in his tracks and waiting for your arrival.
This is wrong. The quickest and most effective and humane killing of a deer is a shot through the brain or brain stem. It may not be the easiest shot to make, but it is an absolutely effective shot.
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Old September 15, 2018, 04:50 PM   #23
Brian Pfleuger
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Since we can't x-ray deer before shooting, I personally line up the shot even with the front edge of where a vertical leg would be and ~3/4 up the body.

I haven't a clue which vertebrae is there, precisely, but I can tell you that no deer I've ever hit with that aim point has taken a single step after. Rarely do they so much as lift their head or kick afterword.

I have no qualms about the good old double lung shot either. A properly placed bullet fired from a sufficiently powerful cartridge has never failed to leave a sufficient blood trail for me, be it 5 feet or 150 yards.
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Old September 15, 2018, 04:55 PM   #24
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That's why I shoot for the neck. They drop like a sack of potatoes.
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Old September 15, 2018, 09:50 PM   #25
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Why is it many who buy a fast stepping cartridge automatically shoot the heaviest bullet weights available on all size of animals?_??
Seems to me someone looking to buy a 1/4 bore 06 would study up on a cartridges reputation. {found in most reputable hand loaders published books} Makes no sense loading 117 gr for deer size{thin skinned} animals. On this particular occasion the 117 bullet weight has little benefit over a 150 gr bullet fired in a chambered labeled> 30-06.

Want to see head turning 1/4 bore 06 bullet performance mccraggen?
87 & 100 gr S/SP__ both are known to garner its shooter a smile. Be it paper targets or deer size animals. 117 gr. not so much due to its much lower muzzle velocity.
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