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Old September 14, 2018, 09:08 AM   #26
F. Guffey
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Well it seems no conclusion can/has been reached and it goes on.
That is true if "BECAUSE" is an answer; as in just because or because I say so. There are answers with rational as in 'I choose control feed because...etc.". And then there is memory work as in the firing pin hits the primer and then the whole she-bang takes off for the front of the chamber until the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber.

The she-bang includes the powder, bullet, case and primer. I am the one that appreciates a killer firing pin.

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Old September 14, 2018, 09:56 AM   #27
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??????? Did someone say something about the "H" word?????

With my push feed rifles,the spring loaded ejector plunger preloads the cartridge forward against the shoulder...unless,of course we are using the gunhack extractor headspace system.

My CRF rifles have the bullet lift off the feed ramp,into the chamber while the case head is still below the rails. So the cartridge is tilted about 10 or 12 degrees before the case head rises up the bolt face under the extractor.

The geometry of this requires extra space between the bolt face and the extractor.Maybe more than .016.Could probably check that with a feeler gauge.

The Worlds Foremost Expert on Headspace relies on an extractor to headspace an out of spec old relic? OK. Could be.

Seems like a poor practice for theWorlds Foremost Authority on Headspace and The Only Reloader Who Understands

Last edited by HiBC; September 14, 2018 at 10:01 AM.
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Old September 14, 2018, 11:18 AM   #28
F. Guffey
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The geometry of this requires extra space between the bolt face and the extractor.Maybe more than .016.Could probably check that with a feeler gauge.
I wouldn't and don't, I could use a head space gage like the go-gage, no-go gage and the field reject length gage; for most reloaders that would be impossible because the go-gage is .011" to short, the no-go gage.006" to short and the field reject length gage is .002" too short.

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Old September 14, 2018, 11:21 AM   #29
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And then there is that part about starting the case with the shoulder of the case against the shoulder of the chamber. I have no ideal why you would be proud of that; I believe placing the shoulder of the case against the shoulder of the chamber before pulling the trigger is a bad habit.

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Old September 14, 2018, 11:37 AM   #30
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And then there is that part about starting the case with the shoulder of the case against the shoulder of the chamber.
Try reading it again,slower.I typed it slow.Try to understand what it says.I was not bragging. I was observing. While I understand you believe in headspacing on the extractor,a rimless bottleneck cartridge is supposed to headspace on the shoulder.

I'm going to type this slow,too.Most push feed bolts have a spring loaded plunger ejector.It pushes the cartridge forward till it stops.
So unless the shooter uses Mr Guffey 's(worlds foremost authority on headspace)extractor headspace system for non-conforming chamber,the ejector plunger will hold the cartridge shoulder against the chamber shoulder.

As "Gramps",played by Walter Brennan on "The Real McCoys" used to say....

"No brag,just fact"
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Old September 14, 2018, 12:18 PM   #31
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Aside from reloading.....
There is no best.
Why would you think the market SHOULD choose which one is?

The CRF will be more reliable under a wider range of conditions.
Where dangerous animals right in your face and harsh conditions are not involved, the push-feed functions just fine.

Accuracy differences between the two are minor & most people would not even notice.
Pick one for your conditions & run with it.

I have two CRF Rugers and one CRF CZ for most field conditions, I consider them a better choice across the board for my needs on animals.
I also just finished a Remington 700 SPS push-feed build, but its role is NOT close-range defense.
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Old September 14, 2018, 01:02 PM   #32
F. Guffey
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Try reading it again,slower.I typed it slow.Try to understand what it says.I was not bragging. I was observing. While I understand you believe in headspacing on the extractor,a rimless bottleneck cartridge is supposed to headspace on the shoulder.
Again, I have said many reloaders do not understand the sequence if events that take place between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the case. The worst place for the shoulder of the case to be is setting against the shoulder of the chamber when the trigger is pulled.

And then there is the L.E. Wilson case gage; it has been with us for over 70 years. The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool, the Wilson case gage came with instructions. I want my cases to get longer from the shoulder/datum to the case head without stretching between the case head and case body. If the shoulder of the case starts at the shoulder of the chamber before firing the only place for the case to stretch is between the case head and case body. And? I believe that is a bad habit.

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Old September 14, 2018, 01:15 PM   #33
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You are the one who does not understand,Guffey.Maybe that is why you think you are the only one who does.
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Old September 14, 2018, 01:15 PM   #34
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Controlled feed is absolutely safer than push.

Push feed requires you to be vertical and straight, yet controlled feed will be held in place all the way in.

Push feed will allow your brother in law to slide the bolt back and forth a few times, leaving a round in the chamber that would have gone off if it hadn't slid back out.

Push feed is cheaper and requires much less machining of parts. Get used to it, because when have you ever seen a company go out of its way to create a better product when the goal is bulk sales?
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Old September 14, 2018, 01:56 PM   #35
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I guess when Win made push feed it was OK same new push feed one. I think Cabelas has $100 off

https://www.cabelas.com/product/WINC...LE/1994650.uts
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Old September 14, 2018, 02:01 PM   #36
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You are the one who does not understand,Guffey.Maybe that is why you think you are the only one who does.
Understand what? The only one that knows what?

No one has offered anything in the way of information on the sequence of events. All reloaders have taken the silly saying about the firing pin driving the cartridge forward until the shoulder of the case collides with the shoulder of the chamber as being the gospel. That silly saying got its start when a reloader watched a cartoon/illustration. Because we do not have inquiring minds with shop skills it made sense to most. I insisted there was too much left out and the silly saying did not apply to all action designs.

Is any of that a problem? Yes, we have too many reloaders that believe they can push the shoulder back without bulging the case and they do not understand I can have a new shoulder on my case that was not there when I started and the old shoulder became part of the case body.

And a lot of that can be explained if the reloader understands the shoulder on my case did not start out at the shoulder of the chamber. Again, there is a chance reloading is not for you.

And still there are sequences that are omitted and or left out.

Again; I can use a go-gage to check the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face, I can use a no go-gage to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I can measure the length of the chamber with a field reject length gage; even if the chamber is longer than anyone of the gages.

I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face in thousandths; it is not possible to Google methods and or techniques. There was an old smith that was catching it from all sides, so I decided I would research the complaints against him. I decided they did not have a clue, they did not know and or understand what he was doing and I can only guess because they were so rude he did not share his methods and or techniques with them.

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Old September 14, 2018, 02:21 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by std7mag View Post
Erno86,
What the heck are doing with the rifle upside down?
I'm tell'n ya, your doing something wrong! :

I have both, and like both.

When it comes to hunting dangerous wild critters: I'm a rough and tumble sort.
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Old September 14, 2018, 02:34 PM   #38
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Guffey,I explained what I said,in simple terms.
You replay the same egotistical mantra over and over and over.

Everyone else has it wrong,you have it right,you hold the holy grail.
But then you can't even say what you are holding.It is some mystery.
If I use my candle to light your candle,it does not hurt my candle.

What I do has been making ammo for 50 years,and I don't tolerate having a rifle with .016 headspace. Are you helpless to fix it?

You contest the idea that the shoulder or belt or rim or case mouth serve to stop the forward motion,what holds a case head against the bolt face during the firing pin strike? Superglue?

Yes,the stretch occurs where stretch rings show up. Yes,the case head blows back to the bolt after the case obturates.Yes,the shoulder staysagainst the chamber shoulder.
Yes,we measure and adjust to minimize heas clearance,thd therefore case stretch.
The ignorant reloaders have known that as long as they have been buying case gauges ,precision mics,etc and fine tuning die settings.
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Old September 14, 2018, 05:26 PM   #39
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Push-feeds are for benchresters and those 'Sunday afternoon snipers' you encounter on lazy Sunday afternoons at the range.

CRF actions are for real riflemen and dedicated hunter-types who go afield after big and/or dangerous game - the sort of animals that can charge, chase, bite, claw, and otherwise maul you into oblivion.

Word to the wise.
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:50 PM   #40
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That is another reason that Ruger makes the #1 and #3......for those that can't decide or for those that don't have the foggiest idea.
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Old September 14, 2018, 07:02 PM   #41
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"The worst place for the shoulder of the case to be is setting against the shoulder of the chamber when the trigger is pulled."

That's 180 off from everything I've ever read or heard, these last 70 years. Headspace is the gap between the bolt face and the base of the cartridge when the shoulder of case is against the shoulder of the chamber.

I bought my Sako and my Wby MkV in 1971. Both push-feed. Never short-stroked. Killed a bunch of deer, mostly while cross-country walking or else sneaky-snaking. Only targeting has been on my front-porch bench rest for sight-in or load-development.

I've messed around with Springfields, Enfields and 98s. Never saw where CF vs. PF was worth worrying about.
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Old September 14, 2018, 11:33 PM   #42
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Combo does both!

I had traded for a Winchester Model 70 in 300 WSM several years ago. This model had the black synthetic stock and mat finish. Overall, a decent rifle. What was unusual about this rifle was the extractor and feed system. For the world this rifle looked like a push fed. However, the ejector was fixed working through a slot in the bolt face. Cartridges would feed up through magazine under the small extractor in the right locking lug. This feature was advertised by Winchester at one time. A combo push controlled feed. It worked that way. The rifles I have seen with this system have been in WSM calibers.

As an aside, do not fall into the voodoo reloading or headspace discussion. It gets deep fast. What works is, "You're probably right..." Next, you move back onto the topic. Don't buy into his crap!
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Old September 15, 2018, 09:39 AM   #43
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It seems we have a well-beaten dead horse here, but I want to get my lick in. For me, it's all down to preference. I mostly have CRF because it is what I prefer. Don't tell anyone, but I do have a push feed M70 22-250 in my safe. It is very accurate and I wouldn't hesitate to put it up against a colony of vicious prairie dogs.

It's like trucks. I've had Chevy, Dodge, Ford, Toyota, Nissans. My preference is the F-150.

Jerry
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Old September 15, 2018, 10:09 AM   #44
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BBarn
Now that toothless guy removing the checkering is an image that's stuck in my mind , thanks .

F. Guffey
.016 clearance using the feeler gage .014 for a .002 clearance . That's true if your bottomed die to shellholder is giving you a .016 size . Don't most dies set from die bottomed to shellholder oversize the case .

As for push or control feed, in a combat conditions I could see the control feed would be better. Other then that both are just as good .
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Old September 15, 2018, 10:16 AM   #45
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After collecting a bunch of 98 Mausers, Springfields and old Winchester model 70s i fail to see anything special about controlled round feed.
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Old September 15, 2018, 10:50 AM   #46
F. Guffey
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F. Guffey
.016 clearance using the feeler gage .014 for a .002 clearance . That's true if your bottomed die to shellholder is giving you a .016 size . Don't most dies set from die bottomed to shellholder oversize the case .
No, when the die is adjusted to the shell holder the die is adjusted to return the case to minimum length or as the die says "full length size". 'WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?" The chamber is go-gage length; when dealing with the 30/06 chamber we are talking about .005" clearance between the shoulder of the case and the shoulder of the chamber.

Beyond that we are talking about verifying the die and shell holder. Again: I have two sets of C&H dies from El Monte, California. The dies came in a fiber box with the instructions on the bottom of the box. Part of the instructions instruct the user to use C&H dies with shell holders with a height of .125". I added deck to the height to read deck height of the shell holder.

Why? Reloaders were claiming the manufacturer of the die had to match the manufacturer of the shell holder. That problem came to an end in the late '50s.
RCBS and Pacific had no ideal the other existed even thought one manufactured shell holders/rams for the other.

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Old September 15, 2018, 11:57 AM   #47
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Thank You , even though it's off topic I have a question for you and would like to know what you would do . I measured my 308 chamber with a Go Gage an a .002 shim using a stripped bolt for closure . The Go Gage as you know is 1.630 adding .002 shim to 1.632 . My fired cases are 1.629 from expansion . I only do benchrest shooting with this rifle a Remington 700 . What would size the cases too ?

Chris
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Old September 15, 2018, 12:12 PM   #48
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As long as we're on the subject of push feed vs controlled round feed, I'd like a good recipe for banana bread.
I do love banana bread.
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Old September 15, 2018, 12:20 PM   #49
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Too bad Bart B isn't around to regulate in this wild west thread.

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Old September 15, 2018, 12:27 PM   #50
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My wife likes red cars, personally I favor blue.
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