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Old September 4, 2018, 09:27 AM   #1
adamBomb
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Criminal used store owner's gun against him

See here: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/04...olice-say.html

Some thoughts...

- self defense training would of helped quite a bit
- weapon retention training would of helped quite a bit
- if the gun had a safety would the bad guy have been able to fire? would it have given the owner time to react?
- did the store owner have a bad holster? obviously a push can cause a gun to go out of holster unless its really strapped in but we don't know...depending on the force/angle. Have you ever tried to wrestle someone with your gun in your holster to test if it will fall out or not?
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Old September 4, 2018, 09:46 AM   #2
Glenn E. Meyer
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Some thoughts - you are looking at this entirely with a wrong focus.

1. Don't get into a physical altercation over property.
2. Don't get into a fist fight with someone when you are old
3. Don't get close to an opponent
4. Self-defense training doesn't mean you win a fight. Most decent SD training is to escape and not to attack.
5. Who gives a crap about a safety or retention holsters if you are foolish enough to get in close.

I know some folks are safety fans (I hate Glock, blah, blah, blah). Well, so close up, are you sure that you would take off the safety in the stress of the gun fight? Would you draw the gun before you closed and then take off the safety? Why assume that you know there is a safety and your opponent doesn't.

If you have retention holster, are you going to put in the 3000 dry fire draws and flipping off the safety to make it unconscious, if you are foolish enough to get that close.

The store clerk, good guy and brave, failed from the beginning of the incident.

The equipment discussion is really not the point.
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Old September 4, 2018, 12:31 PM   #3
Frank Ettin
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Glenn,

I agree. This isn’t about equipment. It’s about poor tactical judgment.
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Old September 4, 2018, 12:52 PM   #4
adamBomb
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Quote:
4. Self-defense training doesn't mean you win a fight. Most decent SD training is to escape and not to attack.
As I said as my first point, self defense training would of went a long way here. SD training would of taught this guy to avoid this altercation in the first place. Call police, etc. Not sure why you assumed I meant it to be something different...

Quote:
5. Who gives a crap about a safety or retention holsters if you are foolish enough to get in close.
You are telling me you are never close to people? You never go to the store and someone is behind you in line?

The guy was pushed and his gun fell. Bad guy picked up gun and shot it. How do you prevent this? Do you train for this?...Someone pushes you...what happens next? Does your gun fall out? If bad guy picks it up, what happens? Does a safety prevent someone from firing your gun if they pick it up?
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Old September 4, 2018, 12:52 PM   #5
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The clerk is lucky to be alive. Lots of bad decisions on his part. Makes no sense to go hand to hand with a younger and unknown person.
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Old September 4, 2018, 02:04 PM   #6
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IMHO a big part of self defense training is the Combat Mindset as Jeff Cooper described it.
The question is, not can you but will you ?
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Old September 4, 2018, 02:21 PM   #7
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Glen is completely absolutely right.

My thoughts? This didn't belong in the news, it happens frequently.

What part of that is relevant to his immigration status, except the part that wants to politicize the news story?
Three lousy beers? he walked up to a hard as rocks guy and confronted said obstacle and punched him?
He did that with a weapon loose on his body?
Did he punch him to provoke an attack so he could shoot him?
Does he feel any level of shame now after taking a bullet because a guy stole three beers?

This cannot be about three beers. What is the rest of the story? The press thought that the most important thing was that the bg was a honduran immigrant. What is the rest of the narrative here? He's not wearing gang clothing as far as I can see. Seems like a person who belongs in good society. Good clothing and good hair. Why in the world would an old man decide that he has to open the can of whoopass on one out of hundreds of thieves who come through his door and steal his stock right before his eyes? What made this time any different, why this guy?

Again, yah, blah blah blah, the guy was an immigrant and three years ago he was deported.

what in the world am I supposed to gather from that part of the story that has value? what am I supposed to gain from that information? is it really information at all,, in the most practical sense? It's completely irrelevant. It was put in there to make people angry and to provide support for the far right individuals.
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Old September 4, 2018, 04:18 PM   #8
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A good holster doesn't let a gun fall out easily, granted, but trying to punch a younger, stronger man is not really a smart solution to shop lifting, either. Lots of mistakes by the shop keeper. I wonder if there might even be legal problems, in the sense that the shopkeeper was the person who initiated the conflict, or at least this phase of it. Maybe that would vary by jurisdiction, I dunno.
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Old September 4, 2018, 04:33 PM   #9
Glenn E. Meyer
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To Adam
What hand to hand technique do you recommend to disable that opponent in this situation that would be legal to use?
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Old September 4, 2018, 06:51 PM   #10
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I carry daily.

I remind myself constantly: A pistol is not a magic amulet; a device has to be operated competently to be effective. Be prepared to repel an attack. Be prepared to kill if the attacker so chooses.
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Old September 5, 2018, 07:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
What hand to hand technique do you recommend to disable that opponent in this situation that would be legal to use?
The shop owner shouldn't of confronted the guy in the first place so this shouldn't of happened. When his gun dropped there was no chance to defend himself because the bad guy just had to pull the trigger. As far as what is legal vs what is not that would differ by state.

Regardless, that still doesn't mean we shouldn't be training weapon retention against an opponent that has a hold of you, pushes you, etc. Its one area a lot of people ignore because they think they can avoid someone closing the distance. Reminds me of what the karate/Tae kwon do people used to say before they saw UFC 1-5 and realized they never trained how to fight on the ground because they had these visions of how a fight should happen vs how it really does.
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Old September 5, 2018, 07:33 AM   #12
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The store owner is clearly very frail judging by the unusually weak "punch" he landed on the guy. There seems to be several bad decisions made by the store owner. I don't blame the store owner for the criminal acts of others but I do blame him for contributing to his own bad situation.
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Old September 5, 2018, 08:20 AM   #13
Glenn E. Meyer
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Quote:
- self defense training would of helped quite a bit
So the answer is NO in this case. I do think that reasonable training would have had the guy avoid the whole interaction as there is more to self-defense than Daniel-San standing on one foot.

About fighting with feeble seeming people. I consulted on a case where there was a fender bender. A stud got into it with a feeble old man. Well, the old man pulled out a little paring knife. He stuck into the chest of Study. Study proceeded to drop stone cold dead as feeble hit a major blood vessel.

If you go H2H, you never know when a knife appears and you are a human deli counter.
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Old September 5, 2018, 09:22 AM   #14
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There are many self defense related training aids, methods and techniques which can lend a service to a persons overall ability to make sound decisions.

Self defense training is not always limited to the specific act of defending. There are elements of surveying, assessing and deciding [when] and [if] any action should be taken. The concept of managing the emotion of the moment, keeping a clear head and making thoughtful decisions. There is plenty of training out there that can assist a person in understanding how best to [qualify] danger ,[when] to act as well as the forward thinking realization regarding potential consequences of action. Training which can help a person understand reasonable continuums regarding force, action vs what you are trying to overcome.
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Old September 5, 2018, 12:02 PM   #15
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self defense is not defined by fighting. It's defined by keeping yourself from being hurt. A dumpster can be a great self defense tool. A strong sense of fear. even a quick prayer couldn't hurt.

many people fail to realize that passive self defense that isn't violent and confrontational is safer than returning violence for violence.

What is the first thing that I would want? body armor. the guy might get off the first shot and I might survive. Second thing that i would want is a weapon capable of saving my life.
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Old September 5, 2018, 01:12 PM   #16
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I tend to agree that this is a decision-making and tactics problem on the part of the victim, not a "gear" issue.

Sadly, the suspect was able to react with better tactics and physical strength, an apparent willingness (experience?) to use that strength, and he also took advantage of an opportunity to gain possession and use of the victim's handgun.

Sure, we could discuss how the store owner had chosen to carry and/or position his handgun in his store, but it was his decision to engage the suspect which gave the suspect the close range opportunity (and desire?) to overpower and then shoot the victim with his own weapon.

Over a shop-lifting.
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Old September 5, 2018, 02:51 PM   #17
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Kind of sounded like the interviewer was trying to fish for customers that would say something bad about the store owner.

In any case, poor tactics aside, the owner likely didn't expect to wind up being shot. I don't think anyone who finds themselves in a physical confrontation expects to be shot.
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Old September 5, 2018, 05:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
This didn't belong in the news, it happens frequently.
Even if is a frequent occurrence,a store owner getting shot belongs

Quote:
He's not wearing gang clothing as far as I can see. Seems like a person who belongs in good society. Good clothing and good hair.
He was stealing and shot the store owner. Needs to be removed from society .

Quote:
Why in the world would an old man decide that he has to open the can of whoopass on one out of hundreds of thieves who come through his door and steal his stock right before his eyes? What made this time any different, why this guy?
You are assuming there are hundreds of thieves and there is some sort of racial motive to this ?

The store owner clearly used bad judgement and escalated the situation.He may have committed assault by throwing that punch . He should have called the police and left it at that. He did not deserve to be robbed and shot.
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Old September 5, 2018, 06:04 PM   #19
adamBomb
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Quote:
- self defense training would of helped quite a bit
Quote:
So the answer is NO in this case. I do think that reasonable training would have had the guy avoid the whole interaction as there is more to self-defense than Daniel-San standing on one foot.
No to what? That SD training wouldn't of helped? Not sure I follow.

Quote:
There are many self defense related training aids, methods and techniques which can lend a service to a persons overall ability to make sound decisions.

Self defense training is not always limited to the specific act of defending. There are elements of surveying, assessing and deciding [when] and [if] any action should be taken. The concept of managing the emotion of the moment, keeping a clear head and making thoughtful decisions. There is plenty of training out there that can assist a person in understanding how best to [qualify] danger ,[when] to act as well as the forward thinking realization regarding potential consequences of action. Training which can help a person understand reasonable continuums regarding force, action vs what you are trying to overcome.
Exactly.

Last edited by adamBomb; September 5, 2018 at 06:11 PM.
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Old September 5, 2018, 06:30 PM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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I am saying specifically that if one means some combative technique you might learn in class would have help this man, the answer is NO.

If self-defense training as later described in the quote would have deterred him from this foolishness, then yes.

My point was that talking about equipment saving you when you go stupid isn't that useful.
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Old September 6, 2018, 04:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
I am saying specifically that if one means some combative technique you might learn in class would have help this man, the answer is NO
I second that
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Old September 7, 2018, 01:00 PM   #22
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Self-Defense in terms of hand-to-hand can be useful in a true self-defense situation, but getting into physical altercation with an unknown person who is younger and who appears physically fit, is a pretty bad idea. basically, if you are fighting for your life, having a few techniques may mean the difference between life and death. Don't let it give you a false sense of security, where it ends up getting you in trouble.
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Old September 7, 2018, 01:16 PM   #23
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Sounds like a good argument for a lanyard. Jeff Cooper noted it's awfully hard to take a firearm away when it's attached to someone.
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Old September 10, 2018, 09:36 PM   #24
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A lanyard makes it very difficult to run off with the gun but if you close on the subject like he did and get yourself flattened he's still going to be able to shoot you with it.

If you have a gun and get into a fight it's a gun fight. You will either be fighting with your gun or for it.

The guy should have simply retreated and called the cops.
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Old September 11, 2018, 04:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
adambomd wrote:
- self defense training would of helped quite a bit
Since this occurred multiple times, I thought I would point out "would of" is not a contraction of "would have" (would've) which is what I'm pretty sure the OP meant. After all, "would of" is ultimately a dependent clause reliant on a third party whereas "would have" has to do with the action of the speaker.

Quote:
adamBomb wrote:
Some thoughts...

- self defense training would of helped quite a bit
- weapon retention training would of helped quite a bit
- if the gun had a safety ...
- did the store owner have a bad holster?
It seems to me that the failure here was that of the owner to use his weapon decisively. If you draw your weapon, do so with the intent to immediately engage your target. If the threat from the target isn't moral, then don't draw. If the threat is mortal, then draw and immediately start shooting the threat(s). This isn't TV. There's no time for a lengthy philosophical discussion. If you are NOT in mortal danger, don't shoot. If you are in moral danger, shoot so as to eliminate the threat. Train for this. There is no in-between. The "in-between" occurs during the time you decide whether or not they are a mortal threat. But once someone is pointing a gun at you, that time for deliberation is over.
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