The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 2, 2011, 09:36 AM   #101
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
threegun, retreat and/or get out of the way should be revised to "move out of the way."

Retreating, if you are on the path the guy is following, keeps you in his way even if he's proceeding legitimately.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:37 AM   #102
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Oldmarksman, I think its safe to say that in the scenario posted by the OP that you would do nothing until the potential threat evolves into a viable threat. One that would allow you to justify your actions in court without a doubt.

I on the other hand believe that in the scenario posted, a case can be made on my part, that the strangers actions or in this case his inaction (to stop and or speak) made him go from an unknown stranger to a threat. The only way to reasonably deal with this threat is to retreat and prepare to stop it. Unless you are willing or able to go hand to hand.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:39 AM   #103
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
threegun, retreat and/or get out of the way should be revised to "move out of the way."

Retreating, if you are on the path the guy is following, keeps you in his way even if he's proceeding legitimately.
Correct, thanks.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:42 AM   #104
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
threegun, you appear to deliberately be ignoring the fact that there are a bunch of other options in between verbal challenge and draw; this is not just limited to straight-line (and potentially still along the guy's chosen path) retreat.

You keep wanting to turn this into a "young, healthy guys may choose to go hand-to-hand thing," but that's a straw-man argument. Nobody is advocating that, not even those of us who could viably choose that approach in many cases.

I like having the option, but I generally try to avoid needing to employ it.

And, I can assure you, if somebody were to pull a weapon on me, while I'm carrying, the only way that would go hand-to-hand would be if we were too close for me to feel like I could draw. Otherwise, if I'm armed, I'm shooting when that weapon comes out. In very tight quarters, jamming his draw may be the better choice.

Again, that goes to options.

But once more, I am NOT saying "engage the guy in hand-to-hand." I am saying, use every tool at your disposal to avoid the confrontation, and if necessary to positively identify him as a threat.

And I still think there are way too many gun-happy folks in here.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:44 AM   #105
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Vanya and threegun, if what you two think I'm saying is, "I can handle him unarmed so I'll just let him close," then you two are missing my point entirely.

My point about hand-to-hand skills is that, in certain circumstances they are usable when your gun legally is not; and, in certain circumstances where your gun would be legally viable, those skills may be the edge that helps you bring the weapon into play.

I am not remotely saying, "Intentionally let a real threat close to bad-breath distance."

What I have said in this scenario is basically this - the burden is on you to prove that the guy is really a threat.
Understood about the H2H thing. My point is that once you have "moved out of the way" , if the threat continues to follow his intent is obvious. Others have indicated that this is not so.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:45 AM   #106
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
Posted by skydiver3346: If he still comes at you, then do what you think is best, (for me personally, I would shoot). Remember, he could have a knife or gun hidden that you can't see. You did your best to avoid this and tell law enforement that you felt your life was threanted and you responded to said threat.
That might work--if you are able to provide at least some evidence to support your belief, and if you are able to convince others that a reasonable person, knowing what you knew at the time, would have reasonably believed that (1) your life was threatened (the concept of A, O, J again) and (2) that you had no other alternative.

There is a distinct difference between how one may have felt and what consitutes a reasonable belief.

Yeah, if he keeps coming and you cannot get away, you may conclude have to shoot. Be aware that there are people serving long prison terms for concluding just that, not necessarily unreasonably, and not being able to prevail afterwards.

If the forensic evidence does show that you made every effort to evade him and if he does turn out to to have had a knife, you should have a reasonable basis for a successful defense of justification. If either element is missing, or if there is anything that could cast any doubt on your credibility, you would likely end up in a great deal of trouble.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:45 AM   #107
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
On a separate note, although this may not please dedicated birders like Vanya, I was always taught not to go deep into the wilds by myself. As somebody already noted, a broken leg, hypothermia, etc will kill you very quickly if there's nobody to help you.

As a side bonus, if one encounters an odd stranger, one has a buddy along.

In the wilds closer to my house, I sometimes ignore my own advice, but then I have a GPS, cell phone, and one or two large dogs.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:47 AM   #108
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Yeah, if he keeps coming and you cannot get away, you may conclude have to shoot. Be aware that there are people serving long prison terms for concluding just that, not necessarily unreasonably, and not being able to prevail afterwards.
And even more in a hole because they waited.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:48 AM   #109
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
threegun, we are getting closer to agreement.

Please note that even then, the guy may be approaching with a note that says, "I am deaf/mute, please help." He could be reaching for a notebook, not a weapon.

He could conceivably be a lost foreign type, reaching for a map, to ask where the heck he is?

(And yes, I've encountered those.)

What I'm saying is, there could be valid reasons for the person to try to pursue, and still not verbally respond. Exhaust all options before using a weapon.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 09:49 AM   #110
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
Posted by threegun: ...once you have "moved out of the way" , if the threat continues to follow his intent is obvious.
It would certainly seem so, and that is one of the several necessary elements of justification.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 10:05 AM   #111
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
Quote:
Understood about the H2H thing. My point is that once you have "moved out of the way" , if the threat continues to follow his intent is obvious. Others have indicated that this is not so.
Not sure about that. But as you say, once you've moved out of the line and he's had to change direction, something is amiss and you can act more appropriately.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 10:08 AM   #112
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Mleake, Might need to educate deaf mutes that advancing on a guy who has just tried desperately to get away from you and now has leveled a handgun on you is a good way to get shot by mistake.

The others would be more obvious I would assume.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 10:09 AM   #113
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
threegun, one would assume the deaf/mute would react to the gun. My point was that the draw itself might have been misguided/unnecessary/not justifiable, depending on the actions taken prior to the draw.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 10:10 AM   #114
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Not sure about that. But as you say, once you've moved out of the line and he's had to change direction, something is amiss and you can act more appropriately.
Thats what I'm saying as corrected earlier by MLeake. Moving out of the way usually means going in a different direction.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 10:21 AM   #115
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
MLeake, For me the draw would come only after repeated unheeded warnings to stop the advance and a tactical retreat. After that and assuming that the stranger isn't the size of MiniMe its on.

And to those who assume many on this board are "itching" to draw simply because our flags go up faster than yours, you are wrong.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 10:25 AM   #116
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
threegun, you and Vanya have discussed evasive maneuver; less-than-lethal options; observed traits.

However, others have just opted to draw because of the stranger's behavior, as described by the OP, without any indication of intermediate steps nor descriptions of what their perceptual triggers would be.

To me, those folks are gun-happy, itching to draw, etc.

If you think about it, I think you and Vanya will agree.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 11:16 AM   #117
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
I definitely agree with Vanya and for the most part with you.

In the OP's scenario it is quite conceivable that one would be justified depending on the how things unfold in the woods. Are you on a common path? Did the stranger modify his direction to assure contact? How did he respond to your command and or draw?
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 11:19 AM   #118
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
I would make a few changes to insure I am justified but make no mistake the stranger would not be allowed to get close without making nice first and passing my stink test.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 11:20 AM   #119
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
If you are not on a common path, are you on the only spot of water in the vicinity? That's another consideration.

Point is, there is simply not enough detail in the OP's hypothetical, and everybody is filling in the blanks to fit their own desired narrative.

Not unlike the mainstream media....
MLeake is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 11:49 AM   #120
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Agreed.

Vanya did bring up a valuable point however. You enter someones camp with permission first. If I'm there first and we are in the middle of nowhere, you better make small talk before getting close. Most hunters/campers/hikers have had both approach styles used to enter either camp or their immediate space. One raises concern the other relaxes them.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 12:03 PM   #121
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
old marksman - now that IS a very good point

Quote:
Whether you shoot him in the leg intentionally or while you intended to shoot him in the chest, that would constitute deadly force; it is also likely to kill him. In any event, absent an articulable basis for, and evidence supporting, a reasonable belief that he had the ability and the opportunity to kill you or cause crippling injury and that you were in fact in jeopardy and that you had had no alternative, you would most certainly end up locked up for a very long time.
I agree wholeheartedly. I was just saying I will be the one who decides what the best course of action is if this scenario happens to me: that is a fact. I will also have to face the aftermath, good or bad.

I myself would probably try and vacate the situation if the individual refused to respond to me. I believe that the universal sign language of having my firearm now in my hand could communicate to many more than the yelling. If the individual continued to come past my safe distance which thankfully might be further than others' safe distance, I probably would start moving as well. I will NOT just stand there if I feel threatened and just hope it is nothing bad and/or assume that it won't become an issue. I can't give up my security in this issue. I will not just shoot and ask questions later(not saying you said that // there seems to be some inference on this thread that there is no grey area and just two sides and that one side of the argument automatically fits into this category). That is not the case for me. I will not just shoot someone recklessly. Of course it is possible someone else will decide if that is indeed the case or not. Thank you for the links. They are always helpful, and I never shy away from the use of force literature.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 12:34 PM   #122
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
just read the rest of the thread after the oldmarksman post(I paused to respond)

I still think if this scenario happened in real life, people would die because they chose to stand their ground without drawing (that's in the case if it was actually a BG). It is a shame if someone would allow themselves to get into that situation. It has always been a common rule like back in the old days when you could see someone approaching your ranch from a large distance: respect the danger but don't fear it or better to be prepared than sorry.

*In other words, they would make the potentially fatal mistake of not thinking quick enough to at least back away or to try and make proper communication in a situation that made them feel uneasy(I am talking about any person/not TFL members).
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 12:55 PM   #123
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
Those who have said that they would start out by "commanding" the man to stop and by drawing and pointing a firearm have some learning to do. That is a guaranteed path to serious trouble.

Those of us who have spoken of evasion are on the right track--but the problem remains a serous one.

Let us suppose that we have, probably unwisely, gone out by ourselves in the wilderness. I think it would be a serious mistake to assume, however, that if we are in a really good spot for fishing, we are necessarily alone with the mysterious hiker.

Consider, for example, the fishing lakes above Bear Lake in RMNP. As one goes higher and further up to Emerald, Dream, and Nymph Lake, or to Haiyaha, one may feel quite alone, but there may be someone in the shadows, or someone may arrive nearby unnoticed. That is not mere conjecture; that has been my experience. That provides the potential for a witness.

Having framed the situation, let's look together at the possibilities, after assuming that for some reason the man keeps following, and throwing out the idea of letting him get within slashing range:
  • We draw and he stops, and that's the end of it (good);
  • We draw and he stops, but we are reported (not good);
  • We believe that we are forced to fire and we do so, but the existence of his weapon sufficently supports our defense of justification (worse);
  • Same, but we do not prevail in our defense (still worse).

I've left out the possibility of our being shot by a third party who believes that we are trying to attack the hiker--but that is a possibility. If we choose to arm ourselves, will not many other fishermen these days?

The reason that I mentioned possible witnesses is that experience indicates that it is highly unlikely that they will recall seeing anything that would justify your action, and quite the contrary, their testimony could well undermine your story and seal your fate.

So, given the problems, what might be some solutions? Pepper spray has been mentioned. How high are the wind gusts?

How about a waling stick? Might it be possible to keep him out of arms' reach, or should it become necessary, to parry a knife should one appear?
OldMarksman is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 01:46 PM   #124
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Having framed the situation, let's look together at the possibilities, after assuming that for some reason the man keeps following, and throwing out the idea of letting him get within slashing range:

We draw and he stops, and that's the end of it (good);
We draw and he stops, but we are reported (not good);
We believe that we are forced to fire and we do so, but the existence of his weapon sufficently supports our defense of justification (worse);
Same, but we do not prevail in our defense (still worse).
If you are following me and fail to heed warnings to stop you are a threat. Preparing to defend yourself against a threat is not illegal.

He is unarmed so his ability or means of causing death or grave bodily injury have been determined to be his arms and legs. Once he has followed me ignoring my commands to leave me alone he has shown his intent. Now all that remains is opportunity. Opportunity to use his ability and that comes as the distance closes.

Just because the guy smiles while following you doesn't make him any less a potential threat. Just because he has not given a clear clue to his intent doesn't make him less a potential threat. He should be considered a threat (if he has the ability to harm you) until he convinces you otherwise. This may not be politically correct but it is reality.

Reasonable people don't ignore commands to stop or don't come any closer. Reasonable people don't continue to close on a man pointing a gun at them who is clearly fearful of your presence. And for the add on being followed part, reasonable people don't follow someone that they are scaring by following. Reasonable people definitely don't do these things without saying a word.

So IMO reasonable people in a jury would understand my concern/fear and justify my drawing of my weapon and perhaps even the shooting should the stranger get to close.
threegun is offline  
Old August 2, 2011, 02:58 PM   #125
AH.74
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Hermit's Peak
Posts: 623
Quote:
AH.74, the only facts the OP provided:

Unknown man is walking rapidly toward you, but not in an overtly threatening manner.

He doesn't respond to verbal challenges.

End of facts.

Your assumptions: His approach in and of itself poses a threat; if he doesn't respond to your verbal challenges, he is very obviously a threat; continued non-response justifies drawing; continued approach after draw justifies shooting.

And great, you've been accosted in the woods once, congratulations.

First of all, that is a very jerky and obnoxious thing to say. I was not just accosted, and if I had handled the situation differently I might have been killed. Very nice of you to talk down to me like that. I would not marginalize your experience if the situation was reversed.

And second of all, you're wrong about the initial facts. The person has also ignored verbal warnings to stay away, and is continuing to advance as a gun is being pointed at them. That is apparently not a threat in your world.

I think if you're going to behave as immaturely as you have indicated, I will be done trying to discuss this with you.
AH.74 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07188 seconds with 8 queries