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August 2, 2011, 09:36 AM | #101 |
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threegun, retreat and/or get out of the way should be revised to "move out of the way."
Retreating, if you are on the path the guy is following, keeps you in his way even if he's proceeding legitimately. |
August 2, 2011, 09:37 AM | #102 |
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Oldmarksman, I think its safe to say that in the scenario posted by the OP that you would do nothing until the potential threat evolves into a viable threat. One that would allow you to justify your actions in court without a doubt.
I on the other hand believe that in the scenario posted, a case can be made on my part, that the strangers actions or in this case his inaction (to stop and or speak) made him go from an unknown stranger to a threat. The only way to reasonably deal with this threat is to retreat and prepare to stop it. Unless you are willing or able to go hand to hand. |
August 2, 2011, 09:39 AM | #103 | |
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August 2, 2011, 09:42 AM | #104 |
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threegun, you appear to deliberately be ignoring the fact that there are a bunch of other options in between verbal challenge and draw; this is not just limited to straight-line (and potentially still along the guy's chosen path) retreat.
You keep wanting to turn this into a "young, healthy guys may choose to go hand-to-hand thing," but that's a straw-man argument. Nobody is advocating that, not even those of us who could viably choose that approach in many cases. I like having the option, but I generally try to avoid needing to employ it. And, I can assure you, if somebody were to pull a weapon on me, while I'm carrying, the only way that would go hand-to-hand would be if we were too close for me to feel like I could draw. Otherwise, if I'm armed, I'm shooting when that weapon comes out. In very tight quarters, jamming his draw may be the better choice. Again, that goes to options. But once more, I am NOT saying "engage the guy in hand-to-hand." I am saying, use every tool at your disposal to avoid the confrontation, and if necessary to positively identify him as a threat. And I still think there are way too many gun-happy folks in here. |
August 2, 2011, 09:44 AM | #105 | |
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August 2, 2011, 09:45 AM | #106 | |
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There is a distinct difference between how one may have felt and what consitutes a reasonable belief. Yeah, if he keeps coming and you cannot get away, you may conclude have to shoot. Be aware that there are people serving long prison terms for concluding just that, not necessarily unreasonably, and not being able to prevail afterwards. If the forensic evidence does show that you made every effort to evade him and if he does turn out to to have had a knife, you should have a reasonable basis for a successful defense of justification. If either element is missing, or if there is anything that could cast any doubt on your credibility, you would likely end up in a great deal of trouble. |
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August 2, 2011, 09:45 AM | #107 |
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On a separate note, although this may not please dedicated birders like Vanya, I was always taught not to go deep into the wilds by myself. As somebody already noted, a broken leg, hypothermia, etc will kill you very quickly if there's nobody to help you.
As a side bonus, if one encounters an odd stranger, one has a buddy along. In the wilds closer to my house, I sometimes ignore my own advice, but then I have a GPS, cell phone, and one or two large dogs. |
August 2, 2011, 09:47 AM | #108 | |
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August 2, 2011, 09:48 AM | #109 |
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threegun, we are getting closer to agreement.
Please note that even then, the guy may be approaching with a note that says, "I am deaf/mute, please help." He could be reaching for a notebook, not a weapon. He could conceivably be a lost foreign type, reaching for a map, to ask where the heck he is? (And yes, I've encountered those.) What I'm saying is, there could be valid reasons for the person to try to pursue, and still not verbally respond. Exhaust all options before using a weapon. |
August 2, 2011, 09:49 AM | #110 | |
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August 2, 2011, 10:05 AM | #111 | |
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August 2, 2011, 10:08 AM | #112 |
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Mleake, Might need to educate deaf mutes that advancing on a guy who has just tried desperately to get away from you and now has leveled a handgun on you is a good way to get shot by mistake.
The others would be more obvious I would assume. |
August 2, 2011, 10:09 AM | #113 |
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threegun, one would assume the deaf/mute would react to the gun. My point was that the draw itself might have been misguided/unnecessary/not justifiable, depending on the actions taken prior to the draw.
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August 2, 2011, 10:10 AM | #114 | |
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August 2, 2011, 10:21 AM | #115 |
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MLeake, For me the draw would come only after repeated unheeded warnings to stop the advance and a tactical retreat. After that and assuming that the stranger isn't the size of MiniMe its on.
And to those who assume many on this board are "itching" to draw simply because our flags go up faster than yours, you are wrong. |
August 2, 2011, 10:25 AM | #116 |
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threegun, you and Vanya have discussed evasive maneuver; less-than-lethal options; observed traits.
However, others have just opted to draw because of the stranger's behavior, as described by the OP, without any indication of intermediate steps nor descriptions of what their perceptual triggers would be. To me, those folks are gun-happy, itching to draw, etc. If you think about it, I think you and Vanya will agree. |
August 2, 2011, 11:16 AM | #117 |
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I definitely agree with Vanya and for the most part with you.
In the OP's scenario it is quite conceivable that one would be justified depending on the how things unfold in the woods. Are you on a common path? Did the stranger modify his direction to assure contact? How did he respond to your command and or draw? |
August 2, 2011, 11:19 AM | #118 |
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I would make a few changes to insure I am justified but make no mistake the stranger would not be allowed to get close without making nice first and passing my stink test.
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August 2, 2011, 11:20 AM | #119 |
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If you are not on a common path, are you on the only spot of water in the vicinity? That's another consideration.
Point is, there is simply not enough detail in the OP's hypothetical, and everybody is filling in the blanks to fit their own desired narrative. Not unlike the mainstream media.... |
August 2, 2011, 11:49 AM | #120 |
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Agreed.
Vanya did bring up a valuable point however. You enter someones camp with permission first. If I'm there first and we are in the middle of nowhere, you better make small talk before getting close. Most hunters/campers/hikers have had both approach styles used to enter either camp or their immediate space. One raises concern the other relaxes them. |
August 2, 2011, 12:03 PM | #121 | |
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old marksman - now that IS a very good point
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I myself would probably try and vacate the situation if the individual refused to respond to me. I believe that the universal sign language of having my firearm now in my hand could communicate to many more than the yelling. If the individual continued to come past my safe distance which thankfully might be further than others' safe distance, I probably would start moving as well. I will NOT just stand there if I feel threatened and just hope it is nothing bad and/or assume that it won't become an issue. I can't give up my security in this issue. I will not just shoot and ask questions later(not saying you said that // there seems to be some inference on this thread that there is no grey area and just two sides and that one side of the argument automatically fits into this category). That is not the case for me. I will not just shoot someone recklessly. Of course it is possible someone else will decide if that is indeed the case or not. Thank you for the links. They are always helpful, and I never shy away from the use of force literature.
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August 2, 2011, 12:34 PM | #122 |
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just read the rest of the thread after the oldmarksman post(I paused to respond)
I still think if this scenario happened in real life, people would die because they chose to stand their ground without drawing (that's in the case if it was actually a BG). It is a shame if someone would allow themselves to get into that situation. It has always been a common rule like back in the old days when you could see someone approaching your ranch from a large distance: respect the danger but don't fear it or better to be prepared than sorry.
*In other words, they would make the potentially fatal mistake of not thinking quick enough to at least back away or to try and make proper communication in a situation that made them feel uneasy(I am talking about any person/not TFL members).
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August 2, 2011, 12:55 PM | #123 |
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Those who have said that they would start out by "commanding" the man to stop and by drawing and pointing a firearm have some learning to do. That is a guaranteed path to serious trouble.
Those of us who have spoken of evasion are on the right track--but the problem remains a serous one. Let us suppose that we have, probably unwisely, gone out by ourselves in the wilderness. I think it would be a serious mistake to assume, however, that if we are in a really good spot for fishing, we are necessarily alone with the mysterious hiker. Consider, for example, the fishing lakes above Bear Lake in RMNP. As one goes higher and further up to Emerald, Dream, and Nymph Lake, or to Haiyaha, one may feel quite alone, but there may be someone in the shadows, or someone may arrive nearby unnoticed. That is not mere conjecture; that has been my experience. That provides the potential for a witness. Having framed the situation, let's look together at the possibilities, after assuming that for some reason the man keeps following, and throwing out the idea of letting him get within slashing range:
I've left out the possibility of our being shot by a third party who believes that we are trying to attack the hiker--but that is a possibility. If we choose to arm ourselves, will not many other fishermen these days? The reason that I mentioned possible witnesses is that experience indicates that it is highly unlikely that they will recall seeing anything that would justify your action, and quite the contrary, their testimony could well undermine your story and seal your fate. So, given the problems, what might be some solutions? Pepper spray has been mentioned. How high are the wind gusts? How about a waling stick? Might it be possible to keep him out of arms' reach, or should it become necessary, to parry a knife should one appear? |
August 2, 2011, 01:46 PM | #124 | |
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He is unarmed so his ability or means of causing death or grave bodily injury have been determined to be his arms and legs. Once he has followed me ignoring my commands to leave me alone he has shown his intent. Now all that remains is opportunity. Opportunity to use his ability and that comes as the distance closes. Just because the guy smiles while following you doesn't make him any less a potential threat. Just because he has not given a clear clue to his intent doesn't make him less a potential threat. He should be considered a threat (if he has the ability to harm you) until he convinces you otherwise. This may not be politically correct but it is reality. Reasonable people don't ignore commands to stop or don't come any closer. Reasonable people don't continue to close on a man pointing a gun at them who is clearly fearful of your presence. And for the add on being followed part, reasonable people don't follow someone that they are scaring by following. Reasonable people definitely don't do these things without saying a word. So IMO reasonable people in a jury would understand my concern/fear and justify my drawing of my weapon and perhaps even the shooting should the stranger get to close. |
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August 2, 2011, 02:58 PM | #125 | |
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First of all, that is a very jerky and obnoxious thing to say. I was not just accosted, and if I had handled the situation differently I might have been killed. Very nice of you to talk down to me like that. I would not marginalize your experience if the situation was reversed. And second of all, you're wrong about the initial facts. The person has also ignored verbal warnings to stay away, and is continuing to advance as a gun is being pointed at them. That is apparently not a threat in your world. I think if you're going to behave as immaturely as you have indicated, I will be done trying to discuss this with you. |
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