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Old July 16, 2005, 04:32 AM   #101
big daddy 9mm
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he was totaly justified

I would have done the same thing.
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Old July 16, 2005, 08:02 AM   #102
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This was a robbery set-up, one so obvious that a kid in a school yard would recognize it. Your friend evaluated the situation, acted decisively, kept the BG's far enough away that they couldn't attack without risk of harm to themselves and survived the encounter unharmed. He did good. Bear in mind that there are always some people who feel that THEY could have handled it better. Your friend showed the BG's that their victim selection process was badly flawed.
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Old July 16, 2005, 11:32 AM   #103
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I don't have any idea why a couple guys on here would even THINK!! about having the means to protect themselves.
Run away! Run away!! hide under your bed, let the scum rule the streets.
Well done! to the friend.
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Old July 16, 2005, 11:42 PM   #104
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Here in the Philippines its not necessary who makes the call first to the police or logs a complaint at the precint. The 1st who makes the call to local police does not mean he's got the legal upperhand. The person who makes the 2nd call or does not make the call at all (the aggrieved party) does not necessarily mean the agressor. There was even one incident in Cebu City a renowned hard hitting radio commentator was ambushed inside his volkwagen. 2 or 3 guys where firing at him and he shot back with an unlicensed 38. special, no casualties. When the police arrived there were routine questions. Witnesses questioning. And guess what they did not bother to confiscate the wheelgun. The city mayor intervened and decided the radioman was acting in self-defense.
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Old July 17, 2005, 10:40 AM   #105
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For the record, even my wife agrees with the majority opinion in this thread.

The initial question was whether or not he was justified in drawing. I personally have no problem with what he did, but I wanted to point out that the opinion of the general public and legal system might be different.

I have reread my posts, and I am still surprised at how negative of a response they received. I will admit I definitely should not have said that he screwed up, because the aggressors in his situation probably met the means, motive, and opportunity criteria that my CCW instructor says warrants the use of deadly force. I did not make enough of an effort to acknowledge that fact.

While there may not be a legal or moral duty to retreat if possible, and even though he did not instigate the confrontation, in court he probably would have been asked if he did everything he could to avoid having to draw/shoot. While the opinion here is the aggressors had already decided to rob him, a jury might believe that the situation would have ended if he would have paid or moved away from the phone. Please remember that a large part of the U.S. population believes and preaches that giving the criminal what he wants is the safest option, even in situations more dangerous than the one being discussed.

No, I don't know if I could have processed all this in the time he had to deal with the confrontation. In hindsight though, I still think that moving away from the phone, if safely possible, would have clarified the aggressors' motive both for him and the jury that may have judged him.

I asked myself, and will now ask the board two questions: What would you have done if you were unarmed? Won't a jury expect you to act exactly that way up to the exact moment you have to shoot to save your life?

I'm not saying what is right, just giving my opinion of the possible consequences of an act I didn't see and fortunately never have had to experience.

Last edited by eeyore_11; July 17, 2005 at 10:43 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old July 17, 2005, 11:55 AM   #106
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What would you have done if you were unarmed?
Gotten my ass kicked and been robbed
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Won't a jury expect you to act exactly that way up to the exact moment you have to shoot to save your life?
No

If you live in a state that does not recognize your right to move freely about public property without fear of molestation you should move.
If you don't want t move then learn to be prey.
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Old July 18, 2005, 03:46 PM   #107
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I guess I was brought up and taught differently than most posters in this thread.. I will only draw if i absolutely think I will die or be badly injured if i dont.
BC,
you said you would have let the guys get closer correct? what if they had gotten closer and one pulled a knife? you would be inclined to use deadly force would you not? as everyone else has said would you be able to take down 2 people at a very close range? by letting them get closer you are in fact increasing the chance that deadly force would be necessary. what if they were talking all big and bad, surrounded you, one pulled a knife and you shot him? how do you know his intent wasn't to just clean out from under his fingernails? his buddy might say in court that he had complained about a splinter and when he went to pick it you shot him. no, by letting them get closer, the risk percentage to your person increases, the amount of reaction time decreases, the strike range of the BD shortens, and the necessity for deadly force rises.

eeyore_11,
you're saying you would've started moving away sooner. and while i agree with you partially, you are definetly monday morning quarterbacking. look at the scenario: you're car broke down at night and you gotta walk to get to a phone. you might or might not have enough cash for a tow. you're ticked that your car died. there are a million things running through your mind already. your wits are not fully about you. the guys may have hollered seemingly jokingly at first, only later to convey their real intent. i very seriously doubt any of us would have had the insight to move away at the first comment.

As soon as they started moving towards me i would have let them know i was armed, "i got 6 .357 hydrashocks with your name on them if you keep coming closer." they continue, I would have let them see i wasn't kidding. they rush, and i'm down at least 2 $.50 bullets.
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Old July 18, 2005, 04:03 PM   #108
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Thought about this last night some more - and someone above just touched on THE important point - this guy handled it perfectly!

IF he waited ANY longer and they attacked him as they certainly were setting up to do - he would HAVE HAD TO draw AND SHOOT to survive - if he ever did get another chance. He smartly used the threat of stronger force in showing he was armed - while keeping his head while doing so WITHOUT SHOOTING - to diffuse the situation. This seems like just the textbook response.
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Old July 18, 2005, 07:13 PM   #109
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Many would say that if he didn't need to shoot he never should have presented the gun. I always struggle with this since it worked well in this situation.

Would everyone feel the same had he simply presented and shot the first approaching bad guy?
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Old July 18, 2005, 10:00 PM   #110
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Would everyone feel the same had he simply presented and shot the first approaching bad guy?
The one absolute in life is that there are absolutly no absolutes.

No he would not have been justified in quick drawing on the guys like Matt Dillon.

There is no law written or unwritten that says you must shoot if you draw.

The situation , being life threatening, justified drawing the gun.
By drawing he deescalated the situation to a non life threatening situation that no longer justified the use of the gun.

Allowing retreat is just as important as any duty to retreat
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Old July 19, 2005, 12:17 AM   #111
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Hope I'm not repeating what's been said too much, but I haven't read all 5 PAGES of this thread.

Advancing toward your friend, in my opinion, was a robbery in progress, where they were now going to take by force, what they'd just demanded--and I don't think they'd be stopping with just the original ten dollars. Any reasonable person would have been afraid. Don't know if retreat laws apply here.

Higher powers than us make the final decision, and that can be a crap shoot depending where you live. I firmly believe in calling the police as fast as possible (before they do!) and presenting your side first and making it clear you want to press charges. If they call first, the Police will be looing for you, and guess what their story will be?! I'd be looking for witnesses, also.
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Old July 19, 2005, 12:28 AM   #112
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If one's lawyer isn't articulate in court enough to make some simple points, then get a competent one who can.

Draw too soon, it's brandishing. Draw too late, you can be hurt or killed, or will have to shoot immediately IF you reach your gun in time. Drawing when the attack looks imminent, but before it actually commenses, allows one shoot and survive if the attack commenses, and most of all (in the minds of the left-wingers you run into in the court system)---is likely to save the life of the attackers, since they have time to reconsider their actions.
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Old July 19, 2005, 08:58 AM   #113
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The bottom line on this discussion ?? If you carry you had better be prepared to use it.....Only YOU can determine if the situation has reached that point. If you wait for a concensus of opionion you will be dead....
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Old July 19, 2005, 05:17 PM   #114
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SuperHornet is absolutely correct.

One other thing if you ever do find your self in that situation and police get involved.

"I was in fear for my life, they were threatening me".

If for some reason you do decide to talk. Listen to the cops questions carefully before you answer.
They will try to lead you in the direction that they think is the truth.

I intervened in a domestic beatdown once, when the cops got there and started asking questions I was so amped up I did not understand that the cop asking me,"Did you SEE him hit her"? was trying his best to get me to say yes. Instead I said everything but yes.

I also apparently lied to them when I told them I only hit him once.
When they found him it looked like somebody had beaten him with a door.
I just forgot to tell them that I hit him once ,after I threw him through the door. Which of course I considered 2 different events.
They didn't

In other words shut up, lawyer up, and calm down before you tell your story
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Old July 21, 2005, 08:55 AM   #115
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HOKIEHUNTER,

I certainly understand that I am being a monday morning quarterback. There is a huge difference between talking about what could or should be done and actually doing it under stress.

Surviving is certainly priority one, even if done less than gracefully. That this friend was able to survive and avoid legal hassles shows he came out of the situation just fine. I did not intend to make such a big deal out of quibbling over anything he could have done differently to ensure the same outcome even if police had become involved.
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Old July 21, 2005, 12:16 PM   #116
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Our good guy acted prudently. The idea of "moving away and making a call" is ludicrous. The guy was at the only phone in the are that he could see. He had two BGs, both larger than he, approaching him with obvious hostile intent.

It is unknown if the two BGs had guns, knives, blunt weapons, etc., since they never displayed them. Really good crooks won't - until they are really close. (They don't like to have to run down their prey.) The fact that they split up in making their approach verifies that they know their business (mugging) and their hostile intent. Once inside 21 feet (more recent studies indicate 28 feet is better), a determined assailant will reach you and can either cut you, strike you (a club gives them added reach), or be grappling with you before/just as you clear leather.

Our hero (assuming that his having the gun was legal) should have called 911 immediately and given the police a rundown of the incident and description of the two assailants and their direction of travel.

Cougar, if you were in the same scenario and (re)acted as you have posted, you would likely have not had an equally harmonious ending. Remember, Action beats Reaction every time. If you wait to see how far the other guy is willing to go, by the time you realize his intentions, formulate a plan to block his attack, give your extremities the orders to act, you will be on the ground, injured or dying. With two or more assailants, the OODA Loop gets bigger.

Everyone needs to play "what if" scenarios in their mind all the time, which is being in Condition Yellow everytime you step out the door of your home. By playing the "what if" game, that means evaluating your surroundings and looking at all the people in your environment - Really look at them. Do they fit in? Are they just going about conducting their business, absorbed in their own little world, or are they, too, looking at all the other people, much like predators looking over the herd; searching for the weak and unaware?
You must formulate standardized responses to threatening situations well in advance that you will, if all the pre-determined parameters are met, execute with alacrity and ruthlessness. If I were in our hero's shoes, I would have reacted the same. All the Monday-morning quarterbacking in the world does not obviate the fact that we weren't there, and that everybody left the scene with no extra holes.
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Old July 21, 2005, 12:38 PM   #117
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say he did the right thing.....

my former CCW instructor who is a Law Enforcment Officer says all he does is ask the question is he fearful for his life or another persons life.

Would a reasonable person be afraid for his life late a night in a deserted area with two guys threatening him...damn skippy at least I would.
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Old July 21, 2005, 03:46 PM   #118
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. . . late at night??? . . . it was 2:30 in the afternoon!

Also, being "fearful for your life" is not sufficient for use of deadly force. A few other things need to be in place. Since they have been previously discussed, I won't go into them.
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Old July 21, 2005, 04:13 PM   #119
OF
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...it was 2:30 in the afternoon!
Yeah, nobody ever gets hurt in the afternoon! Don't you know anything?!
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Also, being "fearful for your life" is not sufficient for use of deadly force.
Being in fear for your life is damn close to being all you need. What was he missing again, exactly? Did they have: Ability? Check. Opportunity? Check. Jeopardy (intent)? Roger that...unless you're a mind reader and know that they were only going to 'intimidate' him. Any reasonable person would have concluded that their life was being threatened and they were in imminent danger at that very moment that he chose to display his firearm.

What should he have done? Got down on his knees and begged? Just waited until they got on him to see what they were going do?

Give me a break.
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Old July 21, 2005, 05:32 PM   #120
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In reply to the first post...

In North Carolina what he did was illegal and he would be in the wrong.
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Old July 21, 2005, 05:52 PM   #121
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Yep, and I guess the police would have to arrest my sorry butt in North Carolina.

I have been told that I look like a big, scary, nasty guy. To a certain extent that is a true impression.

If two punks came at me that way, I would pull with no problem. They instituted a threat, and anyone with any street sense would see it as such. Additionally if I COULD NOT SEE THEIR HANDS (not in the original post), I would absolute introduce them to Mr. Smith and Wesson.

After it was over, call the police (unless I was in NC).
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Old July 21, 2005, 05:55 PM   #122
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Not to say that the police would care though. According to the law, force can only be met with equal force, and deadly force can only be brought out when deadly force is already on the table.

There was no deadly force in that scenario, so the gentleman was not legally allowed to draw his gun (in North Carolina).

Course, technically, since he was not yet under attack, he had the duty to retreat as well.
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Old July 21, 2005, 06:13 PM   #123
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GRD, take a chill pill.

With regard to my earlier post, I simply stated the time for the benefit of Eghad since he stated it as being "late a night". It doesn't change the situation as described . . . just getting it right.

As far as fearing for his life, perhaps he feared for his life when he got his gun . . . maybe that is why he got it. Was he justified in shooting or displaying the gun at that time?

Perhaps when he first saw them, he feared for his life. Was he justified in shooting or displaying the gun at that time?

When they started to "taunt" him, perhaps he feared for his life then. Was he justified in shooting or displaying at that time?

Clearly there is more to it. I don't disagree with what he did. Could he have made different choices at the start of the situation and avoided the whole thing? Maybe he could have walked off the mall property instead and found a phone. Don't know. We don't have the information to know.

I hope that addresses your questions. I am not interested in a pissing match but felt I should respond to your questions.
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Old July 21, 2005, 06:41 PM   #124
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He Did the Right Thing

Blind Tree, I don't know what part of North Carolina you live in but I suggest you check the statutes prior to making that out and out statement. What would be the basis for an arrest? 14-34 would be a pretty big stretch - even if he did point it; 14-32 would be even a greater stretch; you see I live in North Carolina too and for 7 years was a police officer in that state. When I received my training part of the focus was on mens rea (a guilty mind) meaning intent. Intent is a basic element in common law and applies to most criminal acts. I am also a handgun instructor and am comfortable in saying that the circumstances AS DESCRIBED fully met the standard for him to draw his weapon - SHOOTING THEM IS ANOTHER MATTER ENTIRELY! Check out 230 N.C. 54, "a person may use force against another when the amount of force he uses appears to him to be reasonably necessary in order to protect himself from the other person's assault, even when the other person's assault is not deadly....."

I am not an attorney and am not giving legal advise, consult your legal counsel for case by case advise. If you live in North Carolina and wish to better understand the legal issues involved in carrying a concealed weapon perhaps it would be good to obtain a copy of the book used to train the police- "North Carolina Crimes - A Guidebook on the Elements of Crime" edited by Benjamin B. Sendor and published by the Institute of Government. My copy is pretty old, but I have no reason to believe that it is completely out of date. And YES, I would have done exactly what the man described did in Alabama. I might not have waited until he did either.

John
Charlotte, NC
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Old July 21, 2005, 06:55 PM   #125
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See, I disagree due to there isn't anything in that scenario that immediately authorised deadly force to be used, so at that point, he's guilty of brandishing his weapon.


BUT

I can't find this clause in the Statutes, so it's a moot point.
(5) Deadly Force MAY NOT Be Used:

(a) To Stop a Simple Assault.
The exact point in time a simple assault becomes deadly is often unclear. Repeated
blows to vital body areas, choking, continued beating on a helpless or weakened
victim, are some indicators.
(b) Because of the Use of Violent Language
ยง 14-277.1. Communicating threats.
(c) Because You Are a Victim of Past Violence and Fear Future Violence
(d) Because a Trespasser Refuses to Leave
(e) To Arrest a Criminal or to Prevent a Criminal's Escape
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