Pistol Ready Positions: Pros and Cons

[raimius]

(On another thread, we sidetracked away from the topic into the pros and cons of various ready positions. Opinions were strong, so I thought I'd move it to a new thread.)

I'd like to discus a few pistol positions that I've seen taught. Feel free to add others that you've seen!

To start, let's agree to some terms for the discussion. Let's use the ones here: http://www.handgunsmag.com/2013/09/0...st-deployment/
-Traditional Low Ready
-Neutral Ready
-Compressed Ready
-High Ready
-Sul
If you are going to talk about something different, please describe it, and don't call it the same as one of these.

Personally, I am a fan of Neutral Ready and Sul. Neutral ready provides a good balance of speed while not muzzling the person or target you are interacting with (provided they/it are more than a few feet away). Sul works well when the floor is a safe muzzle direction and you are moving in close proximity to people or objects you don't want to muzzle. With practice, it is still fairly quick to target via Compressed ready (what I would call "firing from retention" or "Step 3" of the 4 step draw stroke) or full extension.

I am not a fan of High Ready, as described, as I feel it is very far off target, and would waste time, while not providing more security or safety than Sul or Neutral Ready. Obviously, if straight up is the only direction you want the muzzle, it may have to do.

I have seen a "Modified High Ready" where the muzzle is more toward a 45 degree up cant, and a moderate distance from the body. This would be about halfway between Neutral Ready and High Ready. I don't feel it is a bad position, per say; however I don't think it is as efficient as Neutral Ready while it only buys a few extra feet of safe area in front of the shooter. It should be obvious that if you are at the Neutral Ready, and a non-threat is approaching the muzzle axis, you may want to move the muzzle higher.

DISCUSSION:
So, what positions do you train with and what are your intended uses? Do you have complaints about specific positions or think your way is better than these? (If so, please inform us.)

[manta49]

I think you can overthink these things, just point and shoot.

[raimius]

From what I've read, Sul was developed after some police officers were shooting each other too often when stacking at a door. So, I'd say, sometimes "just point and shoot" leaves too much to human error.

[FireForged]

I am a low ready person but I selected my method in the early 80's. Its just how it was done then and its how I do it now. I also grip a AR by the magwell... its just me.

The only issue I have with all this new-cool method is the over articulated robotic draw and high presentation. It looks neat but it seems like alot of wasted effort. It just doesnt take all that to put a sight post on a relatively close target.

[ryanjblajda]

as a EXTREMELY new person to shooting and such, (read my thread) from what i read, the most safe and fastest to ready position looks like Sul. curious, but why isnt there a hybrid version of Low Ready, and Compressed Ready, where you basically take compressed ready and point the muzzle slightly downwards?

[ClydeFrog]

Gun writer & retired LE officer; Dave Spaulding teaches what he calls a "third eye" method. He wrote a detailed magazine article about it. It's like a "low ready" tactic but at the chest level.

I've read a few magazine items about the Sul or South(Portrugese) method.
It seems safe & practical for urban areas or confined spaces that may be crowded.

[Snyper]

I agree with Manta
Too much thinking and not enough just doing what feels right for the situation.
That "Sul" position just sounds stupid

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Snyper

...That "Sul" position just sounds stupid

I used to think so, but enough training experience now has me convinced that it has its uses. It can be very helpful when/if one must have a gun in his hands and immediately available in a crowded environment.

[raimius]

Ryan, there is some risk with Sul that you can muzzle your own feet, especially if you bend aggressively at the waist. I would say that Low Ready or Neutral ready are likely to be the fastest, since there is less required motion to get to full extension. That said, you can fire at very close targets from Compressed Ready, so for that 3-5ft target, I guess that would be the fastest.

[ryanjblajda]

Originally Posted by raimius

Ryan, there is some risk with Sul that you can muzzle your own feet, especially if you bend aggressively at the waist. I would say that Low Ready or Neutral ready are likely to be the fastest, since there is less required motion to get to full extension. That said, you can fire at very close targets from Compressed Ready, so for that 3-5ft target, I guess that would be the fastest.

good point. i didnt think about the feet.

[raimius]

Yes, if you hunch over with a firearm in Sul, you need to train yourself to let the muzzle rotate a little forward. I've seen this happen (and done it myself) while learning. It also reinforces the idea that you should have a coach or teacher around to point out mistakes and places to improve.

I still think it is a useful stance, but like everything firearm related, you still need to have your brain engaged.

[ClydeFrog]

If you really want to "run & gun" you can get a polymer ASP, Ring or Blue gun then practice these drills/stances. You can do it with a unloaded weapon too, but I wouldn't want to nick/scuff/damage a $500-1200.00 pistol doing these kinds of drills.

As noted, crowds, densely packed areas & stress can not be brought up enough.
People(sheeple) tend to panic in critical incidents they will run, tromp and push through anyone. If you deploy a firearm or work as a armed professional(security, EP, LE, etc) you need to retain your firearm and be ready to shoot quickly.

[Snyper]

It can be very helpful when/if one must have a gun in his hands and immediately available in a crowded environment.

If you move at all it will end up pointing at your feet and legs, and you only have one hand on your weapon

I'll stick with a two hand hold and a more natural position, and I suspect, in a crowd, pointing the muzzle up is actually much safer

Those pictures look to be neither natural nor comfortable to me

[Derbel McDillet]

If you move at all it will end up pointing at your feet and legs...

This is untrue. The muzzle is canted far enough forward to clear your legs and feet.

Those pictures look to be neither natural nor comfortable to me

It appears you have zero training and experience with position SUL.

(Note how the firing hand in position SUL is virtually identical to the firing hand on a pistol gripped long gun when carried in "indoor ready" position.)

[g.willikers]

The largest delay in getting muzzle to target comes from the time it takes to make the decision as to whether to shoot or not.
Compared to that delay, the differences between all the mentioned ready positions are very small.
And not all that much of a time savings from hand on a holstered pistol, the safest one, especially when moving is involved.
Try them all, using a timer, and see which one is better for you.

[Snyper]

(Note how the firing hand in position SUL is virtually identical to the firing hand on a pistol gripped long gun when carried in "indoor ready" position.)

The muzzle is canted far enough forward to clear your legs and feet.

The muzzles in those pictures aren't.

The other thing I "note" is there are only 3 fingers holding the gun at all, and I still don't see how, holding it at that angle, that you can avoid pointing it at your feet (or someone else's) if you walk

A pistol grip rifle has nothing do do with where the handgun muzzle is pointed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant

You're right though, I haven't had "training" with Sul
I've only got 55 years of shooting experience to go by

[Derbel McDillet]

I still don't see how, holding it at that angle, that you can avoid pointing it at your feet (or someone else's) if you walk.

You probably never will without training and experience. Without training and experience all you're able to do is speculate.

Position SUL allows you to safely maneuver in a crowd without pointing your muzzle at anyone.

A pistol grip rifle has nothing do do with where the handgun muzzle is pointed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant

"Indoor tactical ready", as taught by Louis Awerbuck, positions the muzzle of a long gun pointing near the feet in a manner virtually identical to the way position SUL does with a handgun muzzle.

I've only got 55 years of shooting experience to go by...

And zero experience with position SUL from which to form an informed opinion.

[AK103K]

If you move at all it will end up pointing at your feet and legs...

I found this awhile back, and it explains things better than trying to do it by typing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrYEBNFhsd8

There is no one "perfect" ready position for all instances, but Ive always found SUL to come pretty close.

[fastbolt]

Unless this is some sort of enjoyable, hypothetical armchair exercise, many of these questions require some exposure to properly conducted training in order to get some meaningful answers.

Carrying and moving about in the real world while holding a handgun can expose the armed person to a myriad of situations, ranging from those imaginable to probably a surprising number of them haven't been considered. The world and how its events unfold is hardly ever scripted to our expectations, right?

Only knowing how to hold the handgun in 1 or 2 pre-programmed techniques, and counting on always having both hands available to devote to the gun, may not provide someone with enough tools to face some real-world problems.

Training often answers a lot of questions, including questions someone may not have known needed to be asked prior to the training experience.

Understanding basics is always good, but learning how to safely, properly & effectively apply them in a variety of situations, and how to change according to the demands of the moment ... especially while under stress ... is probably best learned under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor.

Learning martial arts via the self-taught method, whether from books, magazine articles, video clips or DVD's, is still not nearly as effective of a method of learning as hands-on training under a trainer. Useful as a supplement for the learning process, sure, but not as a replacement for actual training & supervised practice.

Mistakes and bad habits are usually hard for the practitioner/student to spot for themselves.

[PawPaw]

From what I've read, Sul was developed after some police officers were shooting each other too often when stacking at a door.

Yes, and no. From DefensiveCarry.com

Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position. It was primarily designed for the Brazilian officers as they poured Out of their SUVs on missions in the slums. Their muzzle control was atrocious, and since Max and I were in the SUVs, it did not take much brain power for us to create a solution to this evident problem -- be it right or wrong for many of the US instructors and critics. I think most of them thought it was a substitute for a classic "gun-ready" position and that is where the confusion came in.

I like Sul, because it is easy to stack people closely together with relative safety. I say "relative safety" because if something goes wrong in the stack, you're going to shoot your buddy in the lower extremities rather than between the shoulder blades, so Sul isn't a panacea for poor gun-handling, it's just one way that a trainer tried to find a less-dangerous way of getting out of vehicles.

[Snyper]

And zero experience with position SUL from which to form an informed opinion.

How much "experience" do you need to see where the muzzle is pointed?
It's just the latest fad, and no better than other time tested positions
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ition-sul.html
Here's what the guy who invented it had to say:

Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position.

3. The muzzle of the weapon is pointed directly at the ground between the shooter’s feet. The slide/barrel of the handgun is held against the back of the knuckles of the support hand.

Care must be taken to ensure that the muzzle does not point outward to the front or to the side of the shooter.

The muzzle MUST be straight down.

LOL
It seems the guy who invented it doesn't do it "correctly" according to the "experienced" shooters here:

The muzzle is canted far enough forward to clear your legs and feet.

For the vast majority of people it has no practical advantage

[Striker1]

I think some times people get too "locked in" on a ready/carry position and view it as static...I will only hold this way or that when in reality you will probably flow between two or more depending on actual needs of the situation in that moment in time. For instance, you might go from neutral or compressed ready to sul if you need to turn with the weapon and face a different direction then move back to neutral or compressed ready.

It is really hard to make an educated judgement until you get some experience in these areas. They all have their uses.

[PawPaw]

For the vast majority of people it has no practical advantage

Granted. For the vast majority of people, other methods may work better, but it wasn't designed for the vast majority of people. The vast majority of people would be better served by simply holstering the weapon.

Don't over-think this thing. Learn from the instructors and apply the lessons to the real world. I've used SUL in the real world, and for limited applications it's a relatively safe way to move through a crowd of people. (There's that word "relatively" again.)

[tipoc]

I like Sul, because it is easy to stack people closely together with relative safety. I say "relative safety" because if something goes wrong in the stack, you're going to shoot your buddy in the lower extremities rather than between the shoulder blades, so Sul isn't a panacea for poor gun-handling, it's just one way that a trainer tried to find a less-dangerous way of getting out of vehicles.

And being stacked in narrow hallways. It is useful for this. It can also be useful for moving quickly through a crowd. It is a position that one transfers into and out of as it is a clumsy one to be in for any length of time. It has been overly formalized for some instruction and training purposes as methods often are. You can see this in the pics above. In practice the thumbs do not need to touch each other and a firm grasp should be kept on the firearm, etc.

It's essence is that the muzzle is pointed at the ground, the gun held close to the body and retained there, and it's intended for use while moving or in a crowded place. It is a strong weapons retention hold. The gun can be quickly elevated for a close to the body shot or to extension, or to a less awkward position. It is useful in some situations IMHO.

tipoc

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by PawPaw

...I've used SUL in the real world, and for limited applications it's a relatively safe way to move through a crowd of people.

Which is its purpose -- and purpose it serves very well if one is trained in it, trains with it and does it properly.

It is was never intended to be a general use ready position. It was intended to be, and is, a specialized tool for a particular task.