Not hunting but need the power

DBLAction454 · February 2, 2011, 01:57 PM

Recently my father has been doing some traveling out west (RVing with his girlfriend etc etc) He loves the country and loves being outdoors...

However his last trip got him closer to a black bear than comfortable. Nothing happened fortunately but he did not like not having something to defend himself should it happen.

He's been looking at large caliber handguns (Desert Eagle .50AE, .454 Casull and such) to take with him whenever he goes out west...

Instead of spending $1200+ on a handgun I suggested he choose a 12ga shotgun to take with him instead. A 1760fps 1oz 3" shell with a slug produces 3,000ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

Now what looks good on paper doesn't always look good in the real world... I was wondering if any of you have any knowledge on what would be needed to stop a bear ranging from Black, Brown, and Grizzly should one ever like to come into my fathers camping ground. I'd hate to give him advice on a 12ga only to have it be ineffective.

Thanks!
G

davlandrum · February 2, 2011, 02:04 PM

Bear spray would be my first choice for a camp ground invading bear. If it has to go BANG, then a 12 ga slug would be a great choice.

Evan Thomas · February 2, 2011, 02:11 PM

Yes, you're correct -- a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs is the most effective firearm to use for defense against bears.

However, there's quite a bit of evidence that pepper spray is a better choice.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has found that:
"...based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from
a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."

And it's even less expensive than a shotgun... not to mention better for the bear.

BioHazrdMan · February 2, 2011, 03:28 PM

Pepper spray just makes YOU taste better after it runs out and the bear eats you anyways!!!

My vote it a 12ga or .357mag.

jmr40 · February 2, 2011, 03:53 PM

Black bear ain't that hard to kill. I carry a Glock 20 in 10mm. Power to spare for any black bear, and not too powerful for SD against humans. If he prefers a revolver a 357 mag would be more than enough. Nothing at all wrong with bear spray either, but I'd prefer to have a gun as well as the spray.

A shotgun with slugs will work fine as well, but most would be left in the RV instead of being kept handy like a handgun.

Doyle · February 2, 2011, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Black bear ain't that hard to kill.

They are even easier to scare away. The number of documented attacks by black bears against humans is so small as to make the probability way too remote to worry about. Carry a weapon for defense against the two-legged varmints and you'll be better off.

Kreyzhorse · February 2, 2011, 04:44 PM

I'd go bear spray and revolver. Both of which are easy to have on his person or damn close and won't attack the attention lugging around a shotgun will.

jmr40 · February 2, 2011, 06:14 PM

Doyle,

I partially agree with you. My main criteria in choosing a weapon is defense against 2 legged predators. But at the same the the reason I prefert the G-20 is its ability to easily handle black bears if needed.

Black bear "incidents" are far more common than is often reported. I live in N. Georgia and spend lots of time hiking here, and in Eastern Tennessee and Western NC. There have been MANY bear incidents in areas I hike. There have been several injuries and 2 deaths in the last 5 years. Local DNR officers have tried to keep the incidents as low key as possible. Especially the incidents that do not end in injuries or death.

I see bears at close range very often. I have never felt threatened and do not plan to change any outdoor plans. But I won't go out unarmed.

BIGR · February 2, 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Black bear "incidents" are far more common than is often reported. I live in N. Georgia and spend lots of time hiking here, and in Eastern Tennessee and Western NC. There have been MANY bear incidents in areas I hike. There have been several injuries and 2 deaths in the last 5 years. Local DNR officers have tried to keep the incidents as low key as possible. Especially the incidents that do not end in injuries or death.

Yeap, they don't want them there tourist being scared to go into them there hills.

I once had a 450 pound black bear on my back deck. After slapping the gas grill around a little he went on his way. I decided after he wondered off the threat was gone so therefore no need to go to pulling out any artillery. Had he tried to get into the house (like one did up the road) it would have been game on.

mordis · February 2, 2011, 07:53 PM

i would like to add that slugs in a 12ga are the best, but to remember not all slugs are made equal.

Most of the slugs you will see are either swaged soft lead or some kind of expanding design. For bears you need to have a hard cast slug like brenneke or other deeply penetrating designs. Im afraid a soft cast slug would just splatter agaisnt there skulls where as a hardcast will go through it.

Please remember to reccomend the correct slugs when telling someone to use slugs for woods defense.

egor20 · February 2, 2011, 07:59 PM

If he's going from State to State, then perhaps Bear Spray is the way to go, that way your father won't have to worry about the various State laws concerning Handguns and Firearms in general. That being said, you can't go wrong with a good .12 gauge slug gun.

LtMiller · February 2, 2011, 08:37 PM

I used to carry both, bear spray and a rifle; the large canister spray attached to the thigh kept getting caught on branches, I kept the lever action 45-70 rifle instead.

jmr40 · February 2, 2011, 09:04 PM

I'll repeat, Black bears ain't that hard to kill, or stop.

No special slugs or high powered magnum rounds needed. We're not talking about 1500 lb. brown bears. Almost all black bear problems are caused by young bears that have recently been run off by their mothers and are struggling to make it on their own. Most are in the 150-200 lb. range and are not any harder to stop than a human of the same size.

Black bears can and often do grow to over 500 lbs., but the ones that make it to that size don't do it by bothering humans.

Fat White Boy · February 2, 2011, 09:45 PM

A Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt range....

Deerhunter · February 2, 2011, 10:04 PM

I would think it will be a lot easier to keep the shotgun in the RV than having a pistol. Especially if he is traveling between states.

Never used bear spray. I see people mentioning having both, chances are if a bear attacks you wont have time to follow up with the shotgun if the spray doesn't work.

cnimrod · February 2, 2011, 10:10 PM

don't allow firearms. plus you got to remember what state you're in and their gun laws. (not that father didn't have a firearm in the trailer where ever we camped) bear spray is easier to use. less aiming involved.

jgcoastie · February 2, 2011, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanya

Yes, you're correct -- a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs is the most effective firearm to use for defense against bears.

I disagree, shotguns overall aren't bad choices, but they are far from the most effective. However, they would likely be adequate for the Tiny 48 (loaded with slugs only, NOT buckshot).

Around here though, when you're talking bear defense, you're talking about a lever-gun in .45/70 or all you're doing is flapping your mouth with weird sounds coming out. Period. Sure, lots of people carry hand-cannons around, but those who have stood toe-to-claw with a bear 10 miles from any road will tell you to "throw away that sissy-gun and gut yourself a... Marlin!" ("The Fugitive" reference if you didn't catch that).

Bear gun, definition (provided free of charge by jgcoastie): Not a handgun of any variety, no shotgun smaller than 12ga, no shotgun loaded with anything but 1oz slugs, no rifle smaller than .30/06, preferred bolt-action caliber: .375 H&H, preferred lever-action rifle caliber: .45/70. Overall recommendation: Marlin 1895 in .45/70.

DBLAction454 · February 3, 2011, 12:21 AM

Thanks for all the input guys... remeber though im not just talking about black bear... im talking brown and grizzly bear

Buzzcook · February 3, 2011, 01:54 AM

Is your dad going to Alaska? If not his odds of running into a grizzly are minuscule. If he's not going to Alaska his odds of running into a brown bear are non-existent.

Bear spray is better than a gun.
http://news.byu.edu/archive08-MAR-bearspray.aspx

Quote:

Concerned about hikers' and campers' persistent doubts that a small can of liquid pepper spray could stop half a ton of claws, muscle and teeth, Smith and colleagues analyzed 20 years of bear spray incidents in Alaska, home to 150,000 bears. He found that the spray effectively halted aggressive bear behavior in 92 percent of the cases, whether that behavior was an attack or merely rummaging for food. Of all 175 people involved in the incidents studied, only three were injured by bears, and none required hospitalization. Smith and his research team report their findings in the April issue of the Journal of Wildlife Management.

"People working or recreating in bear habitat should feel confident they are safe if carrying bear spray," Smith said.

Smith's previous research found that guns were effective about 67 percent of the time. Shooting accurately during the terrifying split seconds of a grizzly charge is extremely difficult, he pointed out, and his data shows that it takes an average of four hits to stop a bear. In addition, firearms are prohibited in national parks like Glacier and Denali, popular with hikers and also with bears.

So 92% is bigger than 67%. If it was your life on the line, which percentage chance would you pick?

Ronbert · February 3, 2011, 10:13 AM

Seems to me that bear spray is legally easier to carry almost everywhere he would be camping (except Canada? ) and would not carry much in the way of legal repurcussions if used early, often, and heavily (on the bear).
The DNR folk would probably be really HAPPY to see their campground bears get sprayed. (just speculation on my part though)

davlandrum · February 3, 2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

So 92% is bigger than 67%. If it was your life on the line, which percentage chance would you pick?

Someone needs to come up with bear spray that you could attach to like a flashlight rail - then you could pepper spray and fling lead simultaneously!!!!

wpcexpert · February 3, 2011, 12:40 PM

My vote would be a 12 gauge, however, I would load with 3in 00buck. Just my preference I guess. A slug is a lot of lead, but so it a load of buck shot. At the range that you would need to be using it(under 25 ft), I believe that it will cause more damage. At least the second shot should be buck shot.

2 3/4 00 buck put a 200ld boar hog down, when shot at 25ft. It put a 2in entry hole thru its chest, cut its heart in two, and a wound channel the size of a baseball. Did the job. And at that range there isn't a whole heck of a lot goign to stand up to it. Maybe plated if I was going into Griz country.

Water-Man · February 3, 2011, 12:45 PM

12ga. loaded with Dixie Slugs.

langenc · February 3, 2011, 01:20 PM

The shotgun w/ its power and price seem the best. It will very seldom be carried and will be useless-like the handgun home on the dresser.

Edward429451 · February 3, 2011, 01:36 PM

I'm highly skeptical of any public servant or agency who recommends bear spray over firearms. They could easily skew the statistics to show what they want it to. I know how they play the statistic game, if somene even sees a bear while having bear spray it goes down as a successful use.

There is so many variables that are not detailed and could effect the outcome of the so called 92 percent success rate that it is simply unbelievable. I'm not saying bear spray might not work. I'm saying for Gods sake dont take that 92% figure and start saying oh bear spray works all the time.

Firing on a bear doubles your chances of being hurt? Ehh, maybe but chances for survival are increased with a real defense. I'm waiting on some TFL'ers to get firsthand experiance with bear spray before I even start to believe in it (and then still carry a gun)

February 2, 2011, 01:57 PM	#1
DBLAction454 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 394	Not hunting but need the power Recently my father has been doing some traveling out west (RVing with his girlfriend etc etc) He loves the country and loves being outdoors... However his last trip got him closer to a black bear than comfortable. Nothing happened fortunately but he did not like not having something to defend himself should it happen. He's been looking at large caliber handguns (Desert Eagle .50AE, .454 Casull and such) to take with him whenever he goes out west... Instead of spending $1200+ on a handgun I suggested he choose a 12ga shotgun to take with him instead. A 1760fps 1oz 3" shell with a slug produces 3,000ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Now what looks good on paper doesn't always look good in the real world... I was wondering if any of you have any knowledge on what would be needed to stop a bear ranging from Black, Brown, and Grizzly should one ever like to come into my fathers camping ground. I'd hate to give him advice on a 12ga only to have it be ineffective. Thanks! G __________________ "If you show up to a fair fight, you're not prepared" -Unidentified Marine Sniper Instructor "The philosophy of gun control: Teenagers are roaring through town at 90MPH, where the speed limit is 25. Your solution is to lower the speed limit to 20." - Sam Cohen

February 2, 2011, 02:04 PM	#2
davlandrum Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Lane County Oregon Posts: 2,547	Bear spray would be my first choice for a camp ground invading bear. If it has to go BANG, then a 12 ga slug would be a great choice. __________________ U.S Army, Retired Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do. -Potter Stewart

February 2, 2011, 02:11 PM	#3
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	Yes, you're correct -- a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs is the most effective firearm to use for defense against bears. However, there's quite a bit of evidence that pepper spray is a better choice. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has found that: "...based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used." And it's even less expensive than a shotgun... not to mention better for the bear. __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

February 2, 2011, 04:44 PM	#7
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	I'd go bear spray and revolver. Both of which are easy to have on his person or damn close and won't attack the attention lugging around a shotgun will. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

February 2, 2011, 07:59 PM	#11
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,824	If he's going from State to State, then perhaps Bear Spray is the way to go, that way your father won't have to worry about the various State laws concerning Handguns and Firearms in general. That being said, you can't go wrong with a good .12 gauge slug gun. __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

February 2, 2011, 03:28 PM	#4
BioHazrdMan Junior Member Join Date: December 12, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 10	Pepper spray just makes YOU taste better after it runs out and the bear eats you anyways!!! My vote it a 12ga or .357mag.

February 2, 2011, 03:53 PM	#5
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Black bear ain't that hard to kill. I carry a Glock 20 in 10mm. Power to spare for any black bear, and not too powerful for SD against humans. If he prefers a revolver a 357 mag would be more than enough. Nothing at all wrong with bear spray either, but I'd prefer to have a gun as well as the spray. A shotgun with slugs will work fine as well, but most would be left in the RV instead of being kept handy like a handgun.

February 2, 2011, 06:14 PM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Doyle, I partially agree with you. My main criteria in choosing a weapon is defense against 2 legged predators. But at the same the the reason I prefert the G-20 is its ability to easily handle black bears if needed. Black bear "incidents" are far more common than is often reported. I live in N. Georgia and spend lots of time hiking here, and in Eastern Tennessee and Western NC. There have been MANY bear incidents in areas I hike. There have been several injuries and 2 deaths in the last 5 years. Local DNR officers have tried to keep the incidents as low key as possible. Especially the incidents that do not end in injuries or death. I see bears at close range very often. I have never felt threatened and do not plan to change any outdoor plans. But I won't go out unarmed.

February 2, 2011, 07:53 PM	#10
mordis Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2005 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 560	i would like to add that slugs in a 12ga are the best, but to remember not all slugs are made equal. Most of the slugs you will see are either swaged soft lead or some kind of expanding design. For bears you need to have a hard cast slug like brenneke or other deeply penetrating designs. Im afraid a soft cast slug would just splatter agaisnt there skulls where as a hardcast will go through it. Please remember to reccomend the correct slugs when telling someone to use slugs for woods defense.

February 2, 2011, 08:37 PM	#12
LtMiller Junior Member Join Date: February 2, 2011 Posts: 3	Bear defense I used to carry both, bear spray and a rifle; the large canister spray attached to the thigh kept getting caught on branches, I kept the lever action 45-70 rifle instead.

February 2, 2011, 09:04 PM	#13
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	I'll repeat, Black bears ain't that hard to kill, or stop. No special slugs or high powered magnum rounds needed. We're not talking about 1500 lb. brown bears. Almost all black bear problems are caused by young bears that have recently been run off by their mothers and are struggling to make it on their own. Most are in the 150-200 lb. range and are not any harder to stop than a human of the same size. Black bears can and often do grow to over 500 lbs., but the ones that make it to that size don't do it by bothering humans.

February 2, 2011, 09:45 PM	#14
Fat White Boy Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2005 Posts: 1,276	A Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt range....

February 2, 2011, 10:04 PM	#15
Deerhunter Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 607	I would think it will be a lot easier to keep the shotgun in the RV than having a pistol. Especially if he is traveling between states. Never used bear spray. I see people mentioning having both, chances are if a bear attacks you wont have time to follow up with the shotgun if the spray doesn't work. __________________ My idea of fast food is a mallard. -Ted Nugent

February 2, 2011, 10:10 PM	#16
cnimrod Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2009 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 152	lot of campgrounds don't allow firearms. plus you got to remember what state you're in and their gun laws. (not that father didn't have a firearm in the trailer where ever we camped) bear spray is easier to use. less aiming involved.

February 3, 2011, 12:21 AM	#18
DBLAction454 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 394	Thanks for all the input guys... remeber though im not just talking about black bear... im talking brown and grizzly bear __________________ "If you show up to a fair fight, you're not prepared" -Unidentified Marine Sniper Instructor "The philosophy of gun control: Teenagers are roaring through town at 90MPH, where the speed limit is 25. Your solution is to lower the speed limit to 20." - Sam Cohen

February 3, 2011, 10:13 AM	#20
Ronbert Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Location: Ft. Collins, CO. Posts: 398	Seems to me that bear spray is legally easier to carry almost everywhere he would be camping (except Canada? ) and would not carry much in the way of legal repurcussions if used early, often, and heavily (on the bear). The DNR folk would probably be really HAPPY to see their campground bears get sprayed. (just speculation on my part though)

February 3, 2011, 12:40 PM	#22
wpcexpert Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 791	My vote would be a 12 gauge, however, I would load with 3in 00buck. Just my preference I guess. A slug is a lot of lead, but so it a load of buck shot. At the range that you would need to be using it(under 25 ft), I believe that it will cause more damage. At least the second shot should be buck shot. 2 3/4 00 buck put a 200ld boar hog down, when shot at 25ft. It put a 2in entry hole thru its chest, cut its heart in two, and a wound channel the size of a baseball. Did the job. And at that range there isn't a whole heck of a lot goign to stand up to it. Maybe plated if I was going into Griz country. __________________ When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. - Thomas Jefferson

February 3, 2011, 12:45 PM	#23
Water-Man Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,126	12ga. loaded with Dixie Slugs.

February 3, 2011, 01:20 PM	#24
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	The shotgun w/ its power and price seem the best. It will very seldom be carried and will be useless-like the handgun home on the dresser.

February 3, 2011, 01:36 PM	#25
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I'm highly skeptical of any public servant or agency who recommends bear spray over firearms. They could easily skew the statistics to show what they want it to. I know how they play the statistic game, if somene even sees a bear while having bear spray it goes down as a successful use. There is so many variables that are not detailed and could effect the outcome of the so called 92 percent success rate that it is simply unbelievable. I'm not saying bear spray might not work. I'm saying for Gods sake dont take that 92% figure and start saying oh bear spray works all the time. Firing on a bear doubles your chances of being hurt? Ehh, maybe but chances for survival are increased with a real defense. I'm waiting on some TFL'ers to get firsthand experiance with bear spray before I even start to believe in it (and then still carry a gun)