VMax question

bow shot · August 12, 2009, 11:41 AM

Anyone shooting these? I've been loading exclusively with these (.204 Ruger) and noticed that my last batch had a lot of funkiness around the plastic tip, maybe 1/10 are like this:

1) tip is popped up slightly (maybe .002")
2) jacket/tip joint has voids: imagine a sierra varminter hp bullet tip (rearely uniform) with a plastic tip shoved in.

Anyone else seen this before?

I never noticed this before (loaded up 200 rounds so far), and I'm usually pretty "inspectful". As I recall (fallible, for sure) the jacket/tip joint has always bee a perfect interface, like looking at sections of laminated wood. This bunch I got from a guy on gunbroker, bagged, lot of 300. so I fear I've been stuck...

Magnum Wheel Man · August 12, 2009, 11:49 AM

shoot 2 weights in .224, & have loaded up close to 500 of them... all have been "tight" so far...

QBall45 · August 12, 2009, 11:49 AM

Sounds like a QC issue to me.

Have ya talked to the guy you bought them from?

**Unclenick** · August 12, 2009, 11:51 AM

Hmm. You could call and ask Hornady. I've not see that before, either, so I am wondering if they were pulled from loaded ammo or got some other rough handling?

On the other hand, tip defects basically make no difference to accuracy at short ranges. Base precision is what matters there. It's when you are shooting 500 to 1000 yards that the BC variance tip deformations cause begin to be visible as vertical stringing. Harold Vaughn shows this in his book Rifle Accuracy Facts. As former head ballistician for the White Sands sounding rocket program, he knows his exterior ballistics.

bow shot · August 12, 2009, 11:58 AM

Rough handling. I contaced the seller and he insists that they were simply emptied out of the original boxes and stored in a bin. 'Says he sold the gun and no longer had use for them.

I'll post pics if I get time and figure out how to do it.

Dang. I guess they'll go in the plinker ammo bin along with all the other "mistake" material I've created!! Bad time to throw cash down the toilet (not that it ever is...).

farmall · August 12, 2009, 01:07 PM

Bow Shot,

You've bought seconds, I'll bet. Hornady sells 25# boxes of "Mixed Rejects" for around $1 per pound. Guys buy these, and sort and sell.
I have several boxes of this stuff, and don't see that much difference in accuracy, but I know for a fact that Hornady's QC is very picky about the appearance of the plastic tips.
I'd load em to use to fireform brass, if your really worried about their accuracy, but I'd bet they shoot OK.

Andy

bow shot · August 12, 2009, 03:01 PM

Thanks for the intelligence farmall, I never knew that. I'm thinking that for 100yd testing, they'll be ok, but once I get the group at that range, I'll buy a new box for long range tests and keep these for plinkers.

**Unclenick** · August 12, 2009, 04:28 PM

My recollection from Vaughn's tests is that he filed slants across the tips of 6 mm bullets and got groups to open up only an eighth of inch or some other such small number at 100 yards. You really have to mess with a bullet nose to see short range accuracy issues. The base, however, takes very little deforming to throw them off quite a bit at all ranges. So unless the bases are dented and beat up, I think you're probably going to find these are still very good to at least 200 yards and maybe even to 300 yards.

I didn't know about the Hornady rejects, either. I'd heard Sierra used to sell rejects by the bucket to folks who drove up to their door, and I've seen them in buckets at Camp Perry before.

bow shot · August 13, 2009, 11:47 AM

Attached pics of crummy VMaxs. Not purchased from Hornady, purchased from a gunbroker member that described them as "new". One more page in the lesson "buyer beware".

farmall · August 13, 2009, 12:34 PM

Yup, them are seconds! At least they look like most of the V-Max seconds I've shot. Unclenick is right, as usual, the tip dosen't affect accuracy nearly as much as the base.

I shot some seconds that were the V-max, with the tips completely missing. They weren't very accurate, but VERY explosive with the HUGE hollowpoint!

We're close enough to the factory that seconds abound in this area. I shoot lots of em.

Andy

bow shot · August 13, 2009, 02:37 PM

thanks for the positive ID farmall.

If I ever get my group off the ground they will be used for close in kills. Funny how I try to work up for 300 yard shots and rarely shoot over 100 for chucks or rats crows. where's my head at?!?!?

azar92 · August 13, 2009, 02:43 PM

Midway USA will sells factory seconds in their "Blemished Bullets Sale". I bought 200 rounds of 154g Hornady Interbond and 200 rounds of 154g Hornady SP in .284 back in Janurary. $27/100 for the Interbonds and $14/100 for the Interlocks. Great prices, unfortunately I haven't been able to get the Interbonds to group worth a crap out of my 7MM Rem Mag.

It might be because they are factory seconds. It might be that I haven't found the right powder, primer, c.o.a.l combo. It might be that my gun and that bullet just don't get along. Whatever the reason, it's disappointing.

Have any of your tips been noticeably crooked? I've had to cull those...

**Unclenick** · August 13, 2009, 03:30 PM

It looks from the second photo like hollow point is at a slant under the plastic tip, like it wasn't formed correctly or a machine squeemashed it. I suppose you could pry the tips off and use a meplat uniforming tool to set it all back nice and square? Put the tip back with a dab of silicone RTV, and there you go.

Note that if a factory second has a lot of asymmetry in its mass and you run it down a barrel with a faster twist than is needed for the weight and length of the bullet, you'll get enough wobble that it can fail to group well. Harold Vaughn put the break even point between exaggerating wobble and failing to "go to sleep" at a gyroscopic stability factor of about 1.4. Don Miller likes 1.5. Either way, if you spin it up to a stability factor of 5, your going to see the wobble get pretty severe.

bow shot · August 14, 2009, 11:49 AM

The tips don't look crooked, but that's just rolling and eye-balling them. I haven't put instruments on them.

Amazing the studies folks have done on this stuff....

I'll be shooting some groups with these today. I'll let yall know what happens. Benchmark powder today. 85 degrees...

bow shot · August 26, 2009, 11:20 AM

'seem to group about the same as the "good" ones, which is kind of lack luster.

plainsman456 · August 26, 2009, 11:55 AM

I bought 1000 of the seconds and they are as good as the ones you pay full price for.The coyotes and pds can't tell the diff.Good Luck

James R. Burke · August 26, 2009, 06:54 PM

I had a few bad one's that where worse than that. I e-mailed Hornady twice, and never recieved a reply at all. Other than that I have always liked them.

rn22723 · August 26, 2009, 07:34 PM

Those are not seconds! They are really messed up.....perhaps from being pulled in a kinetic bullet puller? I have bought V Max Seconds from several reputable sources over the years......IE Lock Stock & Barrel, Midway, and Mid South and NEVER have I had bullets that were flawed like that. About 12 years ago there was an internet rumor floating around about some batches of factory boxed 22 Cal VMax bulles with tips falling out.

bow shot · September 1, 2009, 02:50 PM

Lesson learned....

farmall · September 3, 2009, 09:16 AM

I maintain that these are seconds, but not from boxes packed and labeled as such. Hornady sells bulk boxes by weight that are just a grab bag of different bullets. I have bought several, and see bullets like these all the time in the bulk boxes.

A friend was at Hornady last week, and they informed him they weren't going to sell the seconds and rejects to the public anymore.

Andy

farmall · September 3, 2009, 09:22 AM

I maintain that these are seconds, but not from boxes packed and labeled as such. Hornady sells bulk boxes by weight that are just a grab bag of different bullets. I have bought several, and see bullets like these all the time in the bulk boxes.

A friend was at Hornady last week, and they informed him they weren't going to sell the seconds and rejects to the public anymore.

Andy

Gbro · September 3, 2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

A friend was at Hornady last week, and they informed him they weren't going to sell the seconds and rejects to the public anymore.

That's sad, but can you blame them. There is always an "Angle Martin" out there trying to turn a quick buck and Hornady gets the heat.

The seconds we got years ago basically just had water spots on them. The shooting friend that I bought them from sold them as seconds and I was happy to have them.

bow shot · September 3, 2009, 10:41 AM

Yes, its a shame. One guy makes out at the expense of everyone else. Seems to be the song of this generation: "I made out, who cares about anyone else".

impalacustom · September 4, 2009, 03:57 AM

Hmm I was just out there and they were still selling them, but they didn't haven anything but really oddball stuff that I had no use for. I have shot thousands of their seconds and never had any trouble with them. Like they say, their seconds are seconds for cosmetic reasons not for performance reasons. Hopefully I'll be out there in this month to pick up my dies that have been on order for 4 months.

farmall · September 4, 2009, 07:20 AM

Recently, the oddball stuff is all they (or anyone else) has had on hand. I think there are people who watch that cabinet pretty closely! Honestly, their prices on boxed bullets (not the bulk boxes) weren't all that much cheaper.
Enough to make it worth buying ones I shoot alot of, for sure. But definitely not worth driving all the way from where I live.

Andy

August 12, 2009, 11:41 AM	#1
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	VMax question Anyone shooting these? I've been loading exclusively with these (.204 Ruger) and noticed that my last batch had a lot of funkiness around the plastic tip, maybe 1/10 are like this: 1) tip is popped up slightly (maybe .002") 2) jacket/tip joint has voids: imagine a sierra varminter hp bullet tip (rearely uniform) with a plastic tip shoved in. Anyone else seen this before? I never noticed this before (loaded up 200 rounds so far), and I'm usually pretty "inspectful". As I recall (fallible, for sure) the jacket/tip joint has always bee a perfect interface, like looking at sections of laminated wood. This bunch I got from a guy on gunbroker, bagged, lot of 300. so I fear I've been stuck...

August 12, 2009, 11:49 AM	#2
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	shoot 2 weights in .224, & have loaded up close to 500 of them... all have been "tight" so far... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 12, 2009, 11:51 AM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Hmm. You could call and ask Hornady. I've not see that before, either, so I am wondering if they were pulled from loaded ammo or got some other rough handling? On the other hand, tip defects basically make no difference to accuracy at short ranges. Base precision is what matters there. It's when you are shooting 500 to 1000 yards that the BC variance tip deformations cause begin to be visible as vertical stringing. Harold Vaughn shows this in his book Rifle Accuracy Facts. As former head ballistician for the White Sands sounding rocket program, he knows his exterior ballistics. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 12, 2009, 11:58 AM	#5
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	that's what I'm thinking. Rough handling. I contaced the seller and he insists that they were simply emptied out of the original boxes and stored in a bin. 'Says he sold the gun and no longer had use for them. I'll post pics if I get time and figure out how to do it. Dang. I guess they'll go in the plinker ammo bin along with all the other "mistake" material I've created!! Bad time to throw cash down the toilet (not that it ever is...).

August 12, 2009, 03:01 PM	#7
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	sounds about right Thanks for the intelligence farmall, I never knew that. I'm thinking that for 100yd testing, they'll be ok, but once I get the group at that range, I'll buy a new box for long range tests and keep these for plinkers.

August 12, 2009, 11:49 AM	#3
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	Sounds like a QC issue to me. Have ya talked to the guy you bought them from?

August 12, 2009, 01:07 PM	#6
farmall Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Beatrice Nebraska Posts: 613	Bow Shot, You've bought seconds, I'll bet. Hornady sells 25# boxes of "Mixed Rejects" for around $1 per pound. Guys buy these, and sort and sell. I have several boxes of this stuff, and don't see that much difference in accuracy, but I know for a fact that Hornady's QC is very picky about the appearance of the plastic tips. I'd load em to use to fireform brass, if your really worried about their accuracy, but I'd bet they shoot OK. Andy

August 12, 2009, 04:28 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	My recollection from Vaughn's tests is that he filed slants across the tips of 6 mm bullets and got groups to open up only an eighth of inch or some other such small number at 100 yards. You really have to mess with a bullet nose to see short range accuracy issues. The base, however, takes very little deforming to throw them off quite a bit at all ranges. So unless the bases are dented and beat up, I think you're probably going to find these are still very good to at least 200 yards and maybe even to 300 yards. I didn't know about the Hornady rejects, either. I'd heard Sierra used to sell rejects by the bucket to folks who drove up to their door, and I've seen them in buckets at Camp Perry before. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 13, 2009, 12:34 PM	#10
farmall Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Beatrice Nebraska Posts: 613	Yup, them are seconds! At least they look like most of the V-Max seconds I've shot. Unclenick is right, as usual, the tip dosen't affect accuracy nearly as much as the base. I shot some seconds that were the V-max, with the tips completely missing. They weren't very accurate, but VERY explosive with the HUGE hollowpoint! We're close enough to the factory that seconds abound in this area. I shoot lots of em. Andy

August 13, 2009, 02:37 PM	#11
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	cool. thanks for the positive ID farmall. If I ever get my group off the ground they will be used for close in kills. Funny how I try to work up for 300 yard shots and rarely shoot over 100 for chucks or rats crows. where's my head at?!?!?

August 13, 2009, 02:43 PM	#12
azar92 Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Location: Utah Posts: 209	Midway USA will sells factory seconds in their "Blemished Bullets Sale". I bought 200 rounds of 154g Hornady Interbond and 200 rounds of 154g Hornady SP in .284 back in Janurary. $27/100 for the Interbonds and $14/100 for the Interlocks. Great prices, unfortunately I haven't been able to get the Interbonds to group worth a crap out of my 7MM Rem Mag. It might be because they are factory seconds. It might be that I haven't found the right powder, primer, c.o.a.l combo. It might be that my gun and that bullet just don't get along. Whatever the reason, it's disappointing. Have any of your tips been noticeably crooked? I've had to cull those...

August 13, 2009, 03:30 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	It looks from the second photo like hollow point is at a slant under the plastic tip, like it wasn't formed correctly or a machine squeemashed it. I suppose you could pry the tips off and use a meplat uniforming tool to set it all back nice and square? Put the tip back with a dab of silicone RTV, and there you go. Note that if a factory second has a lot of asymmetry in its mass and you run it down a barrel with a faster twist than is needed for the weight and length of the bullet, you'll get enough wobble that it can fail to group well. Harold Vaughn put the break even point between exaggerating wobble and failing to "go to sleep" at a gyroscopic stability factor of about 1.4. Don Miller likes 1.5. Either way, if you spin it up to a stability factor of 5, your going to see the wobble get pretty severe. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 14, 2009, 11:49 AM	#14
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	tips The tips don't look crooked, but that's just rolling and eye-balling them. I haven't put instruments on them. Amazing the studies folks have done on this stuff.... I'll be shooting some groups with these today. I'll let yall know what happens. Benchmark powder today. 85 degrees...

August 26, 2009, 11:20 AM	#15
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	seem to group 'seem to group about the same as the "good" ones, which is kind of lack luster.

August 26, 2009, 11:55 AM	#16
plainsman456 Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2008 Posts: 260	I bought 1000 of the seconds and they are as good as the ones you pay full price for.The coyotes and pds can't tell the diff.Good Luck

August 26, 2009, 06:54 PM	#17
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I had a few bad one's that where worse than that. I e-mailed Hornady twice, and never recieved a reply at all. Other than that I have always liked them.

August 26, 2009, 07:34 PM	#18
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	Those are not seconds! They are really messed up.....perhaps from being pulled in a kinetic bullet puller? I have bought V Max Seconds from several reputable sources over the years......IE Lock Stock & Barrel, Midway, and Mid South and NEVER have I had bullets that were flawed like that. About 12 years ago there was an internet rumor floating around about some batches of factory boxed 22 Cal VMax bulles with tips falling out.

September 1, 2009, 02:50 PM	#19
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	rats. Lesson learned....

September 3, 2009, 09:16 AM	#20
farmall Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Beatrice Nebraska Posts: 613	I maintain that these are seconds, but not from boxes packed and labeled as such. Hornady sells bulk boxes by weight that are just a grab bag of different bullets. I have bought several, and see bullets like these all the time in the bulk boxes. A friend was at Hornady last week, and they informed him they weren't going to sell the seconds and rejects to the public anymore. Andy

September 3, 2009, 09:22 AM	#21
farmall Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Beatrice Nebraska Posts: 613	I maintain that these are seconds, but not from boxes packed and labeled as such. Hornady sells bulk boxes by weight that are just a grab bag of different bullets. I have bought several, and see bullets like these all the time in the bulk boxes. A friend was at Hornady last week, and they informed him they weren't going to sell the seconds and rejects to the public anymore. Andy

September 3, 2009, 10:41 AM	#23
bow shot Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Posts: 263	Yes, its a shame. One guy makes out at the expense of everyone else. Seems to be the song of this generation: "I made out, who cares about anyone else".

September 4, 2009, 03:57 AM	#24
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	Hmm I was just out there and they were still selling them, but they didn't haven anything but really oddball stuff that I had no use for. I have shot thousands of their seconds and never had any trouble with them. Like they say, their seconds are seconds for cosmetic reasons not for performance reasons. Hopefully I'll be out there in this month to pick up my dies that have been on order for 4 months.

September 4, 2009, 07:20 AM	#25
farmall Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Beatrice Nebraska Posts: 613	Recently, the oddball stuff is all they (or anyone else) has had on hand. I think there are people who watch that cabinet pretty closely! Honestly, their prices on boxed bullets (not the bulk boxes) weren't all that much cheaper. Enough to make it worth buying ones I shoot alot of, for sure. But definitely not worth driving all the way from where I live. Andy