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June 16, 2009, 09:00 PM | #1 |
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The other side of the coin
http://www.officer.com/web/online/To...1-Call/1$47087
This is the reason some Coppers err on the side of being more proactive, not because we are jack booted fascists that use the BOR for toilet paper. These Coppers are going to have unwarranted aggravation for respecting the civil rights of the lady who didn't answer the door due to her condition. Who thinks the Coppers were incorrect in their actions.....and why? I am in the camp that would say that they did their job by the numbers. But, the victim's husband is crying foul, lazy Coppers shoulda kicked down the door and saved the missus. Another wrinkle, how do you know that is in fact the husband callling 911 and not someone screwing with the victim. Last edited by Wagonman; June 16, 2009 at 09:09 PM. Reason: following advice of Mod----attempting a NO LOCK thread |
June 16, 2009, 09:35 PM | #2 | |
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From the article:
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If you get a call about someone in medical need, giving birth, and you knock on the door and leave cause no one answered. You arent protecting someones civil rights, your lazy and you are not doing your job as a public servant. They should have aggravation. Use your noggin. People who want to screw with others usually call in a SWAT type call, as in "drugs at this house, drug buy going down". The odds of someone calling in to check on a family member who may be in medical need is very low. You want to tackle the real problem, as I and others see it, address this: http://www.pr-inside.com/drug-suspec...y-r1320357.htm
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June 16, 2009, 09:49 PM | #3 |
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They dropped the ball
Nowhere in the story does it say they refused to enter for reasons of protecting civil rights, only that they had no tools to enter. If they had been chasing fleeing felon, you can bet they would have found a way. And, as the story points out, there was no attempt to enlist the help of the fire department who most certainly have such tools.
There was never a question raised about the identity of the 911 caller. In any case, there are any number of ways of identifying the gentlemen over the phone, such as a drivers license@, SS#, home address on his ID. And there would be serious ramifications for someone misdirecting police activity if he were motivated by ill-will, of which there was no indication or suspicion. Finally, the officers had direct information that the welfare of two individuals was in serious question, one of them a child, and they had permission from a resident of the home to enter. This was a fumble, and someone almost died. |
June 16, 2009, 10:21 PM | #4 | ||
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I really question why, if the husband were as worried as he claimed, A) Why he left the house to begin with and, B) Why it took him 4 hours to return. I will reserve further comment until more info is available, the article is too vague.
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June 16, 2009, 11:40 PM | #5 | |
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Last edited by csmsss; June 17, 2009 at 08:23 AM. |
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June 17, 2009, 12:01 AM | #6 | |
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Law enforcement receives premature, and outright BS calls from "worried family members" every day. The fact that they felt the need to make an excuse for why they couldn't get in is regrettable. Their answer should have been "We do not do that." The very rare possibility that something is wrong is immaterial. With no evidence of criminal or suspicious activity, law enforcement has no authority or duty to take any action. |
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June 17, 2009, 10:30 AM | #7 | |
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June 17, 2009, 11:04 AM | #8 | |
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Yup, no crime = no lawful entry. However, had the husband been on the premises, and asked for help, they would likely have had some obligation to do so, at the least a moral one.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 17, 2009 at 11:10 AM. |
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June 17, 2009, 12:37 PM | #9 | ||
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June 17, 2009, 02:02 PM | #10 | ||
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Obviously, if the officer sees, or hears something that makes him suspicious, he will likely boot in, but a dark, silent house? And a story that the wife is not answering the phone ? That's pretty thin. Still not enough facts yet, but sounds like they were acting reasonably to me so far. ETA: The guy obviously had a "gut feeling" that something was wrong well before he left for work, otherwise there would have been no Dr. Appointment planned. IMO he should have called EMS then or, stayed home. ( Been through this with 2 kids, you gotta go with your gut ) And yeah, I know someone is gonna say " Why risk his job over something that could have been nothing" ? I have sacrificed job over family, ya gotta have "priorities".
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 17, 2009 at 02:16 PM. |
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June 17, 2009, 02:04 PM | #11 | ||||
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June 17, 2009, 02:05 PM | #12 | ||||
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June 17, 2009, 02:06 PM | #13 | ||
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I can easily imagine the outcry from the usual suspects had this gone another way. Someone has a p!ss–off with a neighbor. They make a similar call. The resident doesn't don't answer the door because he's taking a nap. The police kick in the door, the resident, thinking he's being robbed, goes for a gun and is killed by the police. |
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June 17, 2009, 02:07 PM | #14 | |||
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June 17, 2009, 02:08 PM | #15 | |
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June 17, 2009, 02:09 PM | #16 | ||
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June 17, 2009, 02:10 PM | #17 | |
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June 18, 2009, 12:51 AM | #18 | |
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I'm no blue groupie, but the cops did the right thing here. Saying that cops should, or even CAN, kick in a door based on a phone call opens a giant can o' worms. Any house they want to take a look around in, "We got a call..."
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June 18, 2009, 01:04 AM | #19 |
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I would not be justfied in breaking down a door because of an anonymous caller said to.
The not having proper equipment is meaningless, they should've said "we came, no answer residence secure ground level. This post proves the damned if we do damned if we don't reality of Police work. |
June 18, 2009, 01:29 AM | #20 |
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So when a cop, swat team, busts down a door because of a "informant" who may or may not have been vetted and ends up being the wrong address, it's ok. But a voice on the phone about a medical emergency is not ok. Seems the adrenial junkie call gets the go ahead. Are cops today really that obtuse? I emailed this thread to a 20 year veteran of LE, friend of the family. His response, well, was [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]? And opined that if it were officers who worked under him, that they would not have a job after that.
And you folks who support these cops for not doing anything, and you also support cops who bust in doors on lies and shakey info from a CI, seems like you want your cake and to eat it too. What's the difference between A caller wanting a health and welfare check and an informant with no evidence to back up his info and a caller in New York calling in a Swatting prank in California? Answer: the first does not get the door kicked in. The latter 2, cops trip over themselves to use the ninja gear.
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June 18, 2009, 05:47 AM | #22 | |||||||||
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June 18, 2009, 07:05 AM | #23 |
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I'd give them some slack.
It's bad but.... I am sure dozens of "Concerned family members" call police every day for trivial matters. Think this is bad? Can you imagine the upreoar if they had kicked down the door and for some reason everything was fin and she had decided not to go to the appointment? |
June 18, 2009, 08:56 AM | #24 |
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O.K. This is really simple, and I will tell you why;
A close relative of mine works for my town's 911 dispatch center. After having her read this thread, and her husband, (who is a LEO), they both agree that the Police did everything they could in this instance. First, when a 911 call comes in, if it does not come from the residence in question, they will take note of where the call comes from, If it is a cell phone, or from another city (as the call in question was likely one or the other) it is considered to be somewhat "suspect" as there is no possible way to positively identify a voice on a phone. The request for a welfare check is not simply dismissed, LE or EMS is dispatched to check the premises as a priority. They will knock on doors or windows, check for unlocked doors, look in windows (if possible) and call the home phone (if available) to attempt contact. Unless they have some evidence (they see someone lying on the floor thru the window, smoke is showing, evidence of a forcible entry, or the caller claims the occupant threatened suicide in the last few minutes) then that is where their responsibility ends. They have no legal authority to enter a private residence without evidence of an emergency. A voice on a phone is not substantial evidence in most cases. and understandably so. They both told me that a neighbor, or close relative, "at the scene", might be enough, if the evidence were strong enough to support a forced entry. The law cuts both ways, the same law that protects us from an illegal search, (or a prank phone call) Also places "personal" responsibility firmly on the shoulders of you, your family, and friends, if you, or someone in your home, has special medical needs. I can take no umbrage with the officers in this case, they stayed within the law all the way, as it should be. Is it regrettable that this happened ? Absolutely, but the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the only persons who took a calculated risk, the Husband, and ultimately, the Wife.
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June 18, 2009, 09:38 AM | #25 |
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until the lawyers stop suing everyone for everything, don't expect a police officer to help you out when he is not required to. There are all kinds of things he could be liable for once he enters that house. Why don't officers unlock car doors for people anymore? It isn't b/c they are too busy. It only takes 30 seconds if they know what they are doing. It is b/c if they break the lock they may have to pay for it. Fifty years ago that was not true.
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