Tragic, why and how did this happen?

rcollier · January 26, 2020, 10:21 PM

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...tling-with-dad

Not a lot of information but tragic none the less.

TunnelRat · January 26, 2020, 10:23 PM

Yeah, not buying it went off by itself. Wouldn't be the first time that was claimed when untrue.

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HiBC · January 26, 2020, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Not a lot of information but tragic none the less.

Agreed on both counts. The tragedy part is honest. An innocent 4 yr old is gone. That stirs emotion.

There is a lack of information. That fact is not satisfying. We might feel powerless in the void.

In an attempt to gain some control,we might speculate. Odds are high we'd speculate wrong and jump to inaccurate conclusions.

" Just the facts,Ma'am" (Joe Friday)

Its sad a child is dead. I don't know enough to comment farther

**JohnKSa** · January 26, 2020, 11:48 PM

Some possibilities.

1. The gun was not in proper working order.
2. The gun had been modified in such a way as to disable the drop safety.
3. The father (or someone else) grabbed for the gun as it slipped and got onto the trigger accidentally.

Some lessons we can learn from this tragedy:

1. Carry a decent quality, modern firearm in good working order.

2. If your firearm is modified, verify that none of the built-in safeties have been disabled. I've seen some aftermarket drop-in trigger kits for Glocks that have the potential to disable the drop safety. Anything that advertises that it reduces the trigger travel distance on a Glock or 'glock-like' design should be considered suspect unless a qualified person has verified that all the internal safety systems are operating properly after installation.

3. Carry your firearm in a holster that holds it securely and protects the controls so that they can't be operated while the firearm is holstered.

4. Know the limitations of your equipment and carry method and either don't engage in behavior that is likely to cause problems while carrying, or remove and secure your firearm before engaging in such behavior.

TunnelRat · January 26, 2020, 11:56 PM

There's speculation and then there's probability. Supposedly this was a Glock (I say supposedly because it's Buzz Feed and frankly most media outlets don't know one pistol from another). Assuming that's true, we have a striker fired pistol that is not fully cocked at rest. In the past we've had threads where people have claimed a Glock striker at rest doesn't have enough energy to ignite a primer, and people that have claimed otherwise. Assuming the striker does have enough energy, that means either the striker block failed or the trigger dingus failed and the trigger had enough momentum to be driven to the rear. Now any mechanical device can fail, but these are two parts that are rather unlikely to fail. Then we have the fact that this happened with the timing such that one shot was discharged when both the father's and son's head were lined up with the barrel.

Could this all have been an accident brought about by mechanical failure? Yes, that possibility exists. What we do know is that when it comes to firearms humans are generally the far more failure prone part of the equation. It could have been a mistake, a firearm modified in such a way that the typical safeties no longer applied, a poorly maintained firearm, or frankly it could have been an attempted murder/suicide. Of the outcomes possible, to me the probability of pure mechanical failure directly relating to a drop (as is currently the story) is lowest of what I have listed.

Firearms are dangerous. Owning them and using them is accepting this fact, unknowingly or not. I would add that if you're going to wrestle, removing a firearm is likely a good idea (even with a holster that provides at least friction retention). Everyone is fallible, but when it comes to firearms the margin for error can be very small. This story doesn't make me feel powerless. It makes me feel sad.

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**44 AMP** · January 27, 2020, 01:47 PM

I don't know if it was a "perfect storm" kind of thing but the results are what they are.

Loaded pistol, small of the back, NO mention of holster, what kind, or if any.

"Wrestling" with 4yr old.. gun "falls" fires ONCE. Both hit in the head, son dies, dad in hospital, expected to survive.

This is beyond the realm of unlikely and into the "could this really have happened" the way it's said? I'd be very interested in reading the accident reconstruction.

Horrible, tragic loss, prayers for the family.

Still stuck on "falls to the floor" and the same bullet striking both in the head...I just cannot imagine how that could happen. Might be "falls to the floor" is just too vague. I read "falls" as, from some height (like a person standing/ sitting) but the reporter could have meant something else.

I can see both of them wrestling on the floor and the gun falling "out" as a possibility, but then....

We simply need more details in order to form any kind of accurate picture of what happened, and how. Without that any comments on what was done, should have been done, etc., pointless.

American Man · January 27, 2020, 03:07 PM

This is just my opinion, but I would be more inclined to believe this is another case of someone panicking after realizing their gun hit the floor and they did not pick it up properly.

That FBI guy in CO who was doing a back flip while dancing... he'd still have a job if he just wrapped his hand around the grip.

This story is a good reminder to talk about recovering a dropped pistol and rehearse it... even by yourself.

TBM900 · January 27, 2020, 04:10 PM

"Shaw had been wrestling on a bed with his son, Tripp, while he had a handgun concealed in the small of his back"
IDIOT isn't a strong enough word...

TailGator · January 27, 2020, 04:20 PM

I have come to loath the phrase "went off" as it is connected to guns. They don't do anything by themselves. If this was indeed a Glock in anything approaching normal configuration (i.e., not heavily bubba-ed) the trigger had to be pulled. How that happened I have no idea. Maybe we'll find out more in future updates.

JohnKSa's recommendations should be taken to heart by all handgun owners. Good quality handguns, well maintained, un-modified, in a quality holster do not "go off."

I can't imagine the grief of losing a child. I can't imagine this happening the way it currently being portrayed, either, though.

Lohman446 · January 27, 2020, 05:06 PM

Discretion. There are times, places, and activities that do not require you have a gun. Is there a risk of having a gun and not needing one? Sure there is. But there is a chance that the particular activity increases the risk of carrying a firearm more than going without would.

HighDesert · January 27, 2020, 06:10 PM

i'm not buying this at all. First, how does a gun fall from the crack of ones butt (which the last time I checked was behind us), to the ground and shoot two people in the head. I see foul play here. Even if both heads were properly lined up, the gun would have still had to have fallen at the exact angle, perfectly aligned, etc., etc. You get the picture.

The comments on the link above is just another opportunity for anti gunners to have a hay day proving (with numbers) that guns do in fact jump up and kill women, children and minorities.

If this was truly a freak accident, I wouldn't be for jumping to conclusions about what the dad did wrong. We don't have the facts. It's quite possible, his son just decided to tackle dad in the least opportune moment as they so often do. We don't know if the dad just came into the house, was about to leave, or even DIDN'T take off the weapon, in order not to draw his son's attention to it. All we have is what the media has published which in most cases is 99% BS.

wild cat mccane · January 28, 2020, 01:34 AM

It's nearly autistic to pretend there aren't risks to having an object designed to kill around and then going on to discuss the accurate operation of that item. Your odds go up of your death when you carry a gun.

Then to say stuff about "anti gunners?" Please. There has to be responsibility in the gun community for what is being used. It's a lethal weapon. There are risks. There are consequences.

It doesn't need to be a political conspiracy.

My community is dealing with a single high school with 7 suicides by gun THIS YEAR AND a teen just killed his mom and three siblings over the course of 6 hours. All these have been unsecured, unlocked guns accessed by teens under the legal age.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/01/...-teen-accused/

J.G. Terry · January 28, 2020, 09:13 AM

First up, I'd be cautious about putting too much faith in a news report. Get one of the Glock guys to explain how two safety features were defeated and the gun accidentally discharged. The drop safety would have also had to fail. That makes three safeties that failed.

Guns in Purses: We have had several instances where toddlers had gotten into purses with fatal consequences. Also found in glove compartments.

Before I retired, clients were referred from the courts. One real piece of work had left the program. Some months later he was in the newspapers. He was shot by people riding in a black SUV etc. etc. The police meditated on the wound. Wound said he was putting a handgun in his back pocket when the accidental discharge happened. Karma rules.

FAS1 · January 28, 2020, 10:11 AM

I did see an update that said it was a Glock 19.

Quote:

The gun that discharged is a Glock 19 handgun, according to the MCSO. The pistol is chambered in 9mm Luger, according to Glock’s website.

https://bloomingtonian.com/2020/01/2...-sunday-night/

Sounds like the gun was just in his waistband and not holstered, although none of the articles specifically say that it wasn't in a holster.

Quote:

Investigators say the father was play wrestling on a bed with his son while a handgun was concealed on the small of his back. During the wrestling, the gun fell and discharged. A single bullet struck both the father and the son in the head.

https://www.wthr.com/article/bloomin...-they-wrestled

runningbear · January 28, 2020, 12:01 PM

Glocks just don't just fire when dropped and both child and Father hit in head,can't say it did not happen but don't think it happened that way.

wild cat mccane · January 28, 2020, 12:29 PM

Don't be so literal about "went off."

No one is arguing it just spontaneously shot.

Not even the "anti gunners" are.

Straw man. Don't use them. It's a tragedy and can happen. You can't be shot without a gun.

TunnelRat · January 28, 2020, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Don't be so literal about "went off."

No one is arguing it just spontaneously shot.

Not even the "anti gunners" are.

Straw man. Don't use them.

The article I read states that the firearm discharged when dropped. That seems like "went off", to me.

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HighDesert · January 28, 2020, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

. You can't be shot without a gun.

Oh you so can! People do it all the time. Oh, you meant no guns period!?

wild cat mccane · January 28, 2020, 12:48 PM

And you think adults care/think that means it fell and literally went off without the trigger being pulled somehow?

Who?! Who do you think thinks this? No one. Additionally, who cares?

No adult it reading it as literal. Calm down. It's not a political conspiracy.

TunnelRat · January 28, 2020, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

And you think adults care/think that means it fell and literally went off without being caught?

Who?! Who do you think thinks this? No one.

Seems like there should be a sticky on gun forums to mention never try catching a falling gun.

Yes I do think some people believe the firearm discharged when it fell. Many people do not understand that firearms have internal safeties to prevent such a thing from happening and certainly television and movies have plenty of examples of firearms discharging when dropped.

I don't share your conviction that "no one" believes this. You seem upset in that you appear to be interpreting a technical discussion as lessening what happened or that such a discussion is from a point of refusing to acknowledge that people are negligent with firearms. I don't believe that is the case here, at least not with myself.

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stinkeypete · January 28, 2020, 12:58 PM

The facts are unclear, but common sense tells you that carrying a firearm subjects you to an increased risk of being involved in an unintended firearm related incident. It also gives an increased probability of surviving a violent confrontation.

Wearing a motorcycle helmet or seat belt or having airbags subjects you to risk. Odds are you are far safer with that safety gear. We really don’t have the statistics for firearms, it’s a personal choice.

One thing is for certain, a child’s life was lost and that family will never be that same again.
Be extra safe out there, friends

wild cat mccane · January 28, 2020, 01:11 PM

I wonder if people are this demanding for obvious detail car accidents are happen.

The answer: of course not.

It's odd.

A tragedy happened. Perhaps gun forums should all have sticky about not trying to grab a falling gun, ricochet threats when enjoying target shooting outdoors, best locks, etc.

I do not care for the judgement being laid on the news for this. You're being too specific. It comes off as unseemly.

Lohman446 · January 28, 2020, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Yes I do think some people believe the firearm discharged when it fell. Many people do not understand that firearms have internal safeties to prevent such a thing from happening and certainly television and movies have plenty of examples of firearms discharging when dropped.

I don't share your conviction that "no one" believes this.

I was in a fairly well established gun store the other day. Not a big box store that sells guns but a gun store complete with range. A sales person was showing a lady next to me different pistols - none of which were old, antiquated, or of a strange brand. He flat out told her that the firearms with external hammers were not drop safe and could discharge if you were to drop them.

Granted this was not a Glock and he left the impression that the various striker fired pistols were drop safe but I wasn't aware that there were many pistols out there that were not considered drop safe.

wild cat mccane · January 28, 2020, 01:16 PM

CZ Shadow 2 or the like with drop safety deleted, current series 70 1911s, Kel Tecs with inertia hammers (and that's the fear over the Ruger LCP 2 using their system)...

all not drop safe.

See how this isn't common knowledge?

Does it matter in a conspiracy to scary people? Heavens no.

Heck, even the Kel Tec KTOG forum owner had a drop fire P11. Sccy and Ruger uses this system too.
https://www.thektog.org/threads/safe....263355/page-2)

A transfer bar break can cause a drop fire in a revolver, it's impacted by the hammer, so it isn't totally crazy.

TunnelRat · January 28, 2020, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

I wonder if people are this demanding for obvious detail car accidents are happen.

The answer: of course not.

It's odd.

A tragedy happened. Perhaps gun forums should all have sticky about not trying to grab a falling gun, ricochet threats when enjoying target shooting outdoors, best locks, etc.

I do not care for the judgement being laid on the news for this. You're being too specific. It comes off as unseemly.

I don't follow the first sentence tbh.

I don't see anyone denying it's a tragedy.

I would actually agree that people in general do need to be reminded not to catch falling firearms. I talked about this with my wife last night. I also talked with her about drop safeties because we have a child and she had concerns.

I think you're reading more into this than might be the case otherwise because of what you've described happening in your community, for which I can sympathize.

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January 26, 2020, 10:21 PM	#1
rcollier Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2015 Location: Minnesota Posts: 102	Tragic, why and how did this happen? https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...tling-with-dad Not a lot of information but tragic none the less.

January 26, 2020, 11:48 PM	#4
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,985	Some possibilities. 1. The gun was not in proper working order. 2. The gun had been modified in such a way as to disable the drop safety. 3. The father (or someone else) grabbed for the gun as it slipped and got onto the trigger accidentally. Some lessons we can learn from this tragedy: 1. Carry a decent quality, modern firearm in good working order. 2. If your firearm is modified, verify that none of the built-in safeties have been disabled. I've seen some aftermarket drop-in trigger kits for Glocks that have the potential to disable the drop safety. Anything that advertises that it reduces the trigger travel distance on a Glock or 'glock-like' design should be considered suspect unless a qualified person has verified that all the internal safety systems are operating properly after installation. 3. Carry your firearm in a holster that holds it securely and protects the controls so that they can't be operated while the firearm is holstered. 4. Know the limitations of your equipment and carry method and either don't engage in behavior that is likely to cause problems while carrying, or remove and secure your firearm before engaging in such behavior. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

January 27, 2020, 01:47 PM	#6
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	I don't know if it was a "perfect storm" kind of thing but the results are what they are. Loaded pistol, small of the back, NO mention of holster, what kind, or if any. "Wrestling" with 4yr old.. gun "falls" fires ONCE. Both hit in the head, son dies, dad in hospital, expected to survive. This is beyond the realm of unlikely and into the "could this really have happened" the way it's said? I'd be very interested in reading the accident reconstruction. Horrible, tragic loss, prayers for the family. Still stuck on "falls to the floor" and the same bullet striking both in the head...I just cannot imagine how that could happen. Might be "falls to the floor" is just too vague. I read "falls" as, from some height (like a person standing/ sitting) but the reporter could have meant something else. I can see both of them wrestling on the floor and the gun falling "out" as a possibility, but then.... We simply need more details in order to form any kind of accurate picture of what happened, and how. Without that any comments on what was done, should have been done, etc., pointless. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 27, 2020, 04:10 PM	#8
TBM900 Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2015 Posts: 777	"Shaw had been wrestling on a bed with his son, Tripp, while he had a handgun concealed in the small of his back" IDIOT isn't a strong enough word... __________________ Playboy billionaire Retired Colonial Marine 1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit

January 27, 2020, 06:10 PM	#11
HighDesert Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2014 Posts: 128	i'm not buying this at all. First, how does a gun fall from the crack of ones butt (which the last time I checked was behind us), to the ground and shoot two people in the head. I see foul play here. Even if both heads were properly lined up, the gun would have still had to have fallen at the exact angle, perfectly aligned, etc., etc. You get the picture. The comments on the link above is just another opportunity for anti gunners to have a hay day proving (with numbers) that guns do in fact jump up and kill women, children and minorities. If this was truly a freak accident, I wouldn't be for jumping to conclusions about what the dad did wrong. We don't have the facts. It's quite possible, his son just decided to tackle dad in the least opportune moment as they so often do. We don't know if the dad just came into the house, was about to leave, or even DIDN'T take off the weapon, in order not to draw his son's attention to it. All we have is what the media has published which in most cases is 99% BS. Last edited by HighDesert; January 28, 2020 at 08:39 AM.

January 26, 2020, 10:23 PM	#2
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Yeah, not buying it went off by itself. Wouldn't be the first time that was claimed when untrue. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

January 26, 2020, 11:56 PM	#5
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	There's speculation and then there's probability. Supposedly this was a Glock (I say supposedly because it's Buzz Feed and frankly most media outlets don't know one pistol from another). Assuming that's true, we have a striker fired pistol that is not fully cocked at rest. In the past we've had threads where people have claimed a Glock striker at rest doesn't have enough energy to ignite a primer, and people that have claimed otherwise. Assuming the striker does have enough energy, that means either the striker block failed or the trigger dingus failed and the trigger had enough momentum to be driven to the rear. Now any mechanical device can fail, but these are two parts that are rather unlikely to fail. Then we have the fact that this happened with the timing such that one shot was discharged when both the father's and son's head were lined up with the barrel. Could this all have been an accident brought about by mechanical failure? Yes, that possibility exists. What we do know is that when it comes to firearms humans are generally the far more failure prone part of the equation. It could have been a mistake, a firearm modified in such a way that the typical safeties no longer applied, a poorly maintained firearm, or frankly it could have been an attempted murder/suicide. Of the outcomes possible, to me the probability of pure mechanical failure directly relating to a drop (as is currently the story) is lowest of what I have listed. Firearms are dangerous. Owning them and using them is accepting this fact, unknowingly or not. I would add that if you're going to wrestle, removing a firearm is likely a good idea (even with a holster that provides at least friction retention). Everyone is fallible, but when it comes to firearms the margin for error can be very small. This story doesn't make me feel powerless. It makes me feel sad. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

January 27, 2020, 03:07 PM	#7
American Man Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2018 Posts: 218	This is just my opinion, but I would be more inclined to believe this is another case of someone panicking after realizing their gun hit the floor and they did not pick it up properly. That FBI guy in CO who was doing a back flip while dancing... he'd still have a job if he just wrapped his hand around the grip. This story is a good reminder to talk about recovering a dropped pistol and rehearse it... even by yourself.

January 27, 2020, 04:20 PM	#9
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	I have come to loath the phrase "went off" as it is connected to guns. They don't do anything by themselves. If this was indeed a Glock in anything approaching normal configuration (i.e., not heavily bubba-ed) the trigger had to be pulled. How that happened I have no idea. Maybe we'll find out more in future updates. JohnKSa's recommendations should be taken to heart by all handgun owners. Good quality handguns, well maintained, un-modified, in a quality holster do not "go off." I can't imagine the grief of losing a child. I can't imagine this happening the way it currently being portrayed, either, though.

January 27, 2020, 05:06 PM	#10
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Discretion. There are times, places, and activities that do not require you have a gun. Is there a risk of having a gun and not needing one? Sure there is. But there is a chance that the particular activity increases the risk of carrying a firearm more than going without would.

January 28, 2020, 01:34 AM	#12
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	It's nearly autistic to pretend there aren't risks to having an object designed to kill around and then going on to discuss the accurate operation of that item. Your odds go up of your death when you carry a gun. Then to say stuff about "anti gunners?" Please. There has to be responsibility in the gun community for what is being used. It's a lethal weapon. There are risks. There are consequences. It doesn't need to be a political conspiracy. My community is dealing with a single high school with 7 suicides by gun THIS YEAR AND a teen just killed his mom and three siblings over the course of 6 hours. All these have been unsecured, unlocked guns accessed by teens under the legal age. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/01/...-teen-accused/ Last edited by wild cat mccane; January 28, 2020 at 01:44 AM.

January 28, 2020, 09:13 AM	#13
J.G. Terry Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2014 Posts: 577	First up, I'd be cautious about putting too much faith in a news report. Get one of the Glock guys to explain how two safety features were defeated and the gun accidentally discharged. The drop safety would have also had to fail. That makes three safeties that failed. Guns in Purses: We have had several instances where toddlers had gotten into purses with fatal consequences. Also found in glove compartments. Before I retired, clients were referred from the courts. One real piece of work had left the program. Some months later he was in the newspapers. He was shot by people riding in a black SUV etc. etc. The police meditated on the wound. Wound said he was putting a handgun in his back pocket when the accidental discharge happened. Karma rules. __________________ Intentionally Antagonizing Another MemberInsults and Ad Hominems Last edited by J.G. Terry; January 28, 2020 at 01:13 PM.

January 28, 2020, 12:01 PM	#15
runningbear Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2013 Posts: 226	Glocks just don't just fire when dropped and both child and Father hit in head,can't say it did not happen but don't think it happened that way.

January 28, 2020, 12:29 PM	#16
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	Don't be so literal about "went off." No one is arguing it just spontaneously shot. Not even the "anti gunners" are. Straw man. Don't use them. It's a tragedy and can happen. You can't be shot without a gun.

January 28, 2020, 12:48 PM	#19
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	And you think adults care/think that means it fell and literally went off without the trigger being pulled somehow? Who?! Who do you think thinks this? No one. Additionally, who cares? No adult it reading it as literal. Calm down. It's not a political conspiracy.

January 28, 2020, 12:58 PM	#21
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	The facts are unclear, but common sense tells you that carrying a firearm subjects you to an increased risk of being involved in an unintended firearm related incident. It also gives an increased probability of surviving a violent confrontation. Wearing a motorcycle helmet or seat belt or having airbags subjects you to risk. Odds are you are far safer with that safety gear. We really don’t have the statistics for firearms, it’s a personal choice. One thing is for certain, a child’s life was lost and that family will never be that same again. Be extra safe out there, friends

January 28, 2020, 01:11 PM	#22
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	I wonder if people are this demanding for obvious detail car accidents are happen. The answer: of course not. It's odd. A tragedy happened. Perhaps gun forums should all have sticky about not trying to grab a falling gun, ricochet threats when enjoying target shooting outdoors, best locks, etc. I do not care for the judgement being laid on the news for this. You're being too specific. It comes off as unseemly.

January 28, 2020, 01:16 PM	#24
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	CZ Shadow 2 or the like with drop safety deleted, current series 70 1911s, Kel Tecs with inertia hammers (and that's the fear over the Ruger LCP 2 using their system)... all not drop safe. See how this isn't common knowledge? Does it matter in a conspiracy to scary people? Heavens no. Heck, even the Kel Tec KTOG forum owner had a drop fire P11. Sccy and Ruger uses this system too. https://www.thektog.org/threads/safe....263355/page-2) A transfer bar break can cause a drop fire in a revolver, it's impacted by the hammer, so it isn't totally crazy. Last edited by wild cat mccane; January 28, 2020 at 01:22 PM.