Which cartridge for lots of flexibility (subsonic)?

[oldscot3]

No brainer... 44 mag. Lots has been done already with the TC and the Ruger 77/44 using subsonic ammo and suppressed rifles in 44 mag. You need not reinvent your own wheel. Tons of You tube clips to watch, and listen to, will give you a pretty good idea of what it will do.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I would recomend etither .45 colt/.454 Cassul, or .44 Mag/Spcl. Both can be loaded form subsonic low recoil target loads, to enough to drop most critters that walk the woods in the North American Continent.

Trail Boss is a great powder for target loads that are subsonic. I shoot a whole lot of .41 mag with home cast bullets, and Trail Boss.

[taylorce1]

If it is an Encore you want to use go to SSK Industries web site and look at all the Whisper cartridges. The .300 Whisper would be the most versatile cartridge I would think. Of course you can go 6mm to .500 in the whisper cartridges.

[zxcvbob]

.45 Colt. Second choice is .44 Magnum/Special or .41 Magnum.

You can load light weight roundball ammo (.457 round ball is about 145 grains) up to 300+ grain sledgehammers, and load it to whatever velocity you want.

[Daekar]

I've been snooping around the net looking for various cast bullets for 45-70, 45 Colt, and 44 mag. It looks like the .452" bullets are available in the widest range thanks to the 45acp and the light loads shot by cowboy-action shooters. Here's a list of bullets that looked good and seemed to be good prices:
www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html

[Hammerhead]

Penn has great prices. I use their .44 bullets a lot.
At low velocities (low pressures) I've found that lubing cast or swaged bullets with liquid alox will eliminate leading completely.

[Deja vu]

I have tinkered a little with the 45/70 subsonics



this is the load I have come up with

500gr lead, unique 11.0 grains shoot at about 1000-1025 FPS

Be careful and make sure you all ways check your barrel. The 500 grain bullets tend to loose stability at this speed at about 100 to 130 yards. You will have to adjust your sights because this load drops very fast.

p.s. I am not recomendeding this load I am just saying that I believe it is possible. I think its more possible from a shorter barrel (in my case 16.5 inches)

[ripnbst]

Good luck with getting a .458 SOCOM barrel for your Encore haha.

[Daekar]

I think I've dumped the idea of the Socom. Not because I wouldn't be able to get the barrel (you can have a custom Encore barrel made for ANYTHING) but because it would be more expensive, harder to find components, and less flexible in the areas that I would actually shoot most. If it were a hunting-only rifle, I'd be extra-happy about that 600gr. bullet, but since the vast majority of my shooting will be plinking and my hunting needs (whitetail inside 100 yards suppressed, more supersonic) can be served by a 350gr. bullet... the excess weight potential turned out to be just that. I'll be better served by the increased availability of bullets between 180-255 in the .452 diameter compared to the .458 for the Socom.

This is particularly nice because the 45 is flexible enough that I can just ditch the plan for a 357 altogether... why bother when I can do pretty much anything I'd planned with the 45?

[Jim Watson]

increased availability of bullets between 180-255 in the .452 diameter

If you want more, the place I buy .40-65 bullets from has them up to 345 grains
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/45_Colt.html
and if you cast your own, moulds heavier yet are available.

[Daekar]

Jim,

Thanks for the tip! I'm starting to collect websites of bullet vendors, I'll definitely add yours to the list.
As far as casting goes, yes, that's the plan eventually, but I think I need to have a firm grasp of reloading with somebody else's bullets before I start trying to make my own. It's another exciting level of control that comes with it's own complexity that a beginning reloader is probably better off without.

[mikld]

A.44 magnum will suit your needs perfectly. You can shoot Specials in your Magnum barrel and you can very easily, and safely load down your Magnum brass to Special velocities. The only porblem may arise is detonation from a too light load of slow powder (H110/W296). I've used .44 Special load data for my Magnum, in Magnum brass to get some accurate light loads (Special loads in larger Magnum brass will give you slightly lower velovitied than listed). .44 caliber bullets are available commercially from 180 grains to over 300 grains, cast lead and jacketed. A lead SWC of 250 gr. (like a Lyman 429421) over a light load of Unique is less than 800 fps or you can jack it up to over 1200 fps with 2400...

[jmorris]

Once you limit your speed the only way to get energy up is mass. .452 bullets are not common over 250g or so. .458's 400+ are common enough you can buy them in bulk (500) boxes.

I have only ordered 458 socom brass once and it arrived in 4 days from midway. It doesn't use fast powders and mine prefers H110 with heavy bullets.

A lot of folks have rebarreled short action bolt rifles for 458 socom as it shares the same case head with the 308 and a whole slew of other rounds. For a contender, where length is of no concern I would just get a 45-70 and use trailboss powder.

[Daekar]

Yep, what I've been doing is using a muzzle energy calculator and leaving the velocity at 1000fps. In order to break 1000ftlbs at that speed, you need a 450gr. bullet. Of course, I don't need that much energy, particularly not very often. I figure that if some wierdness in the market causes all of the 350gr .452 bullets to dry up, I can just get that weight in .458 and draw it down. A few thousandths should be manageable based on what I've seen online. I wouldn't be doing anything but hunting with those bullets, so the extra step doesn't really concern me with such a low volume. Most of shooting will be with lighter bullets like 180, 200, or 250.

[hornetguy]

I don't really understand the reason for really heavy bullets in this proposed "quiet gun"... but, I'll play along.

If you are wanting sub-sonic, something that small children can learn with, but can still be loaded "up" to upper sub-sonic levels for hunting (what are you hunting??) you might want to give a thought to the .300 Whisper cartridge. It shoots a .30 caliber bullet (range from 100 to 220 or so?) at subsonic speeds, with some fairly good results on targets.
It also uses WAY less powder to achieve those results than the 45-70, etc, will use. It would probably be similar to the pistol cartridges on powder use.
Suppressing it would be no problem, and I imagine it would suppress more readily than a .45 caliber, but I'm not a physics major, so I could easily be wrong there.

[hornetguy]

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article about the 300 Whisper. I've also included a significant quote from that article. Apologies for the copy and paste, but I thought it explained it pretty well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Whisper

"There are a few points to be considered regarding the utility of the .300 Whisper:

Supersonic loads are capable of matching ballistics of the 7.62x39mm and the .30-30 Winchester, making the .300 Whisper very capable as a short range deer hunting cartridge.
The use of heavy bullets, along with the low powder weight and small case capacity, make the .300 Whisper ideal for use with sound suppressors. These subsonic loads offer energy levels similar to that of the popular .45 ACP pistol cartridge, but range is substantially increased due to the longer, more efficient .30 caliber bullet. "

[Daekar]

I think that your cut and paste answered your own question about heavy bullets. The Whisper, while it has a fantastic energy retention because of its low-drag bullet and smaller cross-section, can only match a 45acp energy level when suppressed. As one of the posters already said, if you have a fixed velocity, the only way to make the round more powerful for hunting is to use heavier bullets. If I were to choose to silence a .458 SOCOM, for instance, that 600 grain bullet would actually allow me to surpass the muzzle energy of a standard 7.62x39 123gr bullet at 2100fps, while remaining subsonic. The 350gr bullets I'm looking at for the 45 Colt will put me squarely into the mid 700s for muzzle energy at 1000fps, and at the short ranges I'd be hunting, I don't need the aerodynamic shape the Whisper offers.

The heavy bullets are not necessary for plinking, you're right. They are necessary when you want to make sure something is good and dead.

You might find this calculator offers insight:
http://www.airhog.com/convert.htm

Just set the velocity at 1000fps or 1050fps, and play with the bullet weights.

[jmorris]

I don't really understand the reason for really heavy bullets in this proposed "quiet gun"... but, I'll play along.

The only thing I use mine for is hogs. It has more than enough power to do the job and is so quite when you bust the first one the rest of them just look around and not bolting away towards cover.


I went semiauto for fast follow up shots and so OAL wasn't as long as a pool cue I made the suppressor telescope back over the barrel and machined a special "flash hider" that would divert gases into the blast chamber and locate the can on bore centerline.

[jmorris]

if your just plinking a 45acp is cheap and chunks 230's out subsonic or you can save even more money and run 147 9mm's. I run them too but not for hog hunting.

Her is how I made one of my 9mm cans so the oal was only 16.125" with the end cap removed. The tube is TIG brased to the barrel so it only takes one stamp.

[Poodleshooter]

.44 magnum in the Encore.
The stock load for my 310gr Lee RNFPGC tops out around 1100fps, just on the transonic edge.

1. It's subsonic with any load you care to make it subsonic with, and most importantly: the stock barrel is more likely to stabilize most of the subsonic loadings because they're closer to standard performance. That's going to be critical if you plan to suppress it. Using rifle cartridges with subsonic loads and a standard twist is always a bit iffy for stabilization. Suppressor baffles won't tolerate that. This is also a good argument for the .45ACP, .45 Colt,etc.
2. Bullet weights for .429"-.430" vary from 180grs to at least 310grs if not more.
3. Brass is easily available and can last a loooong time if loaded light.
4. Components are easily available. You can cast the bullets easily (though also true for most of the other rounds). The barrel is easily available from TC , and is not a custom chambering.
5. This is the tricky part. To my knowledge there aren't any .44Mag suppressors available. However the T/C barrel is threadable, and possibly a durable steel or titanium .45ACP suppressor could be used for subsonic loads only, if the manufacturer vettes it.

[hornetguy]

and at the short ranges I'd be hunting, I don't need the aerodynamic shape the Whisper offers.

Got it... I just was misunderstanding what you were trying to achieve. I should have read your original post more thoroughly.

Basically a shortened 45-70 or 444 marlin... which would put you at the 458 Socom, or at worst, the 454, or 45 win mag. Just where you've all been going. I'm just way behind the curve here..

[jmorris]

Also, while .30 cal bullets have a better drag cof. they are also designed to expand at 1000fps+ faster than subsonic. So even if a .458" bullet didn't expand at all you still have a larger hole. Factory 45-70 405 grain loads are only 100-200 fps over subsonic so at subsonic speeds they will still perform as designed, at reasonable distances.

[hornetguy]

Also, while .30 cal bullets have a better drag cof. they are also designed to expand at 1000fps+ faster than subsonic.

This is true, for the most part... but I believe there are some .30 cal bullets designed for single shot pistols, that should expand at a lower velocity. But I don't really know what their lower velocity threshold is.

I agree on punching a bigger hole. That's why I prefer the .45 Colt over the .44 mag.. and I LOVE my Marlin 45-70. No expansion needed.

[Daekar]

I'm still tossing about ideas and doing research. I've read several posts elsewhere stating that 45 colt brass tends to have relatively short lifespan... this is often attributed to the low SAAMI pressure and the resulting lax chamber quality that manufacturers let go. This led me to the 454... which undoubtedly will have tighter chambers thanks to the high pressure. 454 takes the same .452 bullets as the 45 Colt does... so do you think the increased brass life would offset the cost of the 454 brass?

[Elkins45]

You can't go quite as heavy as you like, but the 358 Win has a lot of potential with both low velocity cast and heavy jacketed loads. As others have said, 44 mag might also meet your needs.