Post-war TT Pistol with Nazi markings? - Page 2

Winchester_73 · June 6, 2010, 08:08 PM

I forgot that Stalin and Hitler agreed to divide Poland 50/50.

Quote:

You will NOT be told that the German armies did not cross the Russian border to do so, they merely crossed into the Russian sector of Poland.

I thought that Hitler planned to fight the Soviets to make Churchill think that he had no Eastern ally to save him, not to mention the ideological differences of Hitler and Stalin. To be fair, the Eastern Front was partly in Poland but extended much farther north than Poland. As far as I know, it was the largest military offensive in history, known as Operation Barbarossa.

raftman · June 6, 2010, 08:22 PM

Um... we're getting quite far off topic here, we're supposed to be talking about my oddball gun, rather than debating the history of Poland, the USSR, and Germany.

kodiakbeer · June 6, 2010, 08:28 PM

Well, my theory is that it was a disgruntled Polish inspector and I'm sticking to that!

There's probably a Tok collectors forum somewhere that could tell you. If you find out, I'd like to know. I think it's a pretty interesting mark to find on a post-war Polish pistol.

TX Hunter · June 6, 2010, 08:40 PM

I am sorry, I feel partially responsible for getting us off topic.
Your Pistol, is a very interesting Piece of History.

raftman · June 6, 2010, 09:05 PM

I think I'll have to consult the guy I bought this from, he's something of a collector and has a couple more Polish Toks... maybe he'll know something. Would be nice to find out if it done by some disgruntled (or ex-Nazi?) inspector, and thus of historical interest, or something far more recent and more akin to vandalism.

If the latter, anyone know if it's safe/wise to try and remove the markings?

kodiakbeer · June 6, 2010, 11:40 PM

Apparently, the Swastika is the emblem of the Polish Mountain Units - elite infantry brigades. It has nothing to do with Nazism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale_Rifles

Darren007 · June 7, 2010, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Would be nice to find out if it done by some disgruntled (or ex-Nazi?) inspector, and thus of historical interest, or something far more recent and more akin to vandalism.

Personally I think some of you are reading waaaaay to much into those markings.

Many countries have used to the swastika to denote all manner of things. It's even still used today. (Go to Japan and buy a street map at the local 7-11 and you'll see what I mean.)

Just about every European surplus arm I've inspected has had many of those same markings. Everything from crescent moons to clover leafs to crosses and half circles and other assorted "lucky charms" stamped into the metal. Most of them are merely factory inspection stamps (not military acceptance stamps) from when the part was made.

Most likely the swastika you see is simply one of those.

Winchester_73 · June 7, 2010, 01:13 AM

Perhaps the Tokarev in question belonged to Hitler

Gunplummer · June 7, 2010, 02:13 AM

I worked in a machine shop for a while way back and they had an old Polish lathe. We ordered parts for it from some out fit in Wisconsin that had bought out all the stuff it could from Poland. Some of the parts came in packed in weird grease and they had small eagle and swastika stamps on them, among other things. They were not backwards like on your gun. I agree with the others, it was probably a private stamp for an Inspector.

kodiakbeer · June 7, 2010, 09:22 AM

Well, it's the historical context that's interesting. 1952 was seven years after the Soviet occupation. Stalin was still alive and purging thousands of people. Entire populations were going to the Gulag.

To put a swastika mark on a pistol at that time (no matter the meaning), was a pretty risky thing to do.

zbysiu23 · June 7, 2010, 09:20 PM

The WWII started with Nazi Germany with Soviet Union invading Poland.. in September 1939...

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=8d1tRaBmpHc

TX Hunter · June 8, 2010, 06:43 PM

It is a 1952 Polish Tokerev?
Thats interesting, I also own one, mine does not have the star on the grip.
I will have to disasemble mine, and look for markings in the frame as well.
By the way, If you have the means I highly recomend these Pistols.
They are very nice shooters.

TX Hunter · June 8, 2010, 06:52 PM

I watched the Video about the Katyn Murders.
And it made me so Mad, and Sad at the same time.
It brought tears to my eyes, and made me feel so sorry for these men that were murdered.
That was Horrible.

gyvel · June 18, 2010, 07:53 AM

Much has been said about the dividing of Poland by Hitler and Stalin, but what has been totally overlooked is the Polish-Russian War of 1919-1921. Although historians consider the Poles to have been successful in waging war against Russia, many Polish fighters were sent to gulags, never to be seen again, including one of my grandmother's brothers (although he was allowed to correspond with my grandmother; He died in the gulag in 1948).

Yet another reason why Poles aren't overly fond of Russians...

**Mike Irwin** · June 18, 2010, 08:11 AM

Russia and Poland have been at each other's throats for HUNDREDS of years.

It didn't just start in the 20th century.

raftman · June 20, 2010, 03:46 PM

This is true, there were even times when the Poles oppressed the Russians.

TX Hunter, did you get around to disassembling your Polish Tok to see if it's similarly marked?

TX Hunter · June 22, 2010, 01:06 PM

I did, my Tok has similar markings that look like Swasticas, but more worn.
I will attempt to take a photo and post it.

TX Hunter · June 22, 2010, 01:36 PM

I photographed the Slide, but it didnt come out clear, all I have is a Cell Phone to take pictures with, but holding the frame in the palm of my hand with the barrel pointing left, there is a marking I cant dicern followed by what looks to be the top half of a swastica, but the bottom half looks worn off.
i wish It were clearer. With the Cell Phone, and my limitied skill its even blurier.
I may be able to rub some white nail pollish on it and get it to stand out better for a picture.

TX Hunter · June 22, 2010, 02:04 PM

kodiakbeer · June 22, 2010, 02:20 PM

Very odd. They do look like swastikas.

I still suspect these are a slap at the Russians, though probably harkening back to the Polish forces who used the symbol for so many years rather than the NAZI's.

gyvel · June 24, 2010, 03:18 AM

There are swastika inspectors' marks on my 1936 Eagle Radom 9mm pistol as well.

As was pointed out in an earlier post, the swastika is a very ancient symbol going back to at least the Indo-European cultures of central and south Asia. It was also used by early Native Americans. (Which makes sense, since the general concensus is that humans migrated out of Africa, into central Asia, then westward into Europe and eastward into the far east and over the Bering Straits land bridge into North America.)

I have even seen it in decorative carvings on pews in Catholic churches.

June 6, 2010, 08:22 PM	#27
raftman Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,890	Um... we're getting quite far off topic here, we're supposed to be talking about my oddball gun, rather than debating the history of Poland, the USSR, and Germany. __________________ "My momma, she done told me, there's heart and then there's hate If one of 'em's inside of you, the other one, it aint."

June 6, 2010, 08:40 PM	#29
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	Raftman, I am sorry, I feel partially responsible for getting us off topic. Your Pistol, is a very interesting Piece of History.

June 6, 2010, 09:05 PM	#30
raftman Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,890	I think I'll have to consult the guy I bought this from, he's something of a collector and has a couple more Polish Toks... maybe he'll know something. Would be nice to find out if it done by some disgruntled (or ex-Nazi?) inspector, and thus of historical interest, or something far more recent and more akin to vandalism. If the latter, anyone know if it's safe/wise to try and remove the markings? __________________ "My momma, she done told me, there's heart and then there's hate If one of 'em's inside of you, the other one, it aint."

June 7, 2010, 01:13 AM	#33
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Perhaps the Tokarev in question belonged to Hitler __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

June 8, 2010, 06:52 PM	#38
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	zbysiu 23 I watched the Video about the Katyn Murders. And it made me so Mad, and Sad at the same time. It brought tears to my eyes, and made me feel so sorry for these men that were murdered. That was Horrible.

June 6, 2010, 08:28 PM	#28
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Well, my theory is that it was a disgruntled Polish inspector and I'm sticking to that! There's probably a Tok collectors forum somewhere that could tell you. If you find out, I'd like to know. I think it's a pretty interesting mark to find on a post-war Polish pistol.

June 6, 2010, 11:40 PM	#31
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Apparently, the Swastika is the emblem of the Polish Mountain Units - elite infantry brigades. It has nothing to do with Nazism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale_Rifles

June 7, 2010, 02:13 AM	#34
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I worked in a machine shop for a while way back and they had an old Polish lathe. We ordered parts for it from some out fit in Wisconsin that had bought out all the stuff it could from Poland. Some of the parts came in packed in weird grease and they had small eagle and swastika stamps on them, among other things. They were not backwards like on your gun. I agree with the others, it was probably a private stamp for an Inspector.

June 7, 2010, 09:22 AM	#35
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Well, it's the historical context that's interesting. 1952 was seven years after the Soviet occupation. Stalin was still alive and purging thousands of people. Entire populations were going to the Gulag. To put a swastika mark on a pistol at that time (no matter the meaning), was a pretty risky thing to do.

June 7, 2010, 09:20 PM	#36
zbysiu23 Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Illinois Posts: 29	The WWII started with Nazi Germany with Soviet Union invading Poland.. in September 1939... http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=8d1tRaBmpHc

June 8, 2010, 06:43 PM	#37
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	It is a 1952 Polish Tokerev? Thats interesting, I also own one, mine does not have the star on the grip. I will have to disasemble mine, and look for markings in the frame as well. By the way, If you have the means I highly recomend these Pistols. They are very nice shooters.

June 18, 2010, 07:53 AM	#39
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Much has been said about the dividing of Poland by Hitler and Stalin, but what has been totally overlooked is the Polish-Russian War of 1919-1921. Although historians consider the Poles to have been successful in waging war against Russia, many Polish fighters were sent to gulags, never to be seen again, including one of my grandmother's brothers (although he was allowed to correspond with my grandmother; He died in the gulag in 1948). Yet another reason why Poles aren't overly fond of Russians...

June 18, 2010, 08:11 AM	#40
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Russia and Poland have been at each other's throats for HUNDREDS of years. It didn't just start in the 20th century. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 20, 2010, 03:46 PM	#41
raftman Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,890	This is true, there were even times when the Poles oppressed the Russians. TX Hunter, did you get around to disassembling your Polish Tok to see if it's similarly marked? __________________ "My momma, she done told me, there's heart and then there's hate If one of 'em's inside of you, the other one, it aint."

June 22, 2010, 01:06 PM	#42
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	MR Raftman, I did, my Tok has similar markings that look like Swasticas, but more worn. I will attempt to take a photo and post it.

June 22, 2010, 01:36 PM	#43
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	MR Raftman I photographed the Slide, but it didnt come out clear, all I have is a Cell Phone to take pictures with, but holding the frame in the palm of my hand with the barrel pointing left, there is a marking I cant dicern followed by what looks to be the top half of a swastica, but the bottom half looks worn off. i wish It were clearer. With the Cell Phone, and my limitied skill its even blurier. I may be able to rub some white nail pollish on it and get it to stand out better for a picture.

June 22, 2010, 02:04 PM	#44
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	A little Better, still not great

June 22, 2010, 02:20 PM	#45
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Very odd. They do look like swastikas. I still suspect these are a slap at the Russians, though probably harkening back to the Polish forces who used the symbol for so many years rather than the NAZI's.

June 24, 2010, 03:18 AM	#46
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	There are swastika inspectors' marks on my 1936 Eagle Radom 9mm pistol as well. As was pointed out in an earlier post, the swastika is a very ancient symbol going back to at least the Indo-European cultures of central and south Asia. It was also used by early Native Americans. (Which makes sense, since the general concensus is that humans migrated out of Africa, into central Asia, then westward into Europe and eastward into the far east and over the Bering Straits land bridge into North America.) I have even seen it in decorative carvings on pews in Catholic churches.