17 HMR vs 22lr at 230 yds in wind

[stagpanther]

Winds were forecasted to be in 15 mph +/- range today, so I figured it was going to be a hopeless waste of ammo for my 22lr. Then I got the curious idea--let's see what happens comparing my lowly marlin 17 hmr against my CZ jaguar--in this case my marlin was shooting a 17 gr v-max type bullet vs the fast CCI stinger in my jaguar--my theory being the the faster stinger and heavier stinger bullet might perhaps level the playing field a bit. Winds were gusty between 9 to 15 mph at about 11 o'oclock.

Turns out it was no contest--the 17 HMR did a very credible job of grouping a 5 shot group at around 3.5"--and 4 of the shots were close to 2". Interestingly, the 17 HMR tended to show it's dispersion horizontally--though that could be due to the rifle's much heavier trigger pull than my jaguar's. The stinger wasn't even in the same ball park--literally couldn't group at all on the target board, but I think much of that might be because the CCI stinger simply doesn't shoot well in my jaguar, It doesn't perform well even in calmer conditions.

I waited until just before dark for the winds to back off, which they did but still were in the 5ish range and shot some of my better but slower 22lr ammo--the small reduction in headwind made a big difference but I still couldn't beat the 17 HMR. I know it may be obvious--but clearly the velocity and flatter trajectory of the 17 hmr confers a huge advantage in wind--even with a very light bullet. I'll repeat the test at some point when I have better conditions favoring the 22lr.

[jetinteriorguy]

For years I looked at the 17HMR, then walked away when I saw the price. A couple years ago I was back home in ND visiting an old friend, and we went shooting gophers with his 17HMR. We were shooting out to 150-200 yds and nailing these little critters. Ever since then I’ve been hooked, it’s just so much fun, no recoil, quiet, and deadly accurate.

[stagpanther]

I'm not sure the 17 HMR will beat the 22lr in calm stable, conditions--that's what I aim to find out. Consistency, though, favors the HMR I think--it only took me a few groups groups in the wind to get a good grouping. I'm a big fan of weather and atmospheric conditions and by extension what effect they have on projectiles.

[taylorce1]

All the .17s I've been around have been pretty good shooters. All things equal I'm sure the .17 HMR would give most .22 LR a run at 230.

[Shadow9mm]

Had a cz 17hmr years back. Flat shooting, absolute tack driver. 1/2 moa gun. Ended up selling it, couldn't justify the cost of the ammo anymore.

[Scorch]

17 HMR is in its power zone from 150 to 300 yds when compared to the 22LR. Bottlenecked cartridges will always outperform a straight-walled cartridge, they produce very even pressure curves, and therefore very consistent velocities. Many rimfire matches put the 17s in a class by themselves and do not let them compete against straight-walled cartridges like 22LR.

For comparing a 25 gr 17 caliber bullet to a 28 gr 22 caliber bullet, you will have to determine sectional density and ballistic coefficient and compare apples to apples. Just saying that the two cartridges have different bullet weights and the 22 has a heavier bullet means nothing. Compare BC to BC, SD to SD at the same velocities.

[Rimfire5]

IMO, Stingers won't ever shoot as well as match ammo in the .22LR.
Even with the higher muzzle velocity, Stingers will still transition through the speed of sound before 100 yards.

Good match bullets (MZ velocity between 1050 and 1072 fps) will easily break 1 inch for 5-round groups at 100 yards. But you do have to read the wind.
Lapua X-Act averages 0.658 at 100 yards in my bolt action Cooper 57M.
Lapua X-Act averages 0.747 with my Kidd semi auto.
Lapua Center-X averages 0.759 with the Cooper and 0.843 with the Kidd.
Eley Tenex averages 0.799 with the Cooper and 0.977 with the Kidd.
(Tenex always seems to shoot better for me in rifles that have tight chambers.)
Wolf Match Extra averages 0.918 with the Cooper and 0.914 with the Kidd.

I could never get bullets with muzzle velocities over 1200 fps to group under 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Most averaged closer to 2 inches.

My Sako Quad HMR averages between 0.84 t0 0.94 at 100 yards depending on the 17 grain ammo but the samples are much smaller than with my .22LRs.

[stagpanther]

I finally got a recoil activated trigger for my labradar so that I can now record 22lr velocities reliably. Admittedly I tested in a bit of a headwind today (10 to 15 mph), so that might have had some adverse effect--a lot actually.

[edited due to brain fart]



The winchester stuff had a surprisingly high velocity--but also a huge standard deviation. Bad--really bad.

[44 AMP]

confused... sorry

most of the ammo I tested went from around 900+/- fps at 100 yds to around 100 fps +/- at 150 yds

Are you actually saying the bullet was doing 900fps-ish at 100 yards and dropped to a velocity of 100fps +/- at 150 yards??

that just don't sound right...

[stagpanther]

Are you actually saying the bullet was doing 900fps-ish at 100 yards and dropped to a velocity of 100fps +/- at 150 yards??

that just don't sound right...

Good catch--my bad, when I import the labradar data into freeOffice it transposes the columns sometimes, I should have double-checked the results more closely. Strike against me for passing bad info.



That's winchester's super-x, BTW

[44 AMP]

OK, I see where the column headers are shifted and how it looks like the 150 Vel is col is the KE at 0, etc

Now I'm curios about shot #4, which seems to have gained 3fps between 100 and 150 yards... that's rather...untypical..

[stagpanther]

OK, I see where the column headers are shifted and how it looks like the 150 Vel is col is the KE at 0, etc

Now I'm curios about shot #4, which seems to have gained 3fps between 100 and 150 yards... that's rather...untypical..
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

It does happen on occasion--especially with smaller bullets; labradar itself states that beyond 100 yds the accuracy of the tracking can be suspect. I was seeing however, vertical drop variances by as much as 2 feet depending upon how bad the headwind was.

[Scorch]

Yeah, no. That didn't happen. 900+/- fps at 100 yds, 0 at 150? Nope, your Labradar failed. Best velocity numbers for 150 yds measurements can be calculated with a ballistics calculator like JBM, that's an awfully small bullet for a Labradar to track. But I will agree with a lot of the muzzle velocity numbers, higher velocity rounds tend to not be very accurate because of large velocity deviations. I saw this years ago during varmint shooting sessions, the report with HV ammo would be pop POP pop pop POP, and accuracy was all over the place. Subsonic ammo sounds like pop pop pop pop pop, very consistent and subdued. Best accuracy past 100 yds was with subsonic ammunition, they don't have to contend with going transonic.

[stagpanther]

Went out again today with the 17 HMR and CZ 457 22lr for a rematch at 237 yards. The only thing that I changed was I used the RWS R100 ammo in the CZ. Took me quite a while to get set up, but winds started out initially fairly light in the 4 to 7 mph range from about 11 o'clock. Unfortunately I only managed to get 2 goups off each of the 17 HMR and 22lr as a cold front came in touching off the rapid build-up of thunderheads. The winds increased too.

I thought for sure the 17 HMR would soundly beat the 22lr--but the R-100 in my CZ beat the hornady 17 HMR both times. I cleaned both rifles prior to shooting them, and put a number of foulers through both prior to going for the best groups I could. I honestly tried to concentrate and use the best technique I could with both rifles, and they both had the same handicap in terms of the winds. I thought I got the marlin's shots off pretty well even though it has a much higher pull weight than my CZ. Maybe a lighter pull would have improved the shots, don't know. I'll try again once (if) we get calm conditions.

17 HMR



22lr

[Pathfinder45]

Thank you, Stagpanther, for all the effort you put into this. It seems I can never find enough time for such experiments anymore.

[stagpanther]

Thank you, Stagpanther, for all the effort you put into this. It seems I can never find enough time for such experiments anymore.

Just my way of having fun--I'm of that age where it's important to stay engaged with something as I decline.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

Just my way of having fun--I'm of that age where it's important to stay engaged with something as I decline.

Amen brutha.

[stagpanther]

BTW--I just placed orders for a secondary 457 22lr build but couldn't find a jaguar anywhere, so I ordered a scout. I'm actually going to use just the receiver as a base for my 9" twist lilja match barrel and will otherwise use a KRG chassis again, mostly cause it works and is pretty cheap compared to the alternatives. This build will be used exclusively for load development of Cutting Edge's solid copper projectiles. Swapping barrels with CZ's on my jaguar was too much of a headspacing hassle to casually switch back and forth. I also have a laboratory grade scale coming--costs about as much as the rifle--but powder charges have to be precise down to the .01 grain weight. No powder measure made by the reloading equipment industry can do that.

[44caliberkid]

My brother had the Marlin bolt action but wasn’t using it so I bought it from him. It had a terrible BSA 2x7 power, supposedly marked for 17 HMR trajectory. There was no stop detent on the elevation turret so it would turn anytime you were sliding it in or out of the case. I replaced it with a better 3x9 that is also regulated for 17 HMR. It shoots 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Once we get the corn out I’ll be able to try longer distances this fall.

[stagpanther]

Either one gets "push around" by the wind, it's interesting to see how wide or narrow the window is for the performance advantage of the 17hmr over the 22lr depending on conditions.