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Old November 6, 2021, 06:07 AM   #201
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We live in the golden age of making up whatever hooey we want to fit our agenda.
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Old November 6, 2021, 07:10 AM   #202
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I watched the cross-examination of McGinnis while it was taking place and do not recall those exact words being used by Binger, "shooting him in the back."
Nobody has made a claim to the contrary.
Quote:
I'm calling BS on the Branca quote...
What you are calling the "Branca quote" was not a quote at all. Branca explicitly called it a "reasonable paraphrase".

You can disagree with his "reasonable paraphrase", but let's stop wasting effort on trying to find/contradict a quote that doesn't exist and was never claimed to exist.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/1...-daily-caller/

Quote:
Originally Posted by linked article
The actual exchange is in the video, so you can watch it for yourself, but a reasonable paraphrase would go something like this:

Binger: So Rittenhouse shot Rosenbaum, in the back, as he was falling, correct?
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Old November 6, 2021, 07:32 AM   #203
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Sorry John, but if it walks like a lie and talks like a lie--it's probably a lie.
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Old November 6, 2021, 07:51 AM   #204
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Sorry John, but if it walks like a lie and talks like a lie--it's probably a lie
Did you read what I posted? Because it doesn't seem like you did.

You can certainly disagree with Branca's paraphrase, his characterization of the exchange. You can even attempt to attribute a motive for why Branca might have constructed that paraphrase.

I am NOT arguing that Branca's paraphrase is accurate or making any assertions about his motivation in generating and posting that paraphrase on his blog.

What I'm saying is that it is incorrect to pretend that Branca or anyone else is claiming that's a quote from Binger or his "exact words".

And I'm saying that because it is true. You can look at the article yourself (link & quote provided) and verify that it is true.

Ironically, by mischaracterizing Branca's paraphrase as a quote, you are doing exactly what you accused him of doing. Putting words in someone else's mouth.
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Old November 6, 2021, 09:07 AM   #205
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We live in the golden age of making up whatever hooey we want to fit our agenda.
Reflexive statement?
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Old November 6, 2021, 10:42 AM   #206
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I'll reveal my prejudice:

Was KR guilty of murder as charged?
No. It was self-defense under conditions reflected just about any statute I can find.

.

Last edited by JohnKSa; November 7, 2021 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Removed comments not relevant to guilt or innocence or legality.
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Old November 6, 2021, 11:05 AM   #207
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Well aren’t we supposed to presume him not guilty . That’s how our justice system works innocent until proven guilty . I have yet to see anything to change my mind or to give me pause beyond a reasonable doubt .

I’ll add that I would need to go back and look at the charges and the jury instructions to be sure of my reasonable doubt belief . I think I’d also have to figure out what reckless means in this context because there is reckless in a lot of the charges . If it’s established that he was never asked to be there by the owners of the car lots and he did in fact inject himself where he was not wanted . Could that in itself be considered reckless ?
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Old November 6, 2021, 11:13 AM   #208
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The Charges:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/u...e-charges.html
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Old November 6, 2021, 11:18 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by stagpanther
Sorry John, but if it walks like a lie and talks like a lie--it's probably a lie.
A paraphrase that is explicitly acknowledged as being a paraphrase is a paraphrase, not a lie.

Not applicable here, but a quotation from memory that is not remembered exactly correctly is a misquote, not a lie.

For a statement to be a lie, the speaker/writer must (a) know that the statement is untrue, AND (b) intend to mislead the listener/reader.
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Old November 6, 2021, 11:22 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Metal god
If it’s established that he was never asked to be there by the owners of the car lots and he did in fact inject himself where he was not wanted . Could that in itself be considered reckless ?
If (and that is apparently subject to considerable debate) he was not asked to be there by the owners of that car lot, what if he was asked to be there by someone else? The fact that the owners of one particular car lot didn't specifically call up Kyle Rittenhouse and ask him -- personally -- to watch their car lot isn't evidence that he was not wanted there.

I fail to see how any of that speaks to the question of recklessness.
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Old November 6, 2021, 11:34 AM   #211
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If it’s established that he was never asked to be there by the owners of the car lots and he did in fact inject himself where he was not wanted . Could that in itself be considered reckless ?
Just as a member of he peanut gallery, with no formal legal training, I would think that being asked or not, is not relevant to "reckless" and that unless specific actions are defined in the law as reckless then it will an opinion call, and that is ONE of the jury's functions.

Just for an example, suppose you are in a car wreck on a busy freeway. It could easily be argued that anyone stopping to help you is committing a reckless act. You didn't ask them for help, and they are putting their own personal safety at risk to help you. Someone who's not an EMT or Fireman (who help because its the job, besides being the right thing to do) putting themselves at risk or potential risk to stop your bleeding or get you out of a car (especially one on fire or about to be) is certainly "going in harm's way, unasked".

When people do that, the press almost never says "reckless" they say "selfless" and sometimes "heroic".

Why isn't this trial about "selfless" and "heroic"?? I think its because not only the prosecutor but also the mainstream press want a conviction, and so will not use language that might influence people against that. They are using language to influence people towards a "guilty" judgement.

That is the prosecutor's job, but its not the press's job. And while they always claim otherwise, from where I sit, it seems the mainstream media don't just do their job, they seem to delight in leading people to the conclusion the press desires.

Just note the uproar over the Judge's ruling about using the word "victim". I think he was right. And I found his reasoning (as stated in the press) to be valid. You can't have a crime victim unless there is a crime, and until there is a verdict in this case, there is no crime, and, depending on the verdict there may not be a crime.
just my opinion, and worth every bit of what you paid for it.
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Old November 6, 2021, 11:48 AM   #212
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To the reckless question , I was asking a legit question so thanks for the feedback . I don’t know all the definitions to recklessness . I don’t know if it can be used in the way I may be suggesting . That’s why I would need to see the charges and the jury instructions as they pertain to each individual charge .

I guess my overall question is can your actions be considered reckless if you interject yourself into a situation you were not asked to be in . 44 makes a good point about stopping the car in the middle of the road to help even though you were not asked to be there . In that example which I think is a good one to discuss maybe . The selfless heroic person is not only putting himself in harms way but everybody else on the road . I believe that’s what makes it reckless it’s not that The person stopping the car to help is in harms way that makes it reckless it’s that all the subsequent things that can happen because of his reckless action that makes it reckless ???
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Old November 6, 2021, 01:07 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Metal god
To the reckless question , I was asking a legit question so thanks for the feedback . I don’t know all the definitions to recklessness . I don’t know if it can be used in the way I may be suggesting . That’s why I would need to see the charges and the jury instructions as they pertain to each individual charge .
https://definitions.uslegal.com/r/reckless/

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/reckless-conduct

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/reckless

Wisconsin: https://wilawlibrary.gov/jury/files/criminal/1345.pdf
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Old November 6, 2021, 01:25 PM   #214
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I guess my overall question is can your actions be considered reckless if you interject yourself into a situation you were not asked to be in . 44 makes a good point about stopping the car in the middle of the road to help even though you were not asked to be there . In that example which I think is a good one to discuss maybe . The selfless heroic person is not only putting himself in harms way but everybody else on the road . I believe that’s what makes it reckless it’s not that The person stopping the car to help is in harms way that makes it reckless it’s that all the subsequent things that can happen because of his reckless action that makes it reckless ???
How much more reckless does it become when your actions came after you knew that law enforcement was already on the scene?
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Old November 6, 2021, 01:34 PM   #215
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How much more reckless does it become when your actions came after you knew that law enforcement was already on the scene?
Depending on the context and what one means by "on the scene" . I'd think it could matter a great deal . I'm still looking through the links AB just posted though .
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Old November 6, 2021, 01:53 PM   #216
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Based on the charges along with the links describing the legal definition of reckless . The fact Kyle was running away from each person that aggressively attacked him . Also the fact Kyle only firing a minimum amount of shots to stop each attack at the very last second possible . I don't find what he did as reckless at this time based on the evidence presented at trial to date .

I do not believe based on the charges and links describing reckless/ness . That Kyle simply being in those locations armed constitute recklessness as it is legally defined .
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Last edited by Metal god; November 6, 2021 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Removed two words that made statement sound contradictory
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Old November 6, 2021, 02:25 PM   #217
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How much more reckless does it become when your actions came after you knew that law enforcement was already on the scene?
The presence of law enforcement does not negate your right to self defense. But let's say law enforcement was 'on scene.' Did you see how they rushed right in and isolated combatants, made arrests, etc.? Nope. You know why? They weren't actually on scene. They were in the area, but not actually on scene.

As for being in the area, did you notice how when Rittenhouse approached the cops and people were following Rittenhouse and yelling he just shot people that the cops immediately went into action to stop the "shooter"? They may have been there, but not actually doing a whole lot unless they directly observed that they needed to do something.
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Old November 6, 2021, 02:27 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainah
How much more reckless does it become when your actions came after you knew that law enforcement was already on the scene?
I can't say my opinion would be the same if I were an LEO. However, if I was, I would welcome any and all law abiding citizen lawfully carrying a weapon to be within my area of concern.

The county that I reside in employs deputies that welcome and advocate their residents to attain concealed carry permits. Their belief is the more law abiding residents they have doing so, the greater chance they have assistance nearby in case their situation is compromised. It isn't advocating vigilantism. Rather, it's to provide support to LEOs and anyone in need in the community. Too many times LEO lives have been compromised when innocent bystanders had no immediately effective means to aid in saving a life.
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Old November 6, 2021, 02:52 PM   #219
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Chasing down and attacking a Man who is carrying an AR-15 is pretty flipping reckless.
There are a lot of places I do not go.Thats my choice.
Do I have any right to tell anyone THEY "should not be there"

I think we are all free to go to any public place. If someone says "We don't want you here" ...well Who the heck are you? What gives you he power?

KR has a First Amendment right,too.

Last edited by JohnKSa; November 6, 2021 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Removed off topic commentary.
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Old November 6, 2021, 04:01 PM   #220
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Attempting to say that Rittenhouse was reckless simply because he was there just doesn't hold water.

If I have reason to go into a high crime area, and I do so armed, have I now surrendered my right of self defense because the area is 'more' dangerous than other areas?
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Old November 6, 2021, 04:52 PM   #221
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Attempting to say that Rittenhouse was reckless simply because he was there just doesn't hold water.

Why not? The riot was not impacting his house or neighborhood. He's facing huge legal consequences, and there's little evidence to indicate that he made any impact on the events besides becoming the biggest event.
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Old November 6, 2021, 04:57 PM   #222
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Chasing down and attacking a Man who is carrying an AR-15 is pretty flipping reckless.
That's exactly what Stephen Wileford did in response to the Sutherland Springs shooting. Was he reckless?
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Old November 6, 2021, 05:49 PM   #223
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and there's little evidence to indicate that he made any impact on the events
I would say that's inaccurate . There has been testimony Kyle did in fact put out fires and help patch people up that night and that's from the prosecutions witnesses . What do you think the defense witnesses are going to say what Kyle was doing that night ? If the defense does not just simply rest at the end of the prosecutions case . I'm sure the defense will have several witnesses testify on how Kyle made a big difference to them that night .

The prosecution tried to make it look like all Kyle did was yell out medical but never actually did anything medical related that night . That's understandable , why would they have there witnesses help Kyle's defense any more then they already have . However Kyle/the defense has not put on there case yet and this has been my point all along . IMHO right not in a/this case we all should be thinking Kyle is guilty based on a strong showing of evidence by the prosecution . It should now be time for the defense to start poking holes in that evidence do give doubt . However there's already tones of doubt and the defense has not put one witness on the stand yet . The only way they loose is if they get cocky and put Kyle on the stand . When I say loose I mean guilty across the board . Right now I say the best the prosecution gets is a mistrial , maybe a conviction on one of the least damaging charges . No way guilty of any of the homicide charges .

Unless some huge revelations comes forth . Dare I say it ..... If Kyle is convicted on all counts . I believe the judge will sentance him to time served at worst and at best vacate the verdict/s all together if that's what it's called .
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Old November 6, 2021, 05:56 PM   #224
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The PROSECUTION also thought they were scoring points by saying that the night Kyle and the other armed people showed up there wasn't as much damage done, trying it intimate that their presence served no purpose.

I can't find where it happened, but apparently the defense attorney tripped a police officer and got him to admit that there wasn't as much damage and violence the night the armed citizens showed up as there was previous nights.

You may think KR shouldn't have been there, but that is you arguing he used poor judgement, not that he was reckless.

reckless
rĕk′lĭs
adjective
Acting or done with a lack of care or caution; careless or irresponsible.
Inattentive to duty; careless; neglectful; indifferent.
Rashly negligent; utterly careless or heedless.
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Old November 6, 2021, 06:21 PM   #225
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That's exactly what Stephen Wileford did in response to the Sutherland Springs shooting. Was he reckless?
First off he was not unarmed , second he engaged the shooter with his rifle from distance and cover behind his or someone's truck/car , third after all that he pursued him while still being armed , so no Stephen Wileford was not reckless at all .

It really is as if people only hear and see what they want to see .

I posed this question way back in post #28 . Nobody wanted to comment if I recall . At the time before the prosecution put on there case to date I really thought this could be a possibility . After a week of testimony I no longer believe this is possible outcome .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
The interesting argument I’ve ran through my head is .... what if the first shooting which seems to have the most gray area surrounding it , is deemed unjustified ? Does that change the narrative of the above photo or either of the “self defense” action after that first incounter ?

My thought is “if” the first altercation is deemed KR’s fault . Well then instead of a angry mob trying to “get/harm” a poor citizen there to help . It can be argued they are there trying to catch a murderer who just killed a fellow citizen. Doesn’t the same argument now apply to skateboard and Glock guy ? They are just being good citizens trying to stop a killer from killing more ?
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