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Old November 8, 2021, 01:08 PM   #251
ghbucky
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As to rendering medical aid to someone I just shot?? I'm not doing that. Nor am I legally required to. If that make me a cold heartless uncaring SOB, then that's what I am.
There was another thread on that very topic some time in the past, and what I took away from that discussion is that if I just had to use deadly force to stop a threat, the last I am going to do is get within arm's reach of the person I just used it against.
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Old November 8, 2021, 04:47 PM   #252
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Don't know if you saw the footage that was just introduced that was shot from a drone--it clearly shows KR wasting Rosenbaum while there was still feet of separation between them.
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Old November 8, 2021, 04:52 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
Don't know if you saw the footage that was just introduced that was shot from a drone--it clearly shows KR wasting Rosenbaum while there was still feet of separation between them.
Just how many feet?
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Old November 8, 2021, 05:13 PM   #254
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That part is hard to say--but sooner or later it will probably appear publicly--so you can see for yourself.
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Old November 8, 2021, 06:06 PM   #255
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Don't know if you saw the footage that was just introduced that was shot from a drone--it clearly shows KR wasting Rosenbaum while there was still feet of separation between them.
Feet ? as in arms length , while running towards and lunging at Kyle ??? I'm sure you aren't saying the defendant is required to let the aggressor actually touch him before defending him self ?? I think it's fare to say if an attacker gets ahold of you it very well could be to late to adequately defend your self . There is eye witness testimony form someone that was also just feet away stating Rosenbaum at minimum ran Kyle down and lunged in a way that indicated he was trying to either get ahold of the gun or Kyle him self . Does that video dispute that , Does it show instead of 1 or 2 feet away he was 2 or 3 feet away when shot while aggressively moving towards Kyle .
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Old November 8, 2021, 06:12 PM   #256
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Don't know if you saw the footage that was just introduced that was shot from
a drone--it clearly shows KR wasting Rosenbaum while there was still feet of
separation between them.
What part of lunging was misunderstood from previous testimony?
What part of wait til he takes your weapon is your intent?
What part of fraction of a second is unclear ?

Life or death
He who decides first....
Is more often the one who walks away.


Not a judgement on KR, so much as a general observation of bitter experience.
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Old November 8, 2021, 06:14 PM   #257
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Don't know if you saw the footage that was just introduced that was shot from a drone--it clearly shows KR wasting Rosenbaum while there was still feet of separation between them.
OR, it shows KR stopping a deadly threat at more than arm's length distance...
Whether or not he was justified doing that will be determined by the trial verdict.

And, always remember that the single point of view of a camera lens may not accurately show everything involved.
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Old November 8, 2021, 06:20 PM   #258
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I do believe the prosecutor just lost his case.

https://trendingpolitics.com/cased-c...d-at-him-watch

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. Now, Kyle’s attacker Gage Grosskreutz just gave the defense a rock solid admission that should lead to this case being easily dismissed.

“With your arms up in the air, he never fired, right?” asked the defense attorney.

“Correct,” Grosskreutz responded.

“It wasn’t until you pointed your gun at him, advanced on him, with your gun and your hands pointed at him, that he fired?”, Kyle’s attorney pressed.

“Correct,” Grosskreutz responded again.
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Old November 8, 2021, 06:42 PM   #259
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I do believe the prosecutor just lost his case.
You can see the moment Binger's heart breaks when he puts his head in his hand. They really should have done a better job coaching their witness.

At this point, if I were the defense, I'd just ask for a directed verdict to get things over with.
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:01 PM   #260
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In addition, I believe there was some testimony that Rosenbaum had 'stippling' on his body today, which as I understand is caused by the muzzle blast from a rifle.. IOW, he was shot at near point blank range.

Which would put an end to the discussion that KR shot him too far away to be a threat.
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:01 PM   #261
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They really should have done a better job coaching their witness.
Funny you say that because he was clearly there best prepped witness . Most articulate while engaging the jury directly . Even got to call Kyle a murderer . I will have to say I was stunned when he said correct after that line of questioning . I remember thinking does he know what he just said and how he literally just cost him self $10 million dollars . If there was a reaction I would have liked to have seen it would be his lawyer's reaction to that .
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:07 PM   #262
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That is a pretty bizarre moment, and seems to conflict with earlier testimony from other witnesses. When I see that picture of the moment when a large part of his arm is evaporating as he is getting shot by Rittenhouse--the picture looks to me like his Glock is pointed down--and Rittenhouse is at a nearly 90 degree angle to his arm and body. Of the three shootings, this one comes the closest to being justifiable IMO--but then again it's entirely possible that Grosscruetz felt he needed to "neutralize" someone who had already killed. Once again--deadly threat is in the eye of beholder.
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:11 PM   #263
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In addition, I believe there was some testimony that Rosenbaum had 'stippling' on his body today, which as I understand is caused by the muzzle blast from a rifle.. IOW, he was shot at near point blank range.

Which would put an end to the discussion that KR shot him too far away to be a threat.
I'm reserving judgement on that one . I'd need an expert to testify on stippling because as much as I understand it I can't pretend I don't know how far a fire ball can be seen from a AR muzzle blast at night . Even my smith enterprise flash hider that suppresses all AR muzzle flash even in pitch dark will allow very bad muzzle exhaust burns I'm sure up to a couple feet away . Now if the stippling has a pattern consistent with the birdcage vents then maybe I would say really close for sure . However simple powder burns in the close could happen from feet away . If extreme stippling on the back wound IDK what that would mean but could be seen as bad for Kyle by Jurors unfamiliar with firearms .
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:23 PM   #264
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That is a pretty bizarre moment, and seems to conflict with earlier testimony from other witnesses
Totally agree and why I was stunned . I thought Binger was going to come save him and ask to clarify on redirect but not really . He was clearly avoiding conceding that point for awhile and then BAM . "mike drop"
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:24 PM   #265
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I'll be frank about why the commentary from so many of you disturbs me. At the heart of the matter is the "right" that your personal status to defend while armed with a deadly weapon is somehow elevated to where any bodily contact can conceivably be construed as a potential to disarm you and then use your weapon against you. Somebody may just want to kick your rear and punch you cause they have a beef to pick--but that doesn't mean they have the intent to kill you--you essentially are making that determination as a reason for killing them even though they are not armed. IMO--that leaves the door wide open for "bait and kill" shootings.
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:26 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
That part is hard to say--but sooner or later it will probably appear publicly--so you can see for yourself.
Distance has bearing such as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:40 PM   #267
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At the heart of the matter is the "right" that your personal status to defend while armed with a deadly weapon is somehow elevated to where any bodily contact can conceivably be construed as a potential to disarm you and then use your weapon against you.
In this specific case you have what is clearly a deranged man making very specific threats that 'if I catch one of you alone, I'm going to kill you' and then charging at one of the very same people he had threatened.

THAT is the SPECIFICS of this event. Add to that the witnessed actions of KR attempting to evade him, and trying to defuse the situation by yelling 'friendly' repeatedly... and the response was 'F YOU!'

Remember, lawful use of deadly force in self defense is based on the perspective of the victim. If a reasonable person would believe they were at risk of great bodily harm or death then self defense is lawful.

It seems to me that Rosenbaum provided a whole lot of context to convince KR that he had every intention of killing him.
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Old November 8, 2021, 07:51 PM   #268
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Somebody may just want to kick your rear and punch you cause they have a beef to pick--but that doesn't mean they have the intent to kill you--you essentially are making that determination as a reason for killing them even though they are not armed. IMO--that leaves the door wide open for "bait and kill" shootings.
The issue in those split second moments is that you don't know the intent and waiting to find out could cost you life or limb literally . That really goes to my point , It's not that you simply can kill someone before they touch you . It's that you can stop them from touching you because you are not certain what that touch will do to you .

You have to admit Rosenbaum was not just some random guy looking to give Kyle a Stockton slap . He appeared to be on the edge of violence all night . Would you really be willing to let "that guy" get anywhere near you that night when you were alone . I mean you saw how everyone came to Rosenbaum's aid before he'd been shot Nope nobody did a thing to help Kyle or him . Does anyone think anybody in that crowd would have came to Kyles aid if Rosenbaum started beating the crap out of him ? You just can't let someone like that get ahold of you because it might be the last thing you ever do .

I've said this before and it seems to get lost in the debate . Nobody , at least not me are saying it's OK to kill anyone . It is however OK to stop someone from carrying out there will with any means necessary when you reasonably feel they are going to harm you greatly . It's NOT that Kyle was trying to kill anyone , he was trying to stop them from harming him . Unfortunately two people died while he was doing so . Remember he didn't kill everyone that attacked him or who he felt was a threat . In reality Gaige was lucky where the gun was pointed and Huber was not . Kyle was not trying to kill anyone , that is clear or they'd all be dead along with a few others .
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Old November 8, 2021, 08:27 PM   #269
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Somebody may just want to kick your rear and punch you cause they have a beef to pick--but that doesn't mean they have the intent to kill you--you essentially are making that determination as a reason for killing them even though they are not armed. IMO--that leaves the door wide open for "bait and kill" shooting
The delusion is that anyone has a right to kick my rear and punch me. I do not have the mind reading skills to know a violent physical attack will be a butt kick and a punch.
All I need to know is I am being violently physically attacked. I cannot know the extent of the injuries I might receive from that attack.

Every year,more people are killed by fists and feet than rifles. KR was carrying a rifle.

In my case,I'm an Old Guy. I get up off the ground real slow.If I go down at all,I can get kicked/stomped to death before I get back up. I have some medical issues. Its not up to you to decide where I can draw the line about being "In Mortal Fear For My Life" I suggest you err on the side of caution.

Someone wrote "All I need to now I learned in Kindergarten" Don't hit people. Don't kick people. Don't take what is not yours.
Following that simple plan would have saved two lives and one gunshot injury.

No one has the right to light dumpster fires . Its OK for another person to extinguish the dumpster fire.

Now,here is a very important part. No place is there a law that says "I'm so mad he put out my dumpster fire its justified for me to physically attack him"

A juvenile lack of control over emotions that leads to violence...Golly Gee,what are the stats on that one? Becoming a mature adult can save your life.

Last edited by HiBC; November 8, 2021 at 08:40 PM.
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Old November 8, 2021, 08:33 PM   #270
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Every year,more people are killed by fists and feet than rifles. KR was carrying a rifle.
There's this
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Old November 8, 2021, 11:18 PM   #271
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At the heart of the matter is the "right" that your personal status to defend while armed with a deadly weapon is somehow elevated to where any bodily contact can conceivably be construed as a potential to disarm you and then use your weapon against you.
Maybe the shark wants you for lunch. Maybe he's just curious what you taste like. Doesn't matter, you still get bit.

Do people overreact? yep. Sometimes those people end up in jail. Sometimes, they don't.

Do people underreact? Yep. Sometimes, those people survive, sometimes, they don't.

An expert can "disarm" you of your wallet just bumping into to you. Do you feel a person needs to wait until an attacker gets a hand on your gun to be confident of their intentions?

Personally, I don't see where their intentions matter one bit. What they DO, leads me to believe what they intend to do, and I'm not going to wait until after my ass is kicked before believing they intend to kick my ass.

ONE PUNCH CAN KILL. Usually doesn't but with the right conditions it absolutely can. Sorry, but I don't need to have the bear actually bite me to know he intends to.

I guess we're just going to have a philosophical disagreement on that.
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Old November 9, 2021, 12:31 AM   #272
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I guess we're just going to have a philosophical disagreement on that.
I think this is accurate , we all see things just a tad different regardless of the issue and some see things very different . I don't know if it's the same but this general debate reminds me of some family member/friend or co-worker etc that often say why didn't the cop just shoot him in the leg or some such . No you shoot center mass period , largest target area and most likely the best place to cause enough damage to stop the threat . That does not mean you are trying to "kill" them only stop them as fast as possible . Sometimes that results in there death but not all the time . Heck I bet most of the time it does not in a self defense incident .

On a side note I really thought they were going to push the idea of Kyle illegally having the firearm more . Playing on the idea if he never had it as he should not have none of this would have happened . Still one more day I guess for them to bring it up . Sounded like the defense have witnesses lined up for Wednesday .
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Last edited by Metal god; November 9, 2021 at 12:39 AM.
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Old November 9, 2021, 01:01 AM   #273
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Branca's take - Day 5
>
> Grosskreutz is fortunate that modern American courtrooms don’t do trial by
> combat, because otherwise he’d have been carried out of the courtroom
> mortality wounded by his own testimony....
>
https://lawofselfdefense.com/rittenh...-on-the-stand/

Add to that... (ABC source)
>
> Defense lawyer] Richards displayed photos and video that he said show
> Rittenhouse using restraint from shooting people approaching him with their
> hands up, including Grosskreutz when he initially approached Rittenhouse
> after he had been knocked to the ground and kicked. He claimed
> Rittenhouse only shot Grosskreutz when the man aimed a gun near his head.
>
> He then said Rittenhouse fatally shot Huber after Huber allegedly hit him in
> the head with a skateboard twice, the second time after the teen
> was on the ground and kicked in the face by an unidentified individual
> he referred to as the "jump-kick man."
>
> Under cross-examination from Richards, [witness] Black said that during the
> protest he witnessed Rittenhouse providing first aid to injured protesters
> and confirmed that he told investigators "the only person I saw helping
> anyone was Kyle."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/kyle-ritte...ry?id=80921728

Hmmmm.....
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Old November 9, 2021, 11:05 AM   #274
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To me it's a simple case of self-defense. He's fleeing. He hears gunshots behind him. He is knocked down. A gun is pointed at him. Now even the injured attacker admitted to raising a gun towards him. The case is a waste of public funds.

The only question in my mind was the prosecuting attorney (or district attorney) elected with funds from Soros?
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Old November 9, 2021, 11:28 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
I'll be frank about why the commentary from so many of you disturbs me. At the heart of the matter is the "right" that your personal status to defend while armed with a deadly weapon is somehow elevated to where any bodily contact can conceivably be construed as a potential to disarm you and then use your weapon against you. Somebody may just want to kick your rear and punch you cause they have a beef to pick--but that doesn't mean they have the intent to kill you--you essentially are making that determination as a reason for killing them even though they are not armed. IMO--that leaves the door wide open for "bait and kill" shootings.
In Texas that meets the standard for self defense.
Quote:
In Texas, self-defense is defined by Texas Penal Code 9.31. This section states that “a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.”
Deadly force usage:
Quote:
When is Deadly Force Justified in Texas?

Under Texas law, the use of deadly force to defend yourself is justified if: 1) the actor would be justified in using deadly force to defend against an attack because the actor reasonably believes that deadly force is necessary to protect the actor from the unlawful use of force; or 2) when the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to defend against illegal use of unlawful deadly force. In layman’s terms, this means if the average person is in a situation where someone is using unlawful force, deadly or not, in an attempt to harm the person in question.
https://www.robertguest.com/self-def...dly-force.html

Note this excludes the additional "outs" Texas has in regards to protection of property, stopping theft etc that are a bit unique.

Quote:
On a side note I really thought they were going to push the idea of Kyle illegally having the firearm more . Playing on the idea if he never had it as he should not have none of this would have happened . Still one more day I guess for them to bring it up . Sounded like the defense have witnesses lined up for Wednesday .
Agreed. I would have thought they would have pushed that heavily, that and the whole coming to another state thing.
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