Personal Affronts and Insults -- A Question

[mk86fcc]

Recently some young - ahem - "gentlemen" took issue with my driving skills in a WalMart parking lot. Seems they were upset I didn't lock up my brakes when they decided to cross in front of me with no warning. In fact, they made some very impolite remarks. Normally I smile and wave, but for some reason this day it just wasn't gonna fly with me. I told 'em bring it on. Even pulled over into a parking spot so's we could "continue our discussion." Unforunately, I was carrying. I immediately slipped my holster out and stuffed it under the seat. The young gentlemen apparently decided they didn't really want to continue our debate, even though there were two of them and just li'l ol' fart me... Not sure why - I'm really not much of an imposing figure. Nonetheless, it's probably just as well - they'd have probably kicked my butt. In retrospect, I was quite foolish - my Plan A of "smile and wave" really does seem to be the best course of action.

[JerryM]

Here is my assessment of what will happen if you get into a fight over honor.
No deadly force.
You will be arrested, lose your CHL, and pay some lawyer fees of probably several thousand dollars.

Deadly force, and you kill or shoot someone.
Arrested, gun confiscated, charged with a felony, tried and probably found guilty of a felony charge, spend 50,000 or more in lawyer fees, and spend some time in jail. You will be a felon forever.

Just plain foolish. Is it worth that to convince some punk that you are a man of honor and will fight for it?

Jerry

[ahenry]

I think JerryM hit on something important with his example of King David, regardless of your religious beliefs. If you notice from that example, David didn’t respond with force when he was belittled. He did find the use of force appropriate when another’s “honor” was called into question (to use a more modern turn of phrase). I feel much the same way. An individual or groups of individuals can say just about anything they want about me, I wouldn’t even take the time to verbally respond. I will however respond, even to the point of force, to protect and defend those that I have a responsibility to defend.

[PATH]

Discretion is the better part of valor.

[JerryM]

I think that much of the time one speaks of honor it involves pride. I don't have to take that. Who do you think you are? I have rights, etc.
That pride is often destructive.

But another honor includes integrity. It has nothing to do with the type of pride that makes us think we are too good to take guff. Instead the honor of integrity is about being honest and trustworthy. That doesn't require fighting, but just a determination that you will do that which is morally right.

One of the sins that God hates is pride. It leads to all sorts of other sins and problems.

Jerry

[nobanforme]

I have a neighbor who is a complete idiot he thinks everyone is out to get him. he thinks that everyone is trying to poison him and his dog. he has verbaly assaulted everone who lives around him, and we all have restraining orders against him. Well one morning I was leaving to go to work and he chased my truck down the road when I stopped at the stop sign at the corner he reached in my window and hit me and do you know what I STILL DID NOT SHOOT HIM! Even tho I could have, as I always carry. After a long time he was convicted of assault and is serving probation. I did not shoot him because I did not feel he was a threat to my life. I live in Utah and we have some very good laws about the use of deadly force. even tho I could have shot I did not even draw my gun.

[Danindetroit]

mk86fcc I guess I am a little confused by your post. How fast were you driving in a wal-mart parking lot? What kind of warning is a pedestrian supposed to give you? How old were these people? Did you want them to run out of your way? In most states a pedestrian has the right-of-way. I have had drivers looking for a parking spot turn from one aisle onto the street in front of the store and accelerate at me, and I at least stared them down if not commenting on their driving abilities.

[Double Naught Spy]

For those that feel you need to fight for your honor because somebody called you a name, I would offer this. You are lacking honor or are so insecure in what little honor you have that you think a moron with an unkind word could damage your so-called honor. If you are that insecure, then maybe guns really are not for you.

[joerng]

i would not go carrying a wepon just because someone made me mad if you feel that your life is in danger than by all rights you can get a bug and carry. but just think if you draw down on this unsespecting punck, that buzzes in your year once and awhile you have got to be ready to tke his life. ask your self are you ready to kill another human and for what are you willing to do it. guns are not barginning tools if i break leather someone is going to get hurt and maybe die. i never draw in bluff. and no one should ever do that.

[joab]

I tried to teach my son's that there is nothing that anyone can say or do short of physical contact that would effect your life in any meaningful way.
But your reation to it can
Pretend every one around you is built like Mike Tyson, but less controlled, and you're built like Andy Dick, but with a brain.

[Danindetroit]

Yippee what state is it legal to not allow a pedestrian to have the right-of-way, then take exception with them for pointing that out to you, then you stop your car, when you could have just kept on driving and then get in a fist fight, decide you are losing and then shoot the people and go free. I have a feeling that would put the ccw movement back a little ways.

[progunner1957]

QUARTUS correctly notes that "when you are armed, you give up your right to defend your honor" in 21st century (pu$$!f!ed) America.

It goes deeper than that, buddy; it seems as if we have NO RIGHT to defend our honor - or that of our wives or girlfriends - in 21st century America. Beat down some maggot for mouthing off to your wife and who is going to pay? YOU ARE!!!

What does this mean? It means that we live in a culture dominated by a so-called legal system that has no grasp of the concepts of honor, personal dignity or integrity. The authorities say "we can't have people beating on other people for "just" insulting them!!! It would be... ANARCHY, God forbid!!! It would be the wild west all over again!!

NO, after a number of public beatings with no consequence other than the police on the scene saying, "gee, buddy - maybe you shouldn't have asked that man's wife to **** your ####, did you ever think of that??" it would eventually dawn on people that hmmmm, let's see... I don't want my @$$ beat... maybe I should keep my cake hole shut!!

The result would be a more polite society... what a concept!
(I know, I know... I'm dreaming)

[Danindetroit]

progun I have said many times that if 2 people or more want to fight, they should be able to have a fistfight with no legal ramifications. People say that violence never solved anything, What about WWII? I agree that when this happens we will have a politer society.

[Danindetroit]

yippee that is ver y interesting, I hear about this ability to get out of the way of punches, and kick accurately to body parts and smash ankles, kneecaps, legs. I played Police athletic league soccer when young got kicked in the legs a bunch of times, and only once when the other guy was wearing a type of shin guards that had metal in them did I even get hurt. What is this so called punk you seem, to harp-on. Is it an age group or a person who does not show you respect?

[Danindetroit]

I took Kenpo for a year. I sparred every saturday during that time. Me and my friend would also sparr outside. I have gotten into a great many fights. I never tried to cripple anybody who I could look at and see that they did not know what they were doing. If i wanted to teach a "punk" like that a lesson, I would just give them an open-handed smack to the side of the face, that dropped them to the ground, and taught them a lesson, I do not enjoy hurting people. If a person holds themself like they know what they are doing, I might kick to the leg and hope they tried to punch so I could pull them off balance, most of the fights I got into were because of friends being in trouble. I have had a few people try to get me to fight them in a bar with a lot of bouncers who were their friends around, I usuall just waited till they went to the bathroom and took care of business as they were using the facilities. I am not a bada** but the stuff that happens on Steven Segal movies and real life is different. I learned a long time ago if I was frustrated to go to the gym and do squats, nothing will work off frustration like trying to do squats where you "sit on your heels with 315lbs on the bar. If these kicks are so dangerous why are they not used in the UFC, or K-1, or Pride. All you have to do is be balanced and pick that foot off the ground and you did not break anyone's leg. Your technique relies on a person having that foot firmly planted. Like a person who is going for a ball in soccer, and a guy on our team did break an opposing players leg.

[Danindetroit]

I have seen a lot of things go wrong when driving. I drive through parking lots with my foot hovering over the brake, because I know little kids can sneak away from parents, who are loading the car, and get into traffic. I drive down side streets with my music off going about 15 mph, and my window down so I can hear if kids are playing and a ball or toy might roll in the street. I do not have kids, I have worked with a lot of guys who talk about the only reason they work as hard as they do, is so they can get their children into good schools, or buy them stuff, etc. I can respect that. When my wife worked rotating shifts, I volunteered to work on saturdays so the "family" guys could do things with their kids. I have an accident because people did not stop at a stop sign, but rolled up and across a walking/bike path, into the right of way of a little girl who hit the car with her bike and flipped up onto the hood and landed on her arm. Me and some guys got out to see if she was alright, she already had a large bruise, I thought she had probabley cracked or broken one of the bones in her lower arm, but she said she was ok, the person driving never opened a window, or even stuck around long enough to see if the girl was ok. The driver an older non-punk lady did this so she could save 3 seconds by not stopping and then slowly moving forward to where she could take a right turn. I guess it has made me a little bit more aware of what can happen when driving too fast where people and cars mix. A question for florida drivers to see if they are aggressive driver is if they yield the right of way to pedestrians. I wonder if MK would have gotten mad if these people who walked in front of him were in their 70's would he have cut them a break, or if one of the gentlemen, had just gotten his wisdom teeth pulled and was going to get a prescription filled.

[OBIWAN]

And if two people decide to have a fistfight and someone dies.

That other someone is likely to find himself incarcerated.

I guess he showed him!!

[SatCong]

Ending about three years ago, I spent the better part of eight years bouncing a bar. I have some experience with handleing crowds and self (unarmed) diffence. I also am licensed to carry and do so every day.
Now let me preface this with: no one who ever needed to leave that club I worked, stayed longer than I wanted them to. That being said, I want you to remember Patrick Swayze in the movie 'Roadhouse'. When you need to act "be nice". When someone insults you and you feel the need to reply, say, "you may be right, opinions vary".
If your opponent trys to perpetrate an act of aggression on you or another in your charge, you are no longer nice, but neither do you ever escalate the confrontation beyond that level necessary to accomplish your goal. It is never about getting even and it is never about testosterone, as both of those things will either get your ass thoroughly kicked and/or litigated to hell and gone.
SatCong

[justice4all]

I became an adult the day I decided to not give a damn what other people think of me. That was long before I started to pack heat, but the same mentality is especially helpful now that I do.

[alvrez2]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains exite me"

There is a lot of crap thrown about these days, mostly by those who are out to prove something either to themselves or those with them. Unfortunately if you don't feed into the ruse and attempt to walk away from it, you disappoint the immature bastard and his frustration leads him to want to escalate the situation.
As a former Navy SF member, black belt, and carrier of firearms, I am screwed any way I turn. I walk away. If you follow me, you'd better be prepared to face the consequences. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

First thing to do... keep walking and ignore the twit. Whatever happens next in the situation keep moving ( a moving target is harder to hit) If you are attempting to distance yourself from the idiot during the entire confrontation and witnesses see this it goes better in court.
If the situation escalates and you feel there is no quick exit, either take out your cell phone or tell someone else to call for LEO backup ...make sure any witnesses hear you telling him that you don't want any trouble. If he still presses but is keeping a reasonable distance and you still feel a threat, inform him (without showing) that you are armed and give him room to exit. Next show him proof of arms, and last resort draw and be prepared to fire.

This is the worst case scenario, most of the time the idiot doesn't think you are worth the time because you didn't respond and will spend his time puffing himself up to his friends because you were "scared" of him. This is the "walk away knowing that if he only knew" scene.

The bottom line is, most punks are just looking to get a rise out of someone, (whether it is driving accross your lawn, yelling at you in the crosswalk or whatever) when it doesn't happen they move on. Chalk it up to adolescent overindulgence in testosterone, or alcohol (I havent figured out which is worse) and walk away knowing that you can handle the situation but you chose not to.

"Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill."

[jtkwon]

I'm a fan of the "no swords" school of fighting.

[RoyalPython]

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me

You may of remembered and said this as a little kid.

Try to also use it as an adult and say it to yourself if someone offends you verbally.

Keep the gun holstered.

If armed people went around threatening each other over petty crap, there would be no states in the U.S. that would allow CCW.

Thankfully most of us are adults that act like an adult.

[ghostdoc]

I don't want to lose my cherished toys. Makes me think twice. In NJ a little fist fight ( if the police get involved) will be cause to lose all your guns. Handguns, shotguns, all guns. If and when the time comes for deadly force (I hope it never does) I think you will know it. Good luck. gd

[Danindetroit]

Next show him proof of arms

This is usually refered as brandishing. I am not sure but I think this is illeagal. My posts were in reply to a person named yippe who managed to get his posts pulled in 1 day. He claimed to have been stomping punks for the last 40 years. He recommended using a side kick to break a person's leg, for making rude comments about somebody's driving. I almost always gotten into fights to help friends. I have been in a situation where a group of people didn't approve of something, I did, or wore, or whatever. There was a group and they blocked my way. I have never carried a gun. Before "mob mentality" could take over I took the initiative, and gave the ringleader a smack, which dropped him. I just looked the rest in the eye, and walked around them. I will not be intimidated by anybody. I would rather fight 1 person than 5. Gangs or bullies will pick on the weak. I have no idea what people are talking about honor, or pride, I am talking about survival. This was in an area where a "gang" hung out. This gang had hassled people I know, trying to steal their chains. This was at least 10 years ago. I talked to a retired gentlemen, who says the area was infamous for this type of gang activity. I was defending myself, nobody got shot, the person I hit could have called the police, because he saw my car, and they knew where I went. They did not call police because they knew what they wanted to do. Now if somebody comes up and wants to fight a ccw holder who can not defend themselves with their hands, or who can, they have to worry about this person getting ahold of their firearm. I think learning "firearms" is a small part of self-defense.

[Indy_SIG]

......I don't pick fights with people who do things like this, but I do not hesitate to confront them, and if they choose to get physical, then I deal with it and the situation usually resolves itself for the better. At least, that's how I used to do things.

Your premise is a bit troubling. You state that these situations have always been "dealt with" in the past w/o the use of a firearm. Yet you now feel the need to carry a firearm and are concerned that you will somehow have to change or be compelled to use said firearm.

In the aforementioned instances, HAD you been armed, could you have not "dealt with" the situation the same way? Would anyone have known you were armed?

Carrying a gun is 100% a DEFENSIVE decision and the use of said gun is reserved to situations in which your life is in danger or you are in danger of substantial bodily harm (you or another person in your midst.) The situations you describe don't seem to fit the prerequisite.

Probably a bit more common-sense than you were looking for.