Stray bullet

Spydr1299 · November 20, 2011, 03:02 PM

Hey guys, question for the vets, or anyone who knows the answer...

I'm fairly new to reloading, about 3 months in. I've seen how much it can make a difference in my groups and am very pleased. For the past month or so, I think I have found a good load for my rifle, but every once in a while, a round or two will stray about 2-3 inches off the rest of the groupings. This is about out of 10 or so rounds. I keep all my loads the same but still have those couple of strays and would like to know what it is I can do to keep them contained like the rest of the group. Feels like I'm missing something. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

My loads for 100yds:

Remington 700sps .223 bolt action
55g v-max
Remington cases
Cci small rifle primer no. 550
22.3g of H335

603Country · November 20, 2011, 03:14 PM

I don't know how much case prep you do, but it could be an 'offspec' case or two that's causing the problem. Mark the cases that the flyers came out of and if it happens again throw away those cases. I used that toss method years ago before I was really into case prep and case weights and all of that. I didn't even have cases from the same lot, though they were all the same manufacturer. If I knew that my hold had been good and I still got a flyer, I'd pitch the case or at least mark it. Once I got down to 50 or 60 cases that had passed the no-flyer test, accuracy was terrific.

TXGunNut · November 20, 2011, 03:28 PM

I've been chasing the answer to that question for about 30 yrs now and quite often it seems the only variable I can't control is the loose nut behind the trigger.

Other causes include crown imperfections, bullet defects, variations in case neck tension, case capacity and cartridge concentricity. If you're using regular sandbags you may try one that holds the rifle tight or even a bipod with a rear bag. Some scopes require you to be very consistent in your cheekweld; a bit up, down, left or right and you'll find your scope isn't "looking" where you think it is.
For me the pursuit of accuracy is a never-ending battle fought by determining the optimum load for that particular firearm and eliminating every possible variable.

Major Dave (retired) · November 20, 2011, 04:57 PM

bullet run out.

Measure case neck run out before seating your bullets. If in excess of 3 thousandths, try to straighten them by running them through your full length case sizer die, or your neck collet die.

If the brass run out is within 3 thousandths, seat bullets and then measure bullet run out, discarding any completed round exceeding 3 thousandths.

If this procedure doesn't improve your groups, at least you eliminated one possibility.

PawPaw · November 20, 2011, 05:13 PM

Those are called "flyers" and they'll make you crazy if you let them. Things like off-spec cases, bullet run-out, someone not paying attention in the primer factory, or someone not paying attention in the bullet factory, or someone not paying attention at the loading bench, and once in a while one bullet goes zinging off on its own.

You can't worry about flyers. Once in a while they happen. We try to minimize them, and as you get better behind the trigger and better at the loading bench, they'll subside to a level that you can live with.

dagger dog · November 20, 2011, 05:36 PM

It could be something as simple as having a sudden gust of wind at the muzzle when the bullet exits the barrel, that can blow a shot off target, once the wind has pushed the bullet off it's intended course the farther it travels the wider the the miss gets.

Are the flyers vertical or horizontal ? Vertical, is called stringing and that could be mechanical, but most horizontal is shooter induced.

Remember to feel for the wind on your face, if its gusting try to shoot between the gusts, if it's steady compensate by holding off. Watch the trees, bushes, grass see if their moving and compensate accordingly.

Make sure you place the forearm of the rifle on front bag the same place every shot,is the swivel stud contacting the front of the rest ?

Try to mentally run down a check list ,so you touch the shot off the same way every time.

It could be the ammo, but there again as the previous posts states, check and recheck , the biggest gremlin is bullet runout, the bullet not seated straight in the case.

Get a mirror and roll the loaded round on the surface of the mirror, watch the tip of the bullet and it's reflection in the mirror, runout as small as 0.003" can be detected.

Hope some of this helps.

Spydr1299 · November 20, 2011, 05:46 PM

Thanks for the input everyone! Hope to one beat these flyers!

10-96 · November 20, 2011, 06:34 PM

2-3" seems like quite a bit. How do you measure and throw your powder? Do you weigh each and every charge? Also, are you trying to crimp? If you have variations at all in case length, brass from different lots with different neck thicknesses- that could throw monkey wrenches in your soup too.

1 out of 10 sounds too in-frequent for mechanical problems such as loose mounting screws, stock fit, scope, etc. I'm guessing you've not found the issue in factory rolled ammo?

Nathan · November 20, 2011, 06:38 PM

Never had one 2 - 3 inches off. So, some ???'s

Are they horizontal or vertical?

Do you see this with factory ammo?

What bullets? Bullets are 80% of the accuracy equation.

Spydr1299 · November 20, 2011, 07:15 PM

I hand measure powder using a dipper to help decrease inconsistencies. The flyers drop vertically while using hornady 55g vmax bullets. Hard to say about factory ammo as I was all over the place, which is why I got into reloading. I'm not putting any crimp on my rounds. I use the lee collet die and RCBS seater die. I have a cheapo digital scale (mtm case guard) which I sometimes wonder how accurate it is.

10-96 · November 20, 2011, 07:41 PM

Curious. I'm not familiar with H335 or how it settles, stacks, or packs. Wish I was closer to my reloading setup. I have a Lee dipper (hmm, just remembered I'm almost out of snuff), but I use that in conjuction with a beam scale. I dip to close, then use a trickler to get dead on. Do you have a reloading freind close from whom you could borrow a decent quality beam scale? It would be interesting to find out both how consistent those dippers are with different types of powder and how reliable your MTM scale is. Honestly, I would look there, and weigh several batches of 'dips' to see if you scoop exactly the same way each time.

Seriously, there might be something to that. I have a Lee powder dump and an old RCBS dump that both have an adjustable cavity that collects what is to be dumped. That adjustable cavity is mechanically the same thing (a cup) as your dipper. Now both dumps throw charges that are inconsistant enough to warrant trickling up. So just maybe you're getting different amounts of powder into your dipper volume every so often?

Nathan, he's using Hornady V-Max 55gr pills. I can't see those being the culprit.

dahermit · November 20, 2011, 07:46 PM

Spydr1299, before assuming that there is a problem with scope, load, etc., are we correct to assume that you are using a shooting bench, front and rear bags, proper bench rest techniques? The more information about those things can rule-out or point to causes.

Spydr1299 · November 20, 2011, 07:52 PM

Using a bipod with rear sand bags. Tried both front and rear sandbags with same results. Great groups with the occasional flyer

4runnerman · November 20, 2011, 07:55 PM

What TXgunut said would be one

. If all other factors are the same,first thing i would do is try a different primer. CCI are great primers but maybe move to the BR primers in CCI to ensure equal ignition. Try a box of CCI-BR for 100 rounds and see what happens. Case length is checked before each load i assume?.

oneounceload · November 20, 2011, 08:17 PM

Are you letting the barrel cool down enough? Heated barrels cause more flyers than anything I have seen

Nevmavrick · November 23, 2011, 09:34 PM

Doing a little proofreading...You say you are using CCI 550 small rifle primers.
Please tell me what you ARE using. That is a misprint??
H335 is a Ball powder and is easier to dip consistantly than a stick-powder, but you STILL need to weigh it. Some advice was to dip several times and weigh each to find out YOUR consistancy...good idea!!
You're shooting 10-shot groups? Or...2 5-shot and the flyers are in the second group? Is there any particular time in the group (5th and 8th,ie, or 9th and 10th??)
How often has the rifle been swabbed, ie how many groups are fired between cleanings.
H335, like most Ball powders, leaves a strong residue. Personally, I shoot 20-30 rounds, then run a patch with Hoppe's #9 to cut the residue back. I don't try to clean it ALL until I get home, then I try to get the majority (or all) of the copper-fouling out.
What's the last time you cleaned the barrel down to the steel? What do you use for a copper cleaner?
Have fun,
Gene

November 20, 2011, 03:02 PM	#1
Spydr1299 Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 24	Stray bullet Hey guys, question for the vets, or anyone who knows the answer... I'm fairly new to reloading, about 3 months in. I've seen how much it can make a difference in my groups and am very pleased. For the past month or so, I think I have found a good load for my rifle, but every once in a while, a round or two will stray about 2-3 inches off the rest of the groupings. This is about out of 10 or so rounds. I keep all my loads the same but still have those couple of strays and would like to know what it is I can do to keep them contained like the rest of the group. Feels like I'm missing something. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! My loads for 100yds: Remington 700sps .223 bolt action 55g v-max Remington cases Cci small rifle primer no. 550 22.3g of H335

November 20, 2011, 03:28 PM	#3
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	I've been chasing the answer to that question for about 30 yrs now and quite often it seems the only variable I can't control is the loose nut behind the trigger. Other causes include crown imperfections, bullet defects, variations in case neck tension, case capacity and cartridge concentricity. If you're using regular sandbags you may try one that holds the rifle tight or even a bipod with a rear bag. Some scopes require you to be very consistent in your cheekweld; a bit up, down, left or right and you'll find your scope isn't "looking" where you think it is. For me the pursuit of accuracy is a never-ending battle fought by determining the optimum load for that particular firearm and eliminating every possible variable. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

November 20, 2011, 04:57 PM	#4
Major Dave (retired) Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2008 Location: Between Dallas and Shreveport, LA Posts: 569	My first suspicion is bullet run out. Measure case neck run out before seating your bullets. If in excess of 3 thousandths, try to straighten them by running them through your full length case sizer die, or your neck collet die. If the brass run out is within 3 thousandths, seat bullets and then measure bullet run out, discarding any completed round exceeding 3 thousandths. If this procedure doesn't improve your groups, at least you eliminated one possibility. __________________ Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be but a vulgar brawl.

November 20, 2011, 05:13 PM	#5
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	Those are called "flyers" and they'll make you crazy if you let them. Things like off-spec cases, bullet run-out, someone not paying attention in the primer factory, or someone not paying attention in the bullet factory, or someone not paying attention at the loading bench, and once in a while one bullet goes zinging off on its own. You can't worry about flyers. Once in a while they happen. We try to minimize them, and as you get better behind the trigger and better at the loading bench, they'll subside to a level that you can live with. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

November 20, 2011, 05:36 PM	#6
dagger dog Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Posts: 65	It could be something as simple as having a sudden gust of wind at the muzzle when the bullet exits the barrel, that can blow a shot off target, once the wind has pushed the bullet off it's intended course the farther it travels the wider the the miss gets. Are the flyers vertical or horizontal ? Vertical, is called stringing and that could be mechanical, but most horizontal is shooter induced. Remember to feel for the wind on your face, if its gusting try to shoot between the gusts, if it's steady compensate by holding off. Watch the trees, bushes, grass see if their moving and compensate accordingly. Make sure you place the forearm of the rifle on front bag the same place every shot,is the swivel stud contacting the front of the rest ? Try to mentally run down a check list ,so you touch the shot off the same way every time. It could be the ammo, but there again as the previous posts states, check and recheck , the biggest gremlin is bullet runout, the bullet not seated straight in the case. Get a mirror and roll the loaded round on the surface of the mirror, watch the tip of the bullet and it's reflection in the mirror, runout as small as 0.003" can be detected. Hope some of this helps. Last edited by dagger dog; November 20, 2011 at 05:41 PM.

November 20, 2011, 03:14 PM	#2
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I don't know how much case prep you do, but it could be an 'offspec' case or two that's causing the problem. Mark the cases that the flyers came out of and if it happens again throw away those cases. I used that toss method years ago before I was really into case prep and case weights and all of that. I didn't even have cases from the same lot, though they were all the same manufacturer. If I knew that my hold had been good and I still got a flyer, I'd pitch the case or at least mark it. Once I got down to 50 or 60 cases that had passed the no-flyer test, accuracy was terrific.

November 20, 2011, 05:46 PM	#7
Spydr1299 Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 24	Thanks for the input everyone! Hope to one beat these flyers!

November 20, 2011, 06:34 PM	#8
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	2-3" seems like quite a bit. How do you measure and throw your powder? Do you weigh each and every charge? Also, are you trying to crimp? If you have variations at all in case length, brass from different lots with different neck thicknesses- that could throw monkey wrenches in your soup too. 1 out of 10 sounds too in-frequent for mechanical problems such as loose mounting screws, stock fit, scope, etc. I'm guessing you've not found the issue in factory rolled ammo? __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

November 20, 2011, 06:38 PM	#9
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Never had one 2 - 3 inches off. So, some ???'s Are they horizontal or vertical? Do you see this with factory ammo? What bullets? Bullets are 80% of the accuracy equation.

November 20, 2011, 07:15 PM	#10
Spydr1299 Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 24	I hand measure powder using a dipper to help decrease inconsistencies. The flyers drop vertically while using hornady 55g vmax bullets. Hard to say about factory ammo as I was all over the place, which is why I got into reloading. I'm not putting any crimp on my rounds. I use the lee collet die and RCBS seater die. I have a cheapo digital scale (mtm case guard) which I sometimes wonder how accurate it is.

November 20, 2011, 07:41 PM	#11
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	Curious. I'm not familiar with H335 or how it settles, stacks, or packs. Wish I was closer to my reloading setup. I have a Lee dipper (hmm, just remembered I'm almost out of snuff), but I use that in conjuction with a beam scale. I dip to close, then use a trickler to get dead on. Do you have a reloading freind close from whom you could borrow a decent quality beam scale? It would be interesting to find out both how consistent those dippers are with different types of powder and how reliable your MTM scale is. Honestly, I would look there, and weigh several batches of 'dips' to see if you scoop exactly the same way each time. Seriously, there might be something to that. I have a Lee powder dump and an old RCBS dump that both have an adjustable cavity that collects what is to be dumped. That adjustable cavity is mechanically the same thing (a cup) as your dipper. Now both dumps throw charges that are inconsistant enough to warrant trickling up. So just maybe you're getting different amounts of powder into your dipper volume every so often? Nathan, he's using Hornady V-Max 55gr pills. I can't see those being the culprit. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

November 20, 2011, 07:46 PM	#12
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Spydr1299, before assuming that there is a problem with scope, load, etc., are we correct to assume that you are using a shooting bench, front and rear bags, proper bench rest techniques? The more information about those things can rule-out or point to causes.

November 20, 2011, 07:52 PM	#13
Spydr1299 Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 24	Using a bipod with rear sand bags. Tried both front and rear sandbags with same results. Great groups with the occasional flyer

November 20, 2011, 07:55 PM	#14
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	What TXgunut said would be one. If all other factors are the same,first thing i would do is try a different primer. CCI are great primers but maybe move to the BR primers in CCI to ensure equal ignition. Try a box of CCI-BR for 100 rounds and see what happens. Case length is checked before each load i assume?. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

November 20, 2011, 08:17 PM	#15
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Are you letting the barrel cool down enough? Heated barrels cause more flyers than anything I have seen

November 23, 2011, 09:34 PM	#16
Nevmavrick Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2010 Location: Sparks, Nevada, near Reno Posts: 183	Doing a little proofreading...You say you are using CCI 550 small rifle primers. Please tell me what you ARE using. That is a misprint?? H335 is a Ball powder and is easier to dip consistantly than a stick-powder, but you STILL need to weigh it. Some advice was to dip several times and weigh each to find out YOUR consistancy...good idea!! You're shooting 10-shot groups? Or...2 5-shot and the flyers are in the second group? Is there any particular time in the group (5th and 8th,ie, or 9th and 10th??) How often has the rifle been swabbed, ie how many groups are fired between cleanings. H335, like most Ball powders, leaves a strong residue. Personally, I shoot 20-30 rounds, then run a patch with Hoppe's #9 to cut the residue back. I don't try to clean it ALL until I get home, then I try to get the majority (or all) of the copper-fouling out. What's the last time you cleaned the barrel down to the steel? What do you use for a copper cleaner? Have fun, Gene