.44 mag brass........done for?

bamaranger · November 20, 2011, 12:55 PM

I've been shooting my Mtn Revolver a bit lately, and loading ammo for same.

Got into the archives of brass, and started turning up cases that, once sized and prepped, and a slug seated, will allow a jacketed bullet to slip to deep. ie, take a case with seated bullet and pinch length wise between thumb and forefinger, and the slug slides deeper in the case. A lead slug will still seat properly, or seem to. I typically load lead slugs at 3/4 power, the Mtn revolver is a bit spunky otherwise. On a lark I loaded up some jacketed slugs and started finding the problem.

Obviously these cases are on their last legs. And I can't attest to the number of times they've been reloaded, their mixed and from assorted sources. Did they just hit their lifespan?

Its a pain in the neck on the bench, about 1 in 10 will need pulled.

kraigwy · November 20, 2011, 01:09 PM

Sounds to me like someone needs to get a new resizing die.

One that fits your bullets.

243winxb · November 20, 2011, 01:26 PM

The difference is in case wall thickness between brands. Jacketed bullets come in 3 sizes .429" ..4295" & .430" Lead is .430" Check your expander button, it should measure .002" smaller than bullet diameter. A tighter sizing die & the correct diameter expanded can fix this.Neck tension is what holds the bullets, not so much the crimp.

PawPaw · November 20, 2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 243winxb

Check your expander button, it should measure .002" smaller than bullet diameter. A tighter sizing die & the correct diameter expanded can fix this.

That's odd, my .44 dies don't have an expander button, just a straight decapping rod. Nor my .38/.357 dies, nor yet my .45 dies. I don't think that straight wall pistol dies have an expander button.

mrawesome22 · November 20, 2011, 02:00 PM

I have had this problem with fc brass.

No expander ball. You should have a size, flare, and seater/crimp die.

floydster · November 20, 2011, 02:13 PM

No expander button here either

Jerry45 · November 20, 2011, 02:34 PM

Sounds like a crimping problem to me. Not enough or too much roll crimp can cause the problem you’re having. When changing bullet weights and especially when going from lead to jacketed and visa versa the crimping die “usually” needs to be readjusted. If you’re not crimping when using jacketed bullets that’s the problem.

GP100man · November 20, 2011, 11:16 PM

It`s work hardened & springing back after sizing !!!!

Throw brass AWAY that`s not split yet ????? NEVER !!!!

I anneal it (PITA) but do it & use it in the plinking ammo

Funny , most people think ya gotta turn colors on brass but ya don`t ,just make sure it hits the magic temp !

Take a few & try it , ya may find new life in those hardened cases

I`ve done this with 357 & 44 brass .

Sport45 · November 20, 2011, 11:39 PM

Not a button, but all my pistol dies have a powder-through-expander arrangemeny of some sort or another. It's the powder funnel under the dillon measure and the expanding die on the others. How else to you get the flare to prevent shaving when seating lead bullets?

If the flaring die is too big for the bullet you loose neck tension in a big way.

bamaranger · November 21, 2011, 02:11 AM

Got nothing to do with crimping. I seat and crimp in separate operations....backing the die off to seat, then backing off the seater stem and setting the crimp in a separate step.

Went and checked the last small batch I did before making this post. All the cases involved in the problem were R-P's. Hmmmmm!

When loading for jacketed bullets in the future (for my carbines, typically I only shoot 3/4 power lead in the Mtn Rev) I will first sort out all R-P cases.

RE a new sizer......could I have actually "worn out" a carbide sizing die?

GP100man · November 21, 2011, 07:01 AM

Yep

R-P brass is known for having weird alloy problems , I had a lot that after reloading them I put em on the shelf .

Fastforward a couple-a-3 yrs. ,went to shoot some ,grabbed the stored ammo & to my suprise some were split without even being fired

Those were early in my handloading career & were loaded with Hornady .430 240gr. JSP .

But on the flip side in Remingtons defense I have some 44 brass that has been loaded many times over & shows NO signs of work hardening !!!

Sevens · November 21, 2011, 09:49 AM

He's not talking about the sizing die when he says expander button, he's talking about the second die in a three die set, the one that flares the case mouth to accept a bullet. "Expander button" is a term typically reserved for a bottle neck rifle die.

And no, this has nothing to do with crimp. As bamaranger said, this has nothing to do with crimping and cannot be solved by crimping. Trying to solve this by crimping is not only missing the problem, it's creating a new problem and applying a false remedy.

It's either a brass issue or a problem with loose tolerances on the sizing die. It would be exacerbated if his jacketed bullets are on the slim side.

I've experienced the same thing with 10mm brass (R-P nickel) and slim jacketed bullets (Nosler 150 grain JHPs) and the combination of the two results in little to no case mouth tension. In a self-loading pistol, it's an absolute recipe for disaster. In a large caliber revolver, it's asking for a gun with a cylinder locked up after the first shot... or worse.

How I addressed the problem: I used up my supply of Nosler 150s and I now relegate the nickel R-P 10mm mostly for use with cast bullets, which are by their vary nature a thousandth larger in diameter. For this they continue to work and any that don't get culled and recycled.

briandg · November 21, 2011, 09:57 AM

Bama, you still haven't answered regarding your second of 3 dies, the expander die.

What dies are you using? Was it previously owned? Didn't it come with a couple other expander plugs and seating stems maybe?

243winxb · November 21, 2011, 09:58 AM

Quote:

RE a new sizer......could I have actually "worn out" a carbide sizing die?

No, some brass (Remington) has thin walls as said above. And for the funny guys with no expander, you would have a powder-through-expander as said above.

bamaranger · November 21, 2011, 02:23 PM

My dies are RCBS-3 die set, I am the original owner, buying them new some 25-30 yrs ago.

I am nearly certain at this point, I have a brass / case issue, primarlily because of the wide mix of brass, age-origin speaking, that I am using.

What I will do, henceforth, is to purchase a quantity of new .44 mag brass, keep them separate from my old brass, and use the new stuff solely for jacketed carbine loads.

black mamba · November 21, 2011, 03:57 PM

For reference, the Speer and Nosler .44 jacketed bullets are .429", the Sierra are .4295", and the Hornady are .430". Using the Hornadys could solve your problem right there. Just sayin . . .

FM12 · November 22, 2011, 12:44 AM

I had the same problem with a bunch of RP brass in 45 acp years ago. Wont hold the sizeing dimension , too springy I guess.

WESHOOT2 · November 22, 2011, 01:03 AM

I have worn out both cases and dies.

But I still have a few thousand new 44 Mag cases layin' around here somewhere.

Sport45 · November 22, 2011, 02:16 AM

See if the bullets easily slip into the cases after sizing (without expanding / flaring them). If they do, you need a new sizer or thicker walled brass. If they don't you could try sanding off a little of the expander's OD to get more neck tension.

PawPaw · November 22, 2011, 07:50 AM

One alternative to using a powder-thru expanding die is a little die made by Lee, the Universal Case Expanding Die. This thing only flares the case mouth to accept cast bullets. It doesn't extend down into what we're calling the "neck", only puts a gentle flare on the very mouth of the case. I use it when I'm loading cast bullets in bottlenecked rifle cases to prevent lead shaving. Depending on how you set-up the die, it is useful for everything from .22 Hornet thru .45-70. It's a very versatile tool.

November 20, 2011, 12:55 PM	#1
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	.44 mag brass........done for? I've been shooting my Mtn Revolver a bit lately, and loading ammo for same. Got into the archives of brass, and started turning up cases that, once sized and prepped, and a slug seated, will allow a jacketed bullet to slip to deep. ie, take a case with seated bullet and pinch length wise between thumb and forefinger, and the slug slides deeper in the case. A lead slug will still seat properly, or seem to. I typically load lead slugs at 3/4 power, the Mtn revolver is a bit spunky otherwise. On a lark I loaded up some jacketed slugs and started finding the problem. Obviously these cases are on their last legs. And I can't attest to the number of times they've been reloaded, their mixed and from assorted sources. Did they just hit their lifespan? Its a pain in the neck on the bench, about 1 in 10 will need pulled.

November 20, 2011, 01:09 PM	#2
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Sounds to me like someone needs to get a new resizing die. One that fits your bullets. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 20, 2011, 02:34 PM	#7
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Sounds like a crimping problem to me. Not enough or too much roll crimp can cause the problem you’re having. When changing bullet weights and especially when going from lead to jacketed and visa versa the crimping die “usually” needs to be readjusted. If you’re not crimping when using jacketed bullets that’s the problem. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; November 20, 2011 at 02:40 PM.

November 20, 2011, 11:16 PM	#8
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	Scrounger !!!! It`s work hardened & springing back after sizing !!!! Throw brass AWAY that`s not split yet ????? NEVER !!!! I anneal it (PITA) but do it & use it in the plinking ammo Funny , most people think ya gotta turn colors on brass but ya don`t ,just make sure it hits the magic temp ! Take a few & try it , ya may find new life in those hardened cases I`ve done this with 357 & 44 brass . __________________ GP100man Last edited by GP100man; November 20, 2011 at 11:17 PM. Reason: spelin

November 20, 2011, 11:39 PM	#9
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Not a button, but all my pistol dies have a powder-through-expander arrangemeny of some sort or another. It's the powder funnel under the dillon measure and the expanding die on the others. How else to you get the flare to prevent shaving when seating lead bullets? If the flaring die is too big for the bullet you loose neck tension in a big way. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

November 20, 2011, 01:26 PM	#3
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	The difference is in case wall thickness between brands. Jacketed bullets come in 3 sizes .429" ..4295" & .430" Lead is .430" Check your expander button, it should measure .002" smaller than bullet diameter. A tighter sizing die & the correct diameter expanded can fix this.Neck tension is what holds the bullets, not so much the crimp.

November 20, 2011, 02:00 PM	#5
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	I have had this problem with fc brass. No expander ball. You should have a size, flare, and seater/crimp die.

November 20, 2011, 02:13 PM	#6
floydster Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2008 Posts: 472	No expander button here either

November 21, 2011, 02:11 AM	#10
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	more Got nothing to do with crimping. I seat and crimp in separate operations....backing the die off to seat, then backing off the seater stem and setting the crimp in a separate step. Went and checked the last small batch I did before making this post. All the cases involved in the problem were R-P's. Hmmmmm! When loading for jacketed bullets in the future (for my carbines, typically I only shoot 3/4 power lead in the Mtn Rev) I will first sort out all R-P cases. RE a new sizer......could I have actually "worn out" a carbide sizing die?

November 21, 2011, 07:01 AM	#11
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	Yep R-P brass is known for having weird alloy problems , I had a lot that after reloading them I put em on the shelf . Fastforward a couple-a-3 yrs. ,went to shoot some ,grabbed the stored ammo & to my suprise some were split without even being fired Those were early in my handloading career & were loaded with Hornady .430 240gr. JSP . But on the flip side in Remingtons defense I have some 44 brass that has been loaded many times over & shows NO signs of work hardening !!! __________________ GP100man

November 21, 2011, 09:49 AM	#12
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	He's not talking about the sizing die when he says expander button, he's talking about the second die in a three die set, the one that flares the case mouth to accept a bullet. "Expander button" is a term typically reserved for a bottle neck rifle die. And no, this has nothing to do with crimp. As bamaranger said, this has nothing to do with crimping and cannot be solved by crimping. Trying to solve this by crimping is not only missing the problem, it's creating a new problem and applying a false remedy. It's either a brass issue or a problem with loose tolerances on the sizing die. It would be exacerbated if his jacketed bullets are on the slim side. I've experienced the same thing with 10mm brass (R-P nickel) and slim jacketed bullets (Nosler 150 grain JHPs) and the combination of the two results in little to no case mouth tension. In a self-loading pistol, it's an absolute recipe for disaster. In a large caliber revolver, it's asking for a gun with a cylinder locked up after the first shot... or worse. How I addressed the problem: I used up my supply of Nosler 150s and I now relegate the nickel R-P 10mm mostly for use with cast bullets, which are by their vary nature a thousandth larger in diameter. For this they continue to work and any that don't get culled and recycled. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 21, 2011, 09:57 AM	#13
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Bama, you still haven't answered regarding your second of 3 dies, the expander die. What dies are you using? Was it previously owned? Didn't it come with a couple other expander plugs and seating stems maybe?

November 21, 2011, 02:23 PM	#15
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	dies My dies are RCBS-3 die set, I am the original owner, buying them new some 25-30 yrs ago. I am nearly certain at this point, I have a brass / case issue, primarlily because of the wide mix of brass, age-origin speaking, that I am using. What I will do, henceforth, is to purchase a quantity of new .44 mag brass, keep them separate from my old brass, and use the new stuff solely for jacketed carbine loads.

November 21, 2011, 03:57 PM	#16
black mamba Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: SW Florida Posts: 890	For reference, the Speer and Nosler .44 jacketed bullets are .429", the Sierra are .4295", and the Hornady are .430". Using the Hornadys could solve your problem right there. Just sayin . . .

November 22, 2011, 12:44 AM	#17
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	I had the same problem with a bunch of RP brass in 45 acp years ago. Wont hold the sizeing dimension , too springy I guess.

November 22, 2011, 01:03 AM	#18
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	I have worn out both cases and dies. But I still have a few thousand new 44 Mag cases layin' around here somewhere. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 22, 2011, 02:16 AM	#19
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	See if the bullets easily slip into the cases after sizing (without expanding / flaring them). If they do, you need a new sizer or thicker walled brass. If they don't you could try sanding off a little of the expander's OD to get more neck tension. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

November 22, 2011, 07:50 AM	#20
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	One alternative to using a powder-thru expanding die is a little die made by Lee, the Universal Case Expanding Die. This thing only flares the case mouth to accept cast bullets. It doesn't extend down into what we're calling the "neck", only puts a gentle flare on the very mouth of the case. I use it when I'm loading cast bullets in bottlenecked rifle cases to prevent lead shaving. Depending on how you set-up the die, it is useful for everything from .22 Hornet thru .45-70. It's a very versatile tool. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com