How Fast Part II

[kraigwy]

I was ask to post a video. I elected to film one of my students instead of myself.

Took me a while to figure out how to film and post the video. I need to hire a teenager if I'm going to make videos.

This lady, is in her 40s and started shooting in Dec. Taking my 2 hours firearm safety and self defense class. DEFENSE, not training to be an Olympic Pistol Shooter.

The ideal was to be prepared for a possible threat, while still keeping the gun concealed.

She carried in a waist cross draw, Her shooting hand was on the gun, under the sweater. Head not filmed for privacy.

One shot 3 yards in 0.39 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07RZKAAl-YY

[K_Mac]

She is a perfect example of "smooth is fast." Nicely done, both by her and her instructor!

[g.willikers]

Mighty quick there.
Now she should practice keeping the gun on the threat instead of dropping her guard so to speak.
And then continuing on to engaging with multiple hits, like the Mozambique drill or something similar.
You didn't really think you were going to avoid comments from the peanut gallery around here, did you?

[9x45]

No, your clock has a dying battery. You can see it flashing at 24 seconds in. No Grand Master on the planet is that fast. Put in a new battery, run it 10 times in a row, and tell her to keep her finger out of the trigger and don't point the gun at the floor. Also she should learn master grip, finger alongside the gun and hold on the threat. And get rid of the cross draw, that's a accident waiting to happen for a newbie. Go to an OWB belt holster.

[1-DAB]

try it with hands relaxed at sides. no one walks about with their hand on their gun.

[kraigwy]

DAB:

I teach an "un-conventional" SD class based on my 20 years in LE and reading the news

It includes situation awareness. In this stage of my classes (which I teach 2 hours a week from November to the end of May), I point out the below points.

Choose a firearm that can be carried concealed while being comfortable so you will wear it constantly during you're waking hours.

Conceal it so if a suspicious subject is present, you can be prepared with out brandishing.

Being prepared to present your hand gun or empty hands depend on the suspicion is real or not.

No one but you should know whether you are carrying or not.

This video was to show it can be done, not that is the only thing that should be or is covered in my winter long classes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also the battery in this timer is relatively new, plus it's pretty dern close to the other three timers our club owns.

But you or any one else is welcome to visit my class with your timer.

I am well aware there will be nay-sayers in any post on the internet, it makes for conversation which would be boring if everyone agreed with everyone else.

But in reality my training class is for the women in my community, based on what they are looking for an wanting to allow them to protect themselves and families.

I've been doing this for 40 years, I'm not perfect, but I'm the best (and only one) available who is willing to provide this service in this county.

[2damnold4this]

KraigWY, I would watch more of your videos if you decide to post them. I would be interested to see you draw and fire your 642 from your pocket with the timer, starting with your hand in your pocket gripping the revolver and also starting with your hand outside your pocket to demonstrate the time difference.

[1-DAB]

i was at the range yesterday, running thru some drills with both my P320 and my 1911. almost done for the day, had a few magazines left for my 1911. so did some one and two shot drills. best i could do, no concealment, hands at sides, was about 1.36 from beep to bang. i'm sure it would be less if i started with my hand already on the grip.

[Sharkbite]

Clearly establishing count 1 (grip) adds time to the drawstroke. Starting with the grip already established is an unrealistic time hack for the draw stroke

Tactically speaking, of course it makes sense to grip the gun before you need to draw. The problem is that is not always possible.

It has become standard to time shots from either hands at the sides or with the gun at the ready (pick one)

Sub 1 second from a concealed holster without pre-establishing the grip is pretty hard to do. Certainly not what the "average" shooter will ever accomplish. Advertising 1/3 of a second hits from an established grip start is not exactly an apples to apples baseline test of skill comparied to the industry standard.

[K_Mac]

kraigwy my understanding of your post is to show how a relatively new shooter can learn to quickly get a shot on target with a little practice and some instruction from a ready position. If this was your goal, well done!

Yes, there will always be critics, and you may not be in compliance with the standards of competitive shooting. I really don't care if this woman is ready to compete, and my guess is you don't either. Does she still have some work to do? Sure. What to do after the shot, scanning for additional threats and cover, moving and a hundred other things have to be learned. I don't think any of that was the point though.

[kraigwy]

K MAC:

Yes most of these women have never fired a handgun before. Ages run from 14 to 84.

I'm primary a rifle instructor but have been a certified LE (officially) since 1977.

The county commissioners determined a need and contacted our club for a women's class. I was elected and have been doing it for 4 years now. It was one 2 hour class every Wednesday night, now its three "2" hour classes every Wednesday night.

It is as I said a SD class and 95% of the shooting is under 3 yards and with one hand.

I start them out Pointing, without gun. Then they point with the gun, dry firing. Then move to pointing and shooting. After they choose the gun we work on the holster and method of carry.

The problem is I'm about to get more demand then I can handle. Some of the girls keep coming back, I have several that have been attending for four years.

But to be selfish, time permitting I have them staple cards backwards on the back stop. At 28 feet each girl shoots 5 rounds, the worse poker hand brings cookies next week.

I do get a lot of tickets. Its interesting, and the women of the county seem to be getting a lot out of it. I don't advertise, word of mouth gives me more ladies that I can handle.

[AL45]

Let me start by saying that I was impressed with how quick she drew and shot. I would be concerned with her getting her finger on the trigger too soon and possibly firing while drawing and not after she was on target. I would like to see a video where she started by not facing her target, with one hand holding a purse and the other hand holding a drink. To me this would be more of a realistic situation. Or at least a situation where she had her hands at her side and was forced to sweep her sweater out of the way in order to grip and draw.

[pax]

Two hours a week since December adds up to more than 20 hours of training -- and she hasn't yet learned to keep her finger off the trigger when her sights aren't on target.

That's unfortunate.

pax

[9x45]

When the shot timer battery flashes, the results are meaningless. Who was holding the timer? The shooter? The shot timer microphone has to be pointed at the gun, otherwise you have no idea of what it's reading, especially at an indoor range. At 21 seconds in, who says "Where the heck did it go? Good question"

I don't believe for even a half second that a new to handguns anybody can do anywhere near that time and it's never been clearly documented anywhere else in the competitive shooting/training world. Especially for anybody over 25 years of age, not to mention 40 plus, because reflexes start to slow at age 19. Even Jerry Miculek, Jethro "The Jet" Dionisio, Taran Butler and Bob Vogel can't do that. And they are world champion shooters.


Let's see a clear video, that shows the shooters hand position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZI8wcCxRUA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrIgLt1S86w

[James K]

In the real world, most of the time taken to get a gun into action will be response time. That includes recognition of a threat, taking control of the gun, drawing the gun, and getting off a shot. In some situations, it is feasible to have the hand on the gun waiting for things to develop, in others that will not happen, so the draw is "cold".

One thing not always taught is that the armed person, police officer or citizen, must take the time to insure that there is a real threat, and that deadly force is appropriate. That sounds like taking a law course, but really is a matter of only a second. The idea that an armed person should draw and fire at anything and anybody who might be a threat is dangerous; some will even argue that killing an innocent person is of no concern as long as the shooting can be "justified". We have all seen the results of that philosophy carried into police training played out over and over again on national TV. Some feel that a "fast draw, fast shoot" is more important than target identification, threat assessment, and even accuracy. That may be fine in range game playing, shooting against a timer*, where speed is all and everything. Carried over into the real world, it is not good thinking.

Jim

*Anyone old enough to remember Thell Reed and other "fast draw" artists popping caps to stop the timer with the gun aimed at the floor or even still in the holster?

JK

[K_Mac]

Let me just say first that I don't give a rip if the actual time in kraigwy's video is .39 seconds or .89. Teaching women to confidently and safely handle a handgun for personal defense is a worthwhile mission and I applaud him for it.

I think Fax makes a fair point that the woman keeping her finger on the trigger after taking her one timed shot is unacceptable. That's one of those things that has to be done right every time.

James K I see many people practicing lightning speed shooting where no Identification of target or threat is required. While I admire shooting as was demonstrated in 9X45's videos, that is only part of the skills required to be competent in self-defense with a firearm. That is the reason I enjoy threads like this. It forces us to look at mechanical issues and more.

[9x45]

Thell Reed, and all the rest of the cowboy fast draw shooters, have some quick movement and get into the .3s because of the minimal rocking movement. They are also not running live ammo, they use wax bullets or just blanks on the ballons. Live fire, is of course, extremely dangerous, when trying to go super fast, that's why trigger discipline becomes important. Finger on trigger, except when about to engage a threat, is not acceptable. Right after the shot is fired in that video, someone says "WHERE THE HECK DID IT GO?" That's pretty telling, not knowing where you just fired a round. I never, eve, never start newbies with live fire, we start with an AirSoft at 3 yards from the low ready, and inevitability someone has an unintended discharge. Just the sting from the little plastic 6mm BB is enough to remind them about where their finger should be. We just DQ'd (disqualified) a guy at a local competitive match for popping a cap during the draw, which hit less than 3" from his foot and the RO (Range Officer) took a frag in his cheek.

[motorhead0922]

Where did the bullet go? It's clearly in the C zone, just lower left of the body A zone.

[9x45]

It's what they said... Why was the shooter holding the clock? Instead of the Range Officer? And the clock is facing backwards on in indoor range with a low a battery, which means the value is bogus. Any NROI Range Officer would hold the clock above and to the right with the microphone facing the gun.

[pax]

*Anyone old enough to remember Thell Reed and other "fast draw" artists popping caps to stop the timer with the gun aimed at the floor or even still in the holster?

Not old enough, but I do remember what Bill Jordan wrote about something similar: "Such records I consider without meaning since no accuracy was involved. The history of gun fighting fails to record a single fatality resulting from a quick noise." – Bill Jordan

Frankly, though, I'm far less concerned about that than I am about misplaced priorities in training.

Teaching students how to live safely with the gun via safe gunhandling habits should be a primary concern, not an optional extra tacked on after blamblamblam.

pax

[JohnKSa]

I don't believe for even a half second that a new to handguns anybody can do anywhere near that time and it's never been clearly documented anywhere else in the competitive shooting/training world. Especially for anybody over 25 years of age, not to mention 40 plus, because reflexes start to slow at age 19. Even Jerry Miculek, Jethro "The Jet" Dionisio, Taran Butler and Bob Vogel can't do that. And they are world champion shooters.

Comparing apples to oranges.

You do realize that the shooter in kraigwy's video was already holding the gun when the buzzer went off, right?

The video shows someone starting from a "modified ready position" (gun already in the hand but not pointed at the target) and hitting a torso-sized target at 3 paces from the buzzer. All they had to do is get the gun more or less pointed at the target (a large, close target, for that matter) and pull the trigger. The hit was only a C-Zone hit, so they're not even restricted to making A-Zone hits.

That's tremendously different than starting with the hands away from the gun, beginning to move them to the holstered gun at the buzzer, acquiring a grip, drawing the gun from the holster, bringing the other hand to the gun, aiming the gun and firing the shot.

Everything in blue in the sentence above is NOT done by the shooter in kraigwy's video but IS done by the shooters in the videos you posted.

The bigger issue, as pax points out, is that the shooter is obviously distracted after the shot and kept her finger on the trigger after she was done shooting.

[rpseraph]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

starting with the hands away from the gun, beginning to move them to the holstered gun at the buzzer, acquiring a grip, drawing the gun from the holster, bringing the other hand to the gun, aiming the gun and firing the shot.

This is also how I was trained in the classes I've taken and it is how I practice. I haven't gotten a shot timer yet, but that would be an interesting thing to track. My primary concern is being able to draw from concealed and get rounds on target in a smooth action.

[kraigwy]

Didn't mean to start all the fuss. I thought the original topic was speed, but we've moved to judging a whole 80 plus hour class on a <40 second video.

To be truthful the first hours the students don't even touch the gun.

Yes some get fast but that slows down quite a bit when Shoot-No Shoot targets are involved.

And yes maybe the lady was confused after firing one round, but that's understandable when she's been told for hours to fire two shoots every time she shoots.

The video isn't the class. I've posted other videos in the past, that shows another small segment but again not the whole class.

Here is another we can find fault with.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...tta%2092FS.AVI

Anyone is free to visit the class if they wish to see more then 40 seconds.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Safety issues aside, arguing about whether or not something that's on video and audio did or did not happen is just, well, there's lot of words...

A 2 minute process of importing the video into an editor and watching/listening frame by frame proves exactly how fast the shot was.

The first hint of a sound from the timer occurs at 16 seconds, 12 frames. The first hint of the shot occurs at 16 seconds, 23 frames. The video is recorded at 30 frames per second. 23 frames minus 12 frames is 11 frames. 11divided by 30 is....

0.3666666

30 fps is not fast enough to get an exact time but it's plenty close enough to prove that it's really darn close to 0.39 seconds.

[K_Mac]

Kraig I would like to see more but your link doesn't open for me.

You know that anything posted on the interweb is subject to question, review and ridicule! That isn't all bad. The woman's confusion and failure to remove her finger from the trigger and come back to ready at the end of the exercise can be a great teaching tool. It illustrates clearly that when under stress even fundamental safety practices can be compromised unless proper focus is maintained.

I'd love to come hang out with you and the girls, but I am afraid my finances and wife won't allow it! Keep up the good work.