Anyone tried Bill Wilson's 5X5 Skill Test? Post your time here

BCGlocker · November 8, 2015, 01:19 PM

I watched several videos about this test, it seemed so easy and everyone is either a master or a grandmaster. Well, it is not that easy. I shot in 21 second plus 2 second penalties. I shot an expert with a Glock 21. I will try to shoot it again with G17 to see if I can be a bit faster. Please post your results here.

Info on the test is at http://wilsoncombat.com/new/5x5-drill.asp

Target: One standard IDPA, 10 yards downrange

Scoring: IDPA Limited Vickers, 25 shots total

1. Count 25 shots on target (24 in the body and 1 in the head).

2. Add .50 seconds for each hit in the “-1” area.

3. Add 1.5 seconds for each hit in the “-3” area.

4. Add 2.5 seconds for each hit off target (and SLAP yourself).

Start Position: Hands at your sides facing target. No concealment garment necessary.

Procedure:

String 1: Draw and fire 5 shots freestyle (two hands)

String 2: Draw and fire 5 shots strong hand only

String 3: Draw and fire 5 shots freestyle (two hands), reload from slidelock and fire 5 more shots freestyle

String 4: Draw and fire 4 shots to the body and 1 shot to the head freestyle

Skill ranking (Bill Wilson’s Opinion)

Grand Master: 15 seconds or less
Master: 20 seconds or less
Expert: 25 seconds or less
Sharpshooter: 32 seconds or less
Marksman: 41 seconds or less
Novice: 50 seconds or less
Not proficient enough to carry a handgun: Over 50 seconds

Slimjim9 · November 8, 2015, 03:44 PM

Wish I had seen this before I went to the range yesterday. I'd have given it a try. At 7 yds I might could hit Expert. At 10 yards I'd be happy if I got anything above Novice.

For some reason my accuracy really heads downhill past 7 yds.

g.willikers · November 9, 2015, 08:33 AM

Quote:

For some reason my accuracy really heads downhill past 7 yds.

It's back to the basics, preferably with someone knowledgeable watching to see what's wrong.
Or just get a bigger target.

BCGlocker · November 9, 2015, 08:49 AM

Slimjim9, just run the test several times and adjust between speed and accuracy. Even grand masters have to do the same.

g.willikers · November 10, 2015, 10:00 AM

Wish there was a place around here that allowed doing this drill.
Fast shooting and drawing from the holster are generally frowned on.
Without going to an actual match, about the only way to practice this stuff is with my trusty airguns.
Guess I'll have to give it a try that way.
Kind of cheating, though, even with a blowback pistol that recoils about the same as a .22.
Oh well.

Slimjim9 · November 10, 2015, 10:28 PM

Good point. I wouldn't have been able to draw from the holster. I can't shoot follow up shots anywhere near that fast anyway. I'm still gonna try to simulate it next time I get to the range

MrBorland · November 12, 2015, 07:52 PM

These are pretty standard IDPA drills (and IDPA scoring) on IDPA targets. I've been an active IDPA competitor for a while, and I've done them often enough (with a revolver) to know what I can typically do on each - so my raw time would normally be in the 14 - 16 second range. My Points Down (PDs) are typically in the 5 - 10% (of my raw time) range, so I'm pretty confident I'd fall in the 15.4 - 17.6 range. With a speedloader-fed revolver.

With a semi-auto, my reload is about a second to a second and a half quicker, and each draw-to-1st shot would be about 0.2 quicker (0.8 total), so I'm fairly sure I'd be looking at 16 or better with a semi-auto.

BCGlocker · November 12, 2015, 08:24 PM

Mr. Borland, that is very impressive. Good shooting.

gyvel · November 12, 2015, 08:33 PM

LOL!! Glad I investigated this thread. I thought it was going to be about A.A.

Very nice shooting.

Slimjim9 · November 14, 2015, 01:58 PM

Well, that was an eye opener and not in a good way.

I had to run a highly modified test. I did it from 7yds instead of ten, started each string from the low ready not drawing, and my timer was the stopwatch on my iPhone sitting on the shelf. I had to start the timer with my left finger, shoot the string, then stop the timer. I'm sure this added some "unfair" time to the test. Also I didn't have an IDPA target.

I ran the test twice. First of all with my EDC LCR357 meaning the reload was from a speed strip. Time was, dare I write this down, 51.91, probably 10 or more was the reload. The accuracy penalties I'm not sure how to measure because of the target difference, but however you look at, it's not good. One off target and the head shot barely grazed the neck.

Slimjim9 · November 14, 2015, 02:06 PM

I reran the test with my Glock 19 and did better. Time was 34.25 with marginally better accuracy though still much room for improvement.

I guess I know what I'm going to be doing with my range sessions from now on.

BCGlocker · November 14, 2015, 04:59 PM

Yeah, it is not as easy as it seemed. I have great respect for all the shooters shot in low teens. These people have skills.

MrBorland · November 14, 2015, 07:29 PM

IMO, 34 sec with a G19 is very respectable for someone who hasn't tried this type of shooting before. Kudos.

If nothing else, these drills are good to simply show that basic CCW skills such as drawing, shooting and reloading efficiently are deceptively difficult and take a lot of practice.

couldbeanyone · November 14, 2015, 08:14 PM

Well, gave it a try today. Shot all four strings consecutively, no do overs. All draws were from concealment, ( that is how i always draw even in a match), with my Glock 19. Total time was a 15.99, add 1.5 seconds for the three shots outside the "A" zone, and you get a total of 17.49. Funny, I don't feel like a master.

Slimjim9 · November 14, 2015, 09:53 PM

Look like one to me.

BCGlocker · November 20, 2015, 08:51 AM

couldbeanyone, that is some great shooting from concealment.

I just shot the drill with my G17 last night. I had a raw time of 14.58 second and 4.5 seconds penalty make a total of 19.08.

As a side note, my stock G21 and G17 have a factory 5.5 trigger, my splits range from 0.25 to 0.32 on G17. I know I can shoot the Bill Drill with .15 splits using my custom 1911 with 2.5 lb trigger.

I did not shoot it from concealment as Bill indicated it is not necessary. I certainly admire and envy of those great shooters can make Master or Grandmaster time shooting from concealment. I am humbled.

couldbeanyone · November 20, 2015, 10:35 AM

BCGlocker, I'm not a serious competitor. I shoot only local matches. If it's over about 75 miles from home, I'm not going. Every draw I have made for years has been concealment. If I shoot a steel challenge match, I draw from concealment. They are always happy to let me. So, drawing without a cover garment would feel strange to me. So just a matter of practice. So really not that impressive, just lots and lots of repetitions.

1-DAB · November 20, 2015, 12:31 PM

i have the course of fire printed out in my 'range book' for my next trip. i'll give it a try.

as for drawing from concealment, excellent idea. practice/compete the way you carry if you can. when an IDPA stage says concealment is optional, i keep my vest/jacket on. if i want a further challenge, i try for head shots over body shots, smaller target, more of a challenge. i miss sometimes, but not always.

Sevens · November 20, 2015, 02:17 PM

This sounds like a fun thing to try. I would expect that my very first try will land somewhere in the middle... but I have no idea. I also expect (or demand of myself!

) that my score would improve if I keep running the drill.

It will require some shopping for setup, but I hope to give this a twirl and report back. The biggest issue I have here is that I don't have the targets or backer cardboard where I typically shoot outdoors... and it's an EASY setup at my favorite indoor range where we are not allowed to draw from concealment and fire. Arrrgh.

So if I don't report back until spring time, that's likely why.

But sounds like fun. I am guessing my biggest enemy will be ME, attempting to shoot "fast" when I should be shooting "WELL."

BCGlocker · November 20, 2015, 03:33 PM

Quote:

BCGlocker, I'm not a serious competitor. I shoot only local matches. If it's over about 75 miles from home, I'm not going. Every draw I have made for years has been concealment. If I shoot a steel challenge match, I draw from concealment. They are always happy to let me. So, drawing without a cover garment would feel strange to me. So just a matter of practice. So really not that impressive, just lots and lots of repetitions.

I train both strong side and conceal draw regularly. The extra motion of getting the garment out of way is about 0.2 to 0.3 seconds for me. This mean it will add at lease 4-6 seconds to the total score. Therefore, you 17.49 score with concealment is considerable accomplishment. Good job.

Slimjim9 · November 21, 2015, 04:41 PM

Modified the drill again today. 7yds with a VTAC target. I think I'm going to stick with this and see if I can track my (hopefully) improvement. This time I tried to focus less on the clock and more on getting good hits. Speed was 38.05s which is slower than the 34.25 last week but much better hits compared against post#11. Going with the VTAC scoring it's only one 0.5s penalty.

MrBorland · November 22, 2015, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slimjim9

Modified the drill again today. 7yds with a VTAC target. I think I'm going to stick with this and see if I can track my (hopefully) improvement. This time I tried to focus less on the clock and more on getting good hits.

Well done, SJ9. I think yours is a good approach. The main thing isn't to compare yourself to others, but to use it as a tool to improve, so modifying it is a good approach if it works for you.

As to speed & accuracy, it's a balance. It's all about shooting within your control, so too many "points down" means your shooting beyond your control. Conversely, a "clean" target likely means you could've gone a bit faster.

With IDPA targets & scoring, "10%" is good rule of thumb, meaning a good balance is when time added from your points down is about 10% of your raw time. If you're consistently over 15 - 20%, it'd be worthwhile to rein it in a bit. Those who shoot IDPA and regularly go over 20% often never seem to get beyond their plateau, and can't figure out why.

couldbeanyone - excellent shooting. Well done!

couldbeanyone · November 22, 2015, 11:20 AM

MrBorland, thanks, you are very kind.

Slimjim9, MrBorland once again gives excellent advice. He has explained the balance of speed very well. You are on the right track, just keep after it. Be aware that if you shoot a steel challenge, accuracy will be at even more of a premium as misses just kill your times and targets at 25 and 35 yards is not at all unusual.

Sevens · November 22, 2015, 12:02 PM

I'll agree that Mr Borland gives a terrific description in that post. A lot to be learned there!

Bartholomew Roberts · November 22, 2015, 06:24 PM

Slimjim9, part of your problem is way you are running the timer makes it hard to get a good time. Surefire makes a free shottimer app for the iPhone. As shottimers go, it is not great; but it is a lot better than your current method.

I've been down that path you are on myself and a dedicated shot timer is a huge help; but the Surefire app will at least make your life easier.

November 8, 2015, 03:44 PM	#2
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	Wish I had seen this before I went to the range yesterday. I'd have given it a try. At 7 yds I might could hit Expert. At 10 yards I'd be happy if I got anything above Novice. For some reason my accuracy really heads downhill past 7 yds. __________________ Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good.

November 9, 2015, 08:49 AM	#4
BCGlocker Member Join Date: May 12, 2015 Location: TX Posts: 29	Slimjim9, just run the test several times and adjust between speed and accuracy. Even grand masters have to do the same. __________________ NRA Life Member IDPA Life Member USPSA Life Member Texas LTC Instructor

November 10, 2015, 10:00 AM	#5
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Wish there was a place around here that allowed doing this drill. Fast shooting and drawing from the holster are generally frowned on. Without going to an actual match, about the only way to practice this stuff is with my trusty airguns. Guess I'll have to give it a try that way. Kind of cheating, though, even with a blowback pistol that recoils about the same as a .22. Oh well. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 10, 2015, 10:28 PM	#6
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	Good point. I wouldn't have been able to draw from the holster. I can't shoot follow up shots anywhere near that fast anyway. I'm still gonna try to simulate it next time I get to the range __________________ Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good.

November 12, 2015, 08:24 PM	#8
BCGlocker Member Join Date: May 12, 2015 Location: TX Posts: 29	Mr. Borland, that is very impressive. Good shooting. __________________ NRA Life Member IDPA Life Member USPSA Life Member Texas LTC Instructor

November 8, 2015, 01:19 PM	#1
BCGlocker Member Join Date: May 12, 2015 Location: TX Posts: 29	Anyone tried Bill Wilson's 5X5 Skill Test? Post your time here I watched several videos about this test, it seemed so easy and everyone is either a master or a grandmaster. Well, it is not that easy. I shot in 21 second plus 2 second penalties. I shot an expert with a Glock 21. I will try to shoot it again with G17 to see if I can be a bit faster. Please post your results here. Info on the test is at http://wilsoncombat.com/new/5x5-drill.asp Target: One standard IDPA, 10 yards downrange Scoring: IDPA Limited Vickers, 25 shots total 1. Count 25 shots on target (24 in the body and 1 in the head). 2. Add .50 seconds for each hit in the “-1” area. 3. Add 1.5 seconds for each hit in the “-3” area. 4. Add 2.5 seconds for each hit off target (and SLAP yourself). Start Position: Hands at your sides facing target. No concealment garment necessary. Procedure: String 1: Draw and fire 5 shots freestyle (two hands) String 2: Draw and fire 5 shots strong hand only String 3: Draw and fire 5 shots freestyle (two hands), reload from slidelock and fire 5 more shots freestyle String 4: Draw and fire 4 shots to the body and 1 shot to the head freestyle Skill ranking (Bill Wilson’s Opinion) Grand Master: 15 seconds or less Master: 20 seconds or less Expert: 25 seconds or less Sharpshooter: 32 seconds or less Marksman: 41 seconds or less Novice: 50 seconds or less Not proficient enough to carry a handgun: Over 50 seconds __________________ NRA Life Member IDPA Life Member USPSA Life Member Texas LTC Instructor

November 12, 2015, 07:52 PM	#7
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	These are pretty standard IDPA drills (and IDPA scoring) on IDPA targets. I've been an active IDPA competitor for a while, and I've done them often enough (with a revolver) to know what I can typically do on each - so my raw time would normally be in the 14 - 16 second range. My Points Down (PDs) are typically in the 5 - 10% (of my raw time) range, so I'm pretty confident I'd fall in the 15.4 - 17.6 range. With a speedloader-fed revolver. With a semi-auto, my reload is about a second to a second and a half quicker, and each draw-to-1st shot would be about 0.2 quicker (0.8 total), so I'm fairly sure I'd be looking at 16 or better with a semi-auto.

November 12, 2015, 08:33 PM	#9
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	LOL!! Glad I investigated this thread. I thought it was going to be about A.A. Very nice shooting. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

November 14, 2015, 01:58 PM	#10
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	Well, that was an eye opener and not in a good way. I had to run a highly modified test. I did it from 7yds instead of ten, started each string from the low ready not drawing, and my timer was the stopwatch on my iPhone sitting on the shelf. I had to start the timer with my left finger, shoot the string, then stop the timer. I'm sure this added some "unfair" time to the test. Also I didn't have an IDPA target. I ran the test twice. First of all with my EDC LCR357 meaning the reload was from a speed strip. Time was, dare I write this down, 51.91, probably 10 or more was the reload. The accuracy penalties I'm not sure how to measure because of the target difference, but however you look at, it's not good. One off target and the head shot barely grazed the neck. __________________ Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good.

November 14, 2015, 02:06 PM	#11
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	I reran the test with my Glock 19 and did better. Time was 34.25 with marginally better accuracy though still much room for improvement. I guess I know what I'm going to be doing with my range sessions from now on. __________________ Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good.

November 14, 2015, 04:59 PM	#12
BCGlocker Member Join Date: May 12, 2015 Location: TX Posts: 29	Yeah, it is not as easy as it seemed. I have great respect for all the shooters shot in low teens. These people have skills. __________________ NRA Life Member IDPA Life Member USPSA Life Member Texas LTC Instructor

November 14, 2015, 07:29 PM	#13
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	IMO, 34 sec with a G19 is very respectable for someone who hasn't tried this type of shooting before. Kudos. If nothing else, these drills are good to simply show that basic CCW skills such as drawing, shooting and reloading efficiently are deceptively difficult and take a lot of practice.

November 14, 2015, 08:14 PM	#14
couldbeanyone Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 139	Well, gave it a try today. Shot all four strings consecutively, no do overs. All draws were from concealment, ( that is how i always draw even in a match), with my Glock 19. Total time was a 15.99, add 1.5 seconds for the three shots outside the "A" zone, and you get a total of 17.49. Funny, I don't feel like a master.

November 14, 2015, 09:53 PM	#15
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	Look like one to me. __________________ Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good.

November 20, 2015, 08:51 AM	#16
BCGlocker Member Join Date: May 12, 2015 Location: TX Posts: 29	couldbeanyone, that is some great shooting from concealment. I just shot the drill with my G17 last night. I had a raw time of 14.58 second and 4.5 seconds penalty make a total of 19.08. As a side note, my stock G21 and G17 have a factory 5.5 trigger, my splits range from 0.25 to 0.32 on G17. I know I can shoot the Bill Drill with .15 splits using my custom 1911 with 2.5 lb trigger. I did not shoot it from concealment as Bill indicated it is not necessary. I certainly admire and envy of those great shooters can make Master or Grandmaster time shooting from concealment. I am humbled. __________________ NRA Life Member IDPA Life Member USPSA Life Member Texas LTC Instructor

November 20, 2015, 10:35 AM	#17
couldbeanyone Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 139	BCGlocker, I'm not a serious competitor. I shoot only local matches. If it's over about 75 miles from home, I'm not going. Every draw I have made for years has been concealment. If I shoot a steel challenge match, I draw from concealment. They are always happy to let me. So, drawing without a cover garment would feel strange to me. So just a matter of practice. So really not that impressive, just lots and lots of repetitions.

November 20, 2015, 12:31 PM	#18
1-DAB Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2010 Location: Santa Fe, NM Posts: 474	i have the course of fire printed out in my 'range book' for my next trip. i'll give it a try. as for drawing from concealment, excellent idea. practice/compete the way you carry if you can. when an IDPA stage says concealment is optional, i keep my vest/jacket on. if i want a further challenge, i try for head shots over body shots, smaller target, more of a challenge. i miss sometimes, but not always.

November 20, 2015, 02:17 PM	#19
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	This sounds like a fun thing to try. I would expect that my very first try will land somewhere in the middle... but I have no idea. I also expect (or demand of myself! ) that my score would improve if I keep running the drill. It will require some shopping for setup, but I hope to give this a twirl and report back. The biggest issue I have here is that I don't have the targets or backer cardboard where I typically shoot outdoors... and it's an EASY setup at my favorite indoor range where we are not allowed to draw from concealment and fire. Arrrgh. So if I don't report back until spring time, that's likely why. But sounds like fun. I am guessing my biggest enemy will be ME, attempting to shoot "fast" when I should be shooting "WELL." __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 21, 2015, 04:41 PM	#21
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	Modified the drill again today. 7yds with a VTAC target. I think I'm going to stick with this and see if I can track my (hopefully) improvement. This time I tried to focus less on the clock and more on getting good hits. Speed was 38.05s which is slower than the 34.25 last week but much better hits compared against post#11. Going with the VTAC scoring it's only one 0.5s penalty. __________________ Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good.

November 22, 2015, 11:20 AM	#23
couldbeanyone Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 139	MrBorland, thanks, you are very kind. Slimjim9, MrBorland once again gives excellent advice. He has explained the balance of speed very well. You are on the right track, just keep after it. Be aware that if you shoot a steel challenge, accuracy will be at even more of a premium as misses just kill your times and targets at 25 and 35 yards is not at all unusual.

November 22, 2015, 12:02 PM	#24
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I'll agree that Mr Borland gives a terrific description in that post. A lot to be learned there! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 22, 2015, 06:24 PM	#25
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Slimjim9, part of your problem is way you are running the timer makes it hard to get a good time. Surefire makes a free shottimer app for the iPhone. As shottimers go, it is not great; but it is a lot better than your current method. I've been down that path you are on myself and a dedicated shot timer is a huge help; but the Surefire app will at least make your life easier.