The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

View Poll Results: What say you?
M16/20" 34 39.08%
M4/14.5" 53 60.92%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 4, 2007, 12:12 AM   #51
Neal in GA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2002
Location: Georgia
Posts: 172
I'm an 11 bang bang with only about 2.5 yrs in service. Was at Benning when I was active, and I'm NG now (was med boarded out of active). I used the M16A4 when I was active duty and have used both the M16 and the M4 in the Guard. Of the two, as a regular infantry soldier, I'd prefer the M4 for Iraq or the M16 for Afghanistan. That said, I'm going to SDM school in a few months, and our next deployment will be Afghanistan. I'm hoping for an M14 (during the deployment - I know SDM school uses M16A4s with ACOGs).
Neal in GA is offline  
Old November 5, 2007, 12:19 AM   #52
KShaft
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2001
Location: none of your business batf!
Posts: 130
Those of us in country have a name for the a4. Musket.

Our building was used as a distribution point for RFI and new M4's that came in. Funny we didnt get any of the M4's even though they used our building. Big huge boxes full of M4's for the brigade. Let me tell you this, every 11 bang bang has an M4. Most everyone else who was directly organic to the brigade and even many that werent recieved M4's. The reason we didnt get to many is because we were a separates unit, which means you get ****ed on many different fronts, even though we drive the brigade. We did recieve some of thier hand down a4's and M4's. Felt like I was back in the Corps. Definately wish I was. Most CONUS units almost everyone has an M4 with gadgets included. Id say the army is most definately exclusively going to the M4. While groups like CAG, AWG, and SF are going to the HK416.

Actually going out on HVT TST missions (not many but some) in Baghdad, an m16 is totally a hinderance. Shots at 300 M? are you kidding me? More like 25 to 50. I was the 240 gunner on our truck and trying to use the dual weapon method was very difficult with being inside the turret(duh), having all the rediculous amount of body armor you have on aspecially with the side sapi plates and water wings. Your often in in enclosed spaces in this type of enviroment and the m16 is anything but optimal. The M4 is lighter, handier and quicker, and just as accurate for all ranges typically used in our environment. Handier in that also it having an adjustable stock since we are wearing body armor we can bring the weapon in closer and have better control, and the shorter barrel increases swing speed as well for those CQB engagements that are the most common. For anything past the 300M range, go find your former Marines or perhaps a DM, or oh wait thats right youve got 240s and 50cals that Im pretty sure can shoot past 300M (try 5 times that... for a 240). Hardly any one has died from a SAF attack in months anyway (at least in western Baghdad).

As for the m14 comment, I love em, own a SOCOM II that I bought while on r&r. It feels like a "real" rifle. In this environment way to slow. Yeah you hit somebody they stay down, but the M4's are so much faster, I can get on target way faster, get 3 shots off in a CQB environment for one of the SOCOM, and walk the shots in if hes moving laterally or away, not even an option with the SOCOM.
For a DMR however, I like it, but there are a lot of AR .308 platforms out there from of course from Armalite and Knights, DPMS, Fulton, Rock River that would be able to fulfill that role as a DMR if you wanted the more powerful caliber. Its not cheap to accurize an M14 as Im finding out looking into it for my SOCOM. Bout the same price to buy the rifles listed above (save the knights) and no waiting on the custom bedding and barrel fitting etc...
Redeployment T-9 days!
SGT S
KShaft is offline  
Old November 6, 2007, 05:29 PM   #53
Army GI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2006
Posts: 284
hmm, something's missing..
Army GI is offline  
Old November 6, 2007, 06:12 PM   #54
davlandrum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Lane County Oregon
Posts: 2,547
Neal - You can be medically boarded off active duty but still be in a Guard unit that will deploy??????

Man, that just seems incredibly stupid. I have no experience with the Guard, spent 20 on AD, but wouldn't it make sense if "deployable" was the same for both?

Learn something new everyday.
__________________
U.S Army, Retired

Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do. -Potter Stewart
davlandrum is offline  
Old November 6, 2007, 07:31 PM   #55
G-Cym
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2006
Posts: 366
The rules haven't quite caught up with the new operational norm. The Guard is still considered a reserve, primarily stateside force, and the rules are written according to that. Of course we know that since the Iraq war started, Guard units get deployed just as much as AD units, and those deployments are exactly the same as their AD counterpart deployments.
G-Cym is offline  
Old November 6, 2007, 09:10 PM   #56
armedtotheteeth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2005
Location: podunk, Texas
Posts: 1,610
I though t you guys would get a kick out of this
Attached Images
File Type: jpg miss america.jpg (60.6 KB, 97 views)
armedtotheteeth is offline  
Old November 6, 2007, 09:14 PM   #57
DonR101395
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: NWFL
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
I though t you guys would get a kick out of this
The caption is wrong, but I'd vote for her. She actually an H-60 gunner.
DonR101395 is offline  
Old November 6, 2007, 09:17 PM   #58
armedtotheteeth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2005
Location: podunk, Texas
Posts: 1,610
Yeah < i didnt think that was a AC130, but makes a nice pic. i like the feed tray stoppages thing my self
armedtotheteeth is offline  
Old November 6, 2007, 11:59 PM   #59
hormiga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2007
Location: GWOT Afghanistan
Posts: 12
Seems my reply was a victum of the server burp

Anyway I prefer the m-4, main reason is the stock is a helluva lot easier to deal with while in body armor.
hormiga is offline  
Old November 7, 2007, 10:44 AM   #60
Army GI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2006
Posts: 284
The 20" is definately obsolete as a standard issue rifle.

Someone here said it best that most engagements don't take place over 300 yards and usually at 150yards or less. The M1 Garand was way too powerful for modern infantry combat and the M16s ability to reach out to 500 yards is unnecessary. The M4 is perfect for 300 yards and below. Anything else can be taken with indirect fire or SDMs.
Army GI is offline  
Old November 7, 2007, 08:25 PM   #61
Army GI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2006
Posts: 284
I guess this would be pertinent information too:

Quote:
The M4 Carbine is the Army's primary individual combat rifle for Infantry, Ranger, and Special Operations forces. Since its introduction in 1991, the M4 carbine has proven its worth on the battlefield because it is accurate, easy to shoot and maintain. The M4's collapsible stock and shortened barrel make it ideal for Soldiers operating in vehicles or within the confines associated with urban terrain. The M4 has been improved numerous times and employs the most current technology available on any rifle/carbine in general use today.

The M4 is the highest-rated weapon by Soldiers in combat, according to the Directorate of Combat Development, Ft. Benning, Ga. In December 2006, the Center for Naval Analysis conducted a "Soldiers' Perspective on Small Arms in Combat" survey. Their poll of over 2,600 Soldiers reported overwhelming satisfaction with the M4. The survey included serviceability and usefulness in completing assigned missions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Similar to its programs ensuring the best body armor, armored tactical-wheeled vehicles, and force protection equipment for its fighting force, the Army continues to improve its capabilities to ensure our Soldiers are protected and best able to continue to execute any assigned mission. The U.S. Army Infantry Center is conducting a study to refine the Army's Small Arms Strategy, which focuses on the employment of rifles, carbines, ammunition caliber, and future technologies. All Services are participating in this study, which is expected in the July/August 2007 timeframe.

The Army has approximately 225,000 M4/M4A1 carbines in the inventory, with more procurement programmed.

- 30 -
For additional information, the media may contact Lt. Col. William Wiggins, [email protected], Office of the Chief Army Public Affairs, 703-697-7591.
http://www.army.mil/-newsreleases/20...pon-of-choice/
Army GI is offline  
Old November 7, 2007, 10:30 PM   #62
Neal in GA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2002
Location: Georgia
Posts: 172
Quote:
Neal - You can be medically boarded off active duty but still be in a Guard unit that will deploy??????

Man, that just seems incredibly stupid. I have no experience with the Guard, spent 20 on AD, but wouldn't it make sense if "deployable" was the same for both?

Learn something new everyday.
Yes, Davlandrum, I was as surprised as you when I found out it was possible. I'm on 20% for my knees, but I was able to get waivers (took about 6 months), pass a physical, and come back into the NG. I have a permanent no-run profile, but I have no other limitations (do a 2.5 mile fast walk for the PT test). I wear knee braces for road marches and the like, and I do well. It hurts like hell, but infantry is supposed to hurt. Marching up and down the mountains of Germany with 80 lbs of gear moving to and from OPs, my knees held up fine. Technically, I could go back into the regular army, but I would have to give up my disability for the rest of my life in order to do so. And yes, I'm deployable. Doesn't make sense to me, but I'll take it.
Neal in GA is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 12:25 AM   #63
hormiga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2007
Location: GWOT Afghanistan
Posts: 12
Neal in GA
Quote:
Yes, Davlandrum, I was as surprised as you when I found out it was possible. I'm on 20% for my knees, but I was able to get waivers (took about 6 months), pass a physical, and come back into the NG. I have a permanent no-run profile, but I have no other limitations (do a 2.5 mile fast walk for the PT test). I wear knee braces for road marches and the like, and I do well. It hurts like hell, but infantry is supposed to hurt. Marching up and down the mountains of Germany with 80 lbs of gear moving to and from OPs, my knees held up fine. Technically, I could go back into the regular army, but I would have to give up my disability for the rest of my life in order to do so. And yes, I'm deployable. Doesn't make sense to me, but I'll take it.
Not to thread jack or offend, but I am really surprised they kept you as 11bravo. I am a Navy officer (TDY to an Army unit oddly enough) going through an interservice transfer into the Army. I wanted Infantry but got Artillery (13A)... I was told it is hard to get infantry. I figured it was because of the higher "hooah" factor or something, so I just assumed that all 11's had to be awesome runners and PT studs... not saying you aren't a PT stud or anything, just didn't figure you could have a perm. profile with out changing MOS, Anyway stay safe man. (So they make you speed walk an extra half mile for the PFT? It is normally 2mi right? That is all kinds of messed up)

Back on topic: I dont know if you decided or not yet Army GI but if you can, buy an AR-15 with the M-4 stock (my humble opinion) regardles of barrel length. Also Army GI what is your MOS if you don't mind me asking.
hormiga is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 01:38 AM   #64
Neal in GA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2002
Location: Georgia
Posts: 172
Yeah, they let me come back 11B. The screwy thing is the alternate events for the run on the PT test are pass/fail, so the max I can possibly score on the AFPT is 260 I thought they'd make me reclass too, and I was thinking about going MI (have the scores for it), but I came back into the Guard in January 06 as infantry. Maybe they were hard up for infantry. Who knows. /shrug
Neal in GA is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 02:30 AM   #65
HorseSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: OCONUS 61°13′06″N 149°53′57″W
Posts: 2,282
Quote:
I was told it is hard to get infantry.
Officer versus enlisted and Regular Army versus National Guard can make for some very different situations in terms of recruiting and retention.
HorseSoldier is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 03:10 AM   #66
hormiga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2007
Location: GWOT Afghanistan
Posts: 12
Quote:
Officer versus enlisted and Regular Army versus National Guard can make for some very different situations in terms of recruiting and retention.
Makes sense I suppose. Oddly enough I score 286 in the 17-21 range on the APFT (296 in my age cat.) which is not even a part of the transfer package. (Not a fast enough runner to max the damn thing... Doesn't the Army hand out boyscout badges for score over 280 or something?)

Well arty isn't bad, from what I hear they are doing infantry jobs anyway in many areas. As an officer I'll probably end up in the rear with the gear watching all the action on CNN anyway.
hormiga is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 08:17 AM   #67
Army GI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2006
Posts: 284
Hormiga,

My MOS is 68W "health care specialist", otherwise known as combat medic.

Last edited by Army GI; November 8, 2007 at 11:26 PM.
Army GI is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 11:54 AM   #68
Neal in GA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2002
Location: Georgia
Posts: 172
It's 290+ to get the Physical Fitness Excellence badge to go on your APFT uniform. Standards are the same for ARNG and regular Army for initial enlistment.
Neal in GA is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 01:44 PM   #69
HorseSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: OCONUS 61°13′06″N 149°53′57″W
Posts: 2,282
Quote:
Well arty isn't bad, from what I hear they are doing infantry jobs anyway in many areas.
And it's all the same line for officers reporting for Special Forces Assessment and Selection, infantry, artillery or whatever else
HorseSoldier is offline  
Old November 8, 2007, 11:26 PM   #70
Army GI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2006
Posts: 284
By the way, Hormiga, I've decided to go with an AR15 in an M4 configuration. I'm going to get an M4 stock and a carbine upper from CMMG. What do you think, good choice
Army GI is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 12:41 AM   #71
hormiga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2007
Location: GWOT Afghanistan
Posts: 12
Quote:
By the way, Hormiga, I've decided to go with an AR15 in an M4 configuration. I'm going to get an M4 stock and a carbine upper from CMMG. What do you think, good choice
You can't go wrong with an M-4, that is my opinion and seems most agree here.

Until about a month ago I had only ever handled M-16s. There is just something about that M-4 stock and design that makes you go from feeling like a rank&file soldier with a 16 to feeling like Chuck Norris in Delta Force. Strap a M-203 on it and you're going to feel like a freakin' steely-eyed death-dealing machine.

Seriously though, it is a nice little stock and a nice little carbine, the only downside is you can't butt stroke people. Shouldn't be a problem though because you will be able to shoot the booger-eaters at a closer range and quicker.

Combat medic, a good choice. I recently learned that the first step of combat medicine is to "kill the motherf$%^er that injured your battle buddy and then stuff his wound with tampons". Sounds good to me.

Quote:
And it's all the same line for officers reporting for Special Forces Assessment and Selection, infantry, artillery or whatever else
I am hoping for a chance at Ranger school. SF wold be awesome, but I will be past the rank cut off I think, anyway I have to take baby steps and get out of the Navy and into the Army (huge amounts of paper work/redtape).
hormiga is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 01:17 AM   #72
Army GI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2006
Posts: 284
The M16 is over long for what it was intended for. It should have been designed like the M4 all along, but the old salts demanded the longer barrel and stock. It makes no sense when you consider that the AR10 had a 20" barrel. That's like shooting 9mm out of a 7.5" revolver.

I was considering going Navy; my JROTC unit was Navy. Though I ended up going Army for family tradition. I'm doing Army ROTC right now, and I hear lots of horror stories about being a butterbar
Army GI is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 05:48 PM   #73
famous2146
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2007
Location: La Mirada CA
Posts: 1
I hate the M4

Im currently serving in the marine corps and i have been to iraq 2 times the first time over i had the m16A2 and i loved it the second time around i had the M4 boy i hated the dam thing i complained so much, i actually had it exchanged for the old a2. Bottom line is for those who actually fired the A4 and the M16 in a combat zone where your life or some one else is life depended on it you know that by far the m16 was more acurate and more reliable than the a4.
famous2146 is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 05:53 PM   #74
Pat Rogers
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Help me out here.
"I am currently serving in the marine corps (sic)"???

A strange way to put that.

A Marine (note the capitol "M") would state- "I am a Marine serving in Iraq".

He would not use "marine corps" in lower case.

So are you a Sailor serving with the Marines? A Soldier serving with the Marines?

Or, have you just forgotten everything you have ever learned to show your hindquarters on a gun forum?
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old November 9, 2007, 07:14 PM   #75
G-Cym
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2006
Posts: 366
Or maybe he isn't that good at English.

Strange you would question someone's service because of the lack of capitalization in a sentence.
G-Cym is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08135 seconds with 10 queries