FN 5.7 vs. Glock 17 - Page 2

carguychris · September 18, 2017, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

So that got me to wondering if you could get a 9mm pistol to act like that?

Have you heard of the Armscor .22 TCM 9R Glock 17 conversion kit?

.22 TCM 9R is apparently a version of .22 TCM with a slightly shorter OAL to feed out of Glock 9mm magazines.

(I'm not going to get into the generalized 9mm vs. .22 effectiveness question.)

HighValleyRanch · September 18, 2017, 01:17 PM

Quote:

I think the title of the post might be why people are a bit off topic

Maybe, but that's only if people read the title only and jump to the conclusions. I was very clear in my opening statement that this was a hypothetical question and did not want it to get to an debate about caliber or why.

My main question was:
could you get the same low recoil effect with a comprable load?

reynolds357 · September 18, 2017, 03:23 PM

To answer that, the effects of the 5.7 are essential to the discussion. You have to know what it can do to know if you can match it.

Danoobie · September 18, 2017, 05:05 PM

"could you get the same recoil effect with a comparable load?"

What you are trying to do is take a round with heavier recoil,
than the 5.7x28mm (9mm)
and use a higher pressure round, 9mm +P, and somehow expect
lower recoil than the standard 9mm round? I shoot the
5.7, and a few full-size 9mm pistols, and I'm going to say no.

HighValleyRanch · September 18, 2017, 05:08 PM

Quote:

To answer that, the effects of the 5.7 are essential to the discussion. You have to know what it can do to know if you can match it.

No, for plinking and practice, target, etc. the EFFECTS of the bullet are not the same as the recoil effect. Two different matters. The first being concerned with the results at the target, and the second being the effects of the load on recoil.

Not everything we do in shooting has to be related to actual SD.
I already have that worked out for my personal needs.

HighValleyRanch · September 18, 2017, 05:14 PM

Quote:

What you are trying to do is take a round with heavier recoil,
than the 5.7x28mm (9mm)
and use a higher pressure round, 9mm +P, and somehow expect
lower recoil than the standard 9mm round? I shoot the
5.7, and a few full-size 9mm pistols, and I'm going to say no.

So you are saying that a 50 grain bullet going at example 1600 fps out of a 9mm is going to be very different than a 50 grain bullet going at 1600 fps out of a FN 5.7? I know this is hypothetical, because the example I posted was a 60 grain 9MM, but just trying to keep it the same for theoretical sake.

Up to now, I had never heard of a 60 grain 9mm load, but appartenly since Liberty and Double tap both make a similar load, there must be some reason for them.

Danoobie · September 18, 2017, 05:27 PM

So, bear in mind you are competing with a 40 grain 5.7mm spitzer shaped bullet,
as compared to the 60 grain 9mm FMJ or HP shaped bullet, jacked to +p pressures.

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, but it seems the more you tweak this
thing, the farther from your goal you're going to get.

Is there a benefit, or useful goal, here? Not to saw "why do you need it?",
but even if you did match recoil and velocity, the 9mm is still not going
to perform in a similar manner to the 5.7, due to it's size and shape
disparity. You'll shed velocity quicker, due to sectional density, and overall size
and blunt shape will negate penetration advantage.

TheGunGeek · September 18, 2017, 08:06 PM

American Eagle isn't the defensive round, SS198 is, and there is a big difference.

Keep in mind the 5.7 round was designed to replace the 9mm as a more effective NATO cartridge. In NATO testing, the 5.7 proved to be superior and the winner of the trials. The only reason it wasn't adopted was due to politics, as Germany wanted H&K to win. So between equal form factors, I would choose the Five-seveN over a Glock hands down.

Danoobie · September 18, 2017, 09:19 PM

I like the 9mm round, per se'. It has performed well for over a century, and has proved itself, IMO, a feat of German Engineering. At +P, a 60 grain round might be very
accurate at 50 yards +, for one thing. Maybe a 9mm Glock long slide.

amd6547 · September 19, 2017, 07:25 AM

I think the 7.62x25 Tokarev round offers a better format than either the 5.7 or the 9mm.
In standard ball form, the Tok penetrates things the other standard rounds bounce off, like Kevlar helmets. Imagine if the sold copper round technology was extended to that 30cal Tok case with a hot load.

TheGunGeek · September 19, 2017, 02:41 PM

To the original question 'can you get a 9mm to behave like a 5.7' the simple answer is no, they are very different ammo types. As noted Liberty Civil Defense is the closest you can get. It's a shame there aren't more firearms in the 5.7 format as it's a very nice shooting round.

September 18, 2017, 05:27 PM	#32
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	So, bear in mind you are competing with a 40 grain 5.7mm spitzer shaped bullet, as compared to the 60 grain 9mm FMJ or HP shaped bullet, jacked to +p pressures. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, but it seems the more you tweak this thing, the farther from your goal you're going to get. Is there a benefit, or useful goal, here? Not to saw "why do you need it?", but even if you did match recoil and velocity, the 9mm is still not going to perform in a similar manner to the 5.7, due to it's size and shape disparity. You'll shed velocity quicker, due to sectional density, and overall size and blunt shape will negate penetration advantage. Last edited by Danoobie; September 18, 2017 at 05:36 PM.

September 19, 2017, 07:25 AM	#35
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	I think the 7.62x25 Tokarev round offers a better format than either the 5.7 or the 9mm. In standard ball form, the Tok penetrates things the other standard rounds bounce off, like Kevlar helmets. Imagine if the sold copper round technology was extended to that 30cal Tok case with a hot load. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

September 18, 2017, 03:23 PM	#28
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	To answer that, the effects of the 5.7 are essential to the discussion. You have to know what it can do to know if you can match it.

September 18, 2017, 05:05 PM	#29
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	"could you get the same recoil effect with a comparable load?" What you are trying to do is take a round with heavier recoil, than the 5.7x28mm (9mm) and use a higher pressure round, 9mm +P, and somehow expect lower recoil than the standard 9mm round? I shoot the 5.7, and a few full-size 9mm pistols, and I'm going to say no.

September 18, 2017, 08:06 PM	#33
TheGunGeek Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 182	American Eagle isn't the defensive round, SS198 is, and there is a big difference. Keep in mind the 5.7 round was designed to replace the 9mm as a more effective NATO cartridge. In NATO testing, the 5.7 proved to be superior and the winner of the trials. The only reason it wasn't adopted was due to politics, as Germany wanted H&K to win. So between equal form factors, I would choose the Five-seveN over a Glock hands down.

September 18, 2017, 09:19 PM	#34
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	I like the 9mm round, per se'. It has performed well for over a century, and has proved itself, IMO, a feat of German Engineering. At +P, a 60 grain round might be very accurate at 50 yards +, for one thing. Maybe a 9mm Glock long slide.

September 19, 2017, 02:41 PM	#36
TheGunGeek Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 182	To the original question 'can you get a 9mm to behave like a 5.7' the simple answer is no, they are very different ammo types. As noted Liberty Civil Defense is the closest you can get. It's a shame there aren't more firearms in the 5.7 format as it's a very nice shooting round.