Defund the Police? - Page 3

Metal god · June 12, 2020, 07:21 PM

I turn 50 this year and in that time I've had interaction with police on numerus occasions . When I use the term interaction I mean it to mean where I was involved in why they were called or a wittiness to a crime or other .

1st time I was 14-ish walking to school . I had broke my leg earlier that year so they changed my class schedule around to give me PE 1st period which I did not have to attend . This meant I started school at 2nd period and did not get to school until shortly before 2nd period started .

As I walked to school a cop stopped me about 2 blocks from school and asked why I wasn't in school . I explained why and he seemed ok with that . He was cool and not at all being difficult . He said he needed to take me to school to confirm what I said was true . I thought OK what ever but he then said he would need to search me before putting me in the car because it was procedure to do so . Long story short he did search me and found something I should not legally have in one of my pockets and handcuffed me . He then put in the backseat of the car and drove me to school . All this while he was actually still being very cool about everything . The way he was handling things really effected how I interacted with him , I don't remember what about but we even joked about something a bit .

Anyways this resulted in a suspension from school and mandatory family therapy with my mom . During one of the therapy sessions the Dr read me the police report and I was shocked at what it said . It said I didn't seem to care about the trouble I was in and was just joking around with him .

Well kinda but it was his coolness that put me at ease . If it wasn't for the report I'd say it was one of the best interactions I've had with police , especially when I was in the wrong and having to deal with them . Also in the grand scheme of things I wasn't in big trouble .

2nd time I was 16ish and was out very late doing things I shouldn't at the beach with friends . The cops rolled up took our info and because it wasn't anything truly bad they decided to just take us each home so they could talk with are parents . My mom was asleep on the couch and I tried to lightly wake her up but she's a deep sleeper so the cop asked her name and I told him . He then yield her name to wake her up which scared the crap out of her , she didn't even know I had left the house that night . Even after she was awake the cop refused to stop shining his flashlight directly in her face even after being asked to move the light multiple times . To this day she gets worked up about that and calls him a JA

3rd time ( I'm an adult now ) trained in private security and have testified in court so I might have a better understanding of being a wittiness then maybe your average joe . Not related to the job but I was a wittiness of an assault by one neighbor against another neighbor . I was the one that actually called the cops because it was a man hitting a woman and that's just not cool . To be fare they argued all the time over STUPID stuff but it never got physical until then . I watched most of what happened so I had a good idea what happened . Even though I called and was a eye wittiness the cops never came over to ask me any questions . After about two weeks I called and asked the detective why I had not been interviewed he said that I just need to leave him ( the guy who punched the woman ) alone and hung up . It turns out with out even interviewing the eye wittiness the cops on seen determined the lady was at fault and wrote the report as such . Of course I'm leaving a bunch out but there's no need to go into great detail as to what I saw , the point is the same . What's in the report is all that matters not what really happened .

4th ( there were others but these really stick out ) There's an intersection by my house where there are a lot of accidents , at times very bad ones . Over the years two people have died in separate accidents there . One night I hear a very bad one ( After years of hearing these you can tell which ones are the bad ones ) so I go out to be a looky loo . As I'm there looking around I see a guy sitting on the curb ( by now fire and police are there ) and he did not look well . Eyes Wide open looking very much in shock but nobody paying any attention to him . So I walk over and ask him if he's ok and he just rambles about how bad that was

I ask were you in the car and he said yes . This was a car that overturned and may have flipped more then once .

I found the closest cop/emt which was a cop at the time . He was talking/interviewing someone ( like me just a guy that came out to look ) and I said excuse me but this guy over here is in bad shape but I did not get a response . I said it a second time louder and moving closer which prompted him to turn to me and aggressively tell me to stop interrupting him he was conducting an interview .

I just shook my head because by now in life I've started to have an opinion of the police and it was not good .

All the other EMT's seemed actually busy so I ran home and got a blanket , returned and put it around the guy . I looked him over and it appeared he did not have any visible injuries but was still pretty out of it . It was about this time an EMT walked by and I pointed the guy out to them . I said he was in the car that overturned . There eyes opened up almost as much as the guy I was talking about . They immediately came over and started working on him and he turned out to be the first guy transported to the hospital . I could imagine what that cops report said and how great he came off in it

Ok that's just the most memorable ones . I have a true dislike for the police , to be clear not the individual person in the uniform but my interactions over the years have given me a real lack of confidence in the police as a whole .

That all said and I know it was a lot , defunding the police is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard . LEO actually means something ! They are Law Enforcement Officers , with out them there is no need for laws !!!

The fact people actually think you can have other people going out and dealing with ( sorry) crazy people or drug addict's is naïve at best and down right ignorant at worst . How do these kinder gentler folks get the authority to force citizens to do what they kindly want them to do ??? What if they don't want your kinder help and would rather stay on the street shooting up and or keep screaming at people about the spaceman coming to get them ?? Now what , remember we can't have police come that might trigger them even more hurting there feelings . We are a nation of laws and until there are none we will always need LEO's

The issue is training pure and simple along with a real threat of going to jail if you do something wrong as a cop . Stopping the wrong person or breaking down the wrong door MUST STOP . They are in a position of great power and can't be aloud to get those things wrong . I've always disliked the word "shield" because that's what it is . It's a shield preventing accountability and don't get me started on unions . This is such a complex and HUGE problem that it will not be solved by outlawing the choke hold , defunding the police , having kinder people dealing with none violent crimes etc . This is going to take real leadership with deep thinkers giving advice . Unfortunately we don't have any true leaders right now in this country and they all seem to be working from very shallow thoughts .

Oh and those pointing out statistics as if they were gospel . Give me a break , correct me if I'm wrong but didn't all the cops in the Rodney King beating get off and were found not guilty ? So that's just one of what I'm sure are hundreds of police reports written every year saying what they did was justified . The police reports rule all and even the King video didn't help . Do you think for a second if there was no video of Floyds death . The police report would have said he resisted arrest and his death was not related to the arrest ? He would have been just another statistic that never happened .

ABSINCE OF EVIDANCE IS NOT EVIDANCE OF ABSINCE

TXAZ · June 12, 2020, 11:15 PM

This is going to be interesting to watch:
Which politicians make rational decisions.
Which groups have legitimate claims.
Which individuals are of significant concern.

This too shall pass, but in times of stress, we see what people are really made of, and that information is most important.

We’ll see.

Hal · June 13, 2020, 06:16 AM

So - after two pages & 52 posts - it's still a mystery of what "defunding" means & how it's going to be implemented & most importantly - how it will impact those of us that choose to go into the world armed for our own protection and the protection of those members of our families?
I had hoped that's what this thread would have addressed - not how the police treat us.....

Again - exactly what is "defunding" and how will that impact us average Joe Sixpacks?

RETG · June 13, 2020, 07:35 AM

It will most likely remain a mystery for many years. As polls come out, many change their views on defunding.

As for how sill it affect the average person? That depends on where you live. If you live in a large city in certain states like MN, MI, CA, WA, NY, NJ just to name a few it could affect you but it will take time to determine what the effect will be.

However, for people, like me, who live in the middle of nowhere, there will be very little since we have no plans on defunding our Sheriff or State Police; or at least never seen anything on that subject.

Metal god · June 13, 2020, 11:06 AM

There is no meaning . At least not one many would agree with . It depends on who you ask as to what it means . It truey means everything from completely abolishing the police to slightly lowering there budget and allocating those funds for other things .

It’s just a catch phrase for shollow thinkers to use and does not have deep meaning . I’ll tell you what many of the mods here say when discussing new legislation that has not been written yet . I’m paraphrasing here, until we see the text of the bill it’s a waste of time to speculate and debate what it means and how it will affect us .

It means lawlessness in many areas . Just look at the situation in Seattle where several citizens have taken over areas of the city creating their own laws . Nobody’s pointed out exactly how it will affect you/us because it can affect us in so many ways it would take three pages of examples to explain how It can effect you . Generally that’s why the mods don’t let these types of threads go on . The hypotheticals you could come up with are endless . I don’t agree with not allowing the discussions to happen . I think they’re helpful for other people that may not have thought of certain things . To hear or read multiple perspectives can really help form a better opinion on how you may feel about something .

**44 AMP** · June 13, 2020, 12:36 PM

While it is fairly certain that, if someone is doing a bad job, giving them more money will get you more of a bad job, it is far from certain that giving them less money will get you less of a bad job.

Defunding the police clearly means giving them less money, but the details of what that means differs with each different group you talk to.

You can't pay them less, unless you renegotiate their contract. and, to do that both sides have to agree. Good Luck with that!

So, what's left? Reduce, or eliminate their money for equipment and training??

I don't see that having any positive result.

Metal god · June 13, 2020, 12:51 PM

Quote:

So, what's left? Reduce, or eliminate their money for equipment and training??

As silly as that sounds lets explore that some . What about disarming the police and having dedicated special units for high risk interactions . I get it , no weapons appear to have been used in Floyds death but if the general police were unarmed that would need a whole different type of training and ROE . Now this is at it's infancy for me here so I don't have any real answers or ideas but what if ? can it be done responsibly ?

Sharkbite · June 13, 2020, 02:59 PM

Quote:

What about disarming the police and having dedicated special units for high risk interactions

And exactly HOW do these unarmed Police deal with all the armed criminals they encounter? Cops encounter guns on the streets all the time. When i was a patrol Deputy i found an illegal gun at least once a week. Drugs, Guns and Cash are the 3 main food groups of the criminal element.

So, if i had been “unarmed” how would i protect myself from the gun toting gang member i just stopped for rolling a stop sign? Before the North Hollywood BofA shootout. Patrol rifles were almost unheard of. Then the “Active shooter” response training started and it became apparent that pistols were not enough. So, patrol cars got Patrol rifles. All in response to the increasing commonality of heavily armed criminals. The increase in hard drugs being imported from other countries only added to the change.

We are not in Mayberry anymore... Barney Fief isnt cutting it anymore. If you want to “disarm” Police, start by disarming criminals first.

Metal god · June 13, 2020, 03:45 PM

Quote:

And exactly HOW do these unarmed Police deal with all the armed criminals they encounter? Cops encounter guns on the streets all the time. When i was a patrol Deputy i found an illegal gun at least once a week. Drugs, Guns and Cash are the 3 main food groups of the criminal element.

Sounds like we need less guns in this country lol , never ask a question you won't like the answer to haha .

There are counties that have unarmed police and there's generally not blood in the streets every day . Remember this is not a thought experiment that keeps everything the same and still fixes the problem . If you need the police to be less violent then you need a less violent society , how do we get there . I wasn't making a joke about needing real leaders with deep thinkers abound them . This will not be an easy fix and will take some flexibility by all I'm sure .

Maybe you do need two different levels of police which would likely cost double the amount of money to make happen . One group that is the unarmed kinder gentler ones and the other is the group that comes in and drops the hammer down when you take advantage of the kinder gentler group .

Again this is not on the police alone to figure out . Society as a whole would need to change to except this new way of policing to include neighborhoods policing them selves Something I'm sure it was like once a few hundred years ago . Maybe we have to take several steps back to move forward I don't know I'm just thinking out loud here . Something we all should do with out fear of shaming ( not saying anyone has done that here ) just making a point .

HiBC · June 13, 2020, 03:53 PM

We are discussing checkers when the game is chess.

Who stands to gain by the elimination of police as we know them,and replacing them with what???
Given the enclave in Seattle ,perhaps Sharia and the Taliban could be studied as a model.

At least consider how China is "social engineering" using 5 G tech.

Perhaps the Computer Models that unfailingly predict COVID and Climate , utilizing every keystroke and phone conversation you have ever made , could be used by the "Right People" Place these tools in the hands of appointed social workers,,and they will be able to predict your anti social behavior,before you even think of it,and pre emptively arrest you before you commit a crime. Or just disintegrate you with a drone strike.

All for the Greater Good,of course. If it only saves one li'fe....

Or maybe the "Helter Skelter" plan was ahead of its time....But who is playing the role of Charlie Manson?

Sorry. We do live in interesting times. "Be careful what you wish for" seems sage advice.

Metal god · June 13, 2020, 04:02 PM

Quote:

"Be careful what you wish for" seems sage advice.

My thought exactly . There was a council member somewhere tweeting burn it down and some such but when they got to there gated community they freaked out and wanted the cops and told the protesters to go back to there own neighborhoods . The irony was unbelievable .

Onward Allusion · June 14, 2020, 10:04 AM

If it weren't for all the surveillance cameras and smartphones all of these violations by the police would be filed under justified shooting. To the folks who don't believe that there is a problem, all I gotta say is that you are dead wrong and are living in the past. A lot of old guys do not get it. Defunding isn't elimination. Only a moron would believe this.

This thread will not go anywhere and will only cause additional division among gun owners. I now agree with most of the moderators who simply close non-firearms related posts. There are many other venues to get one's blood pressure up.

DaleA · June 14, 2020, 11:03 AM

I'll play.
Disclaimer: I don't actually KNOW this is what the defunders have in mind this is just my best guess and it's just an opinion.

If a guy is being robbed or a store is being broken into or a car is being stolen right at the time of the call to 911 then the "regular" police get sent.

If a guy has been robbed or a store has been broken into or a car has been stolen then you send in the report writers to write up a report and the grief counselors to aid the traumatized victim. The regular police don't show up.

If there is a "disturbance" (this gets tricky) the "hug patrol" and the "designated disturbance de-escalators" are immediately dispatched armed with an MP3 player loaded with Kumbaya to resolve the issue to the satisfaction of all involved. As one radio commentator snidely opined after a couple of these peace patrollers get blown away maybe the regular cops will be dispatched right behind them to cover their efforts.

Just to be fair...you know armed cops might just not be needed at some things they routinely get dispatched for, that part just might work. And the armed cops might actually be relieved not to have to be the front line guys dealing with "disturbances". It's possible they would be quite happy to hang back and let the "mental health" professionals take the lead on these.

Snarky comment to follow: As for traffic stops, drug deals, civil disobedience, well, I think there are some in my neck of the woods (Twin Cities MN) that would just let these "minor" things slide.

Just my opinions on the current situation and I hope everyone gives them the attention they deserve.

JN01 · June 14, 2020, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onward Allusion

If it weren't for all the surveillance cameras and smartphones all of these violations by the police would be filed under justified shooting. To the folks who don't believe that there is a problem, all I gotta say is that you are dead wrong and are living in the past. A lot of old guys do not get it. Defunding isn't elimination. Only a moron would believe this.

On the other hand, you have justified shootings that continue to be characterized as murders (i.e. Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown) by the other side.

Obviously, there is an issue with some cops not being held accountable in some instances. Suggesting that all cops, at all times, everywhere are a problem is wrong.

There have been elected officials and organizational leaders around the country that have, in fact, suggested eliminating police departments (I would agree that they are morons). Even if it only refers to reducing budgets, how exactly is this going to prevent rogue cops from doing what they do?

Thinking that diverting money to social workers is going to be an effective means of dealing with crime is very naive. Most drug addicts don't want to give up their habit. Thugs who care about nothing but themselves and enthusiastically prey upon others are not going to be swayed by some counselor.

What is needed is a FAIR process of evaluating use of force incidents and citizen complaints that takes into account the totality of the circumstances (much as we as armed citizens hope that our use of force will be viewed), and drops the hammer on those who step outside the lines of what is acceptable.

Mainah · June 15, 2020, 08:05 AM

Quote:

If you want to “disarm” Police, start by disarming criminals first.

I don't think the plan is to start with criminals.

HiBC · June 15, 2020, 10:28 AM

There is something I'm not clear on. I believe I have heard it reported both ways.

Did the Minneapolis City Council vote to defund the police dept or disband the police dept??

The words "Disband" and "Defund" have different meanings.

TomNJVA · June 15, 2020, 11:33 AM

It seems to me that those who want to defund the police lack a broad perspective.

Humans are an incredibly loving, empathetic, and charitable species, but due to their intense emotions they are also laced with streaks of anger, hatred, jealously, greed, and senseless violence that are not shared by most other species. A certain percentage of humans have problems controlling these emotions, and so for humans to live together in some acceptable level of harmony there must be rules that restrict negative behavior. Such rules are meaningless without enforcement, thus necessitating a system that captures the rule breakers, judges their degree of guilt, punishes bad behavior, and attempts reform.

Our police are the ones responsible for the capture, and they turn the offenders over to the judicial system for processing. They are a critical link in the chain, and weakening that link weakens the entire chain and with it any chance at peace and harmony.

To keep the law enforcement link strong, the emphasis should be on better training and more non-lethal tools, and that requires more funding, not less. While I can understand a police officer’s hand being fast to his weapon when working in neighborhoods with high levels of violent crime and hatred for police, lethal force must be avoided and reserved as a last resort. That takes a lot of training. While difficult to judge, officers who clearly ignore that concept, although a small minority, need to be identified and weeded out, by either retraining or removal.

Of course the root cause of lawlessness lies beneath, in what causes people to break the rules in the first place such as poverty, broken families, a sense of hopelessness, drug and alcohol addictions, and mental illness. Those are complex issues, and weakening the law enforcement link is not the solution, but rather a knee jerk reaction resulting from flared emotions.

Metal god · June 15, 2020, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Did the Minneapolis City Council vote to defund the police dept or disband the police dept??

Yes but I probably shouldn't be commenting on it because I don't know exactly what they voted on . It was however reported as such kind of like the defund police reporting , we're not quite sure what that means .

Even disband in this context , I'm not sure what they could mean .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Google

disband-(of an organized group) break up or cause to break up and stop functioning.

You can't do that with out something in it's place which what ever that may be , it will take many months or even a couple years to do .

I also believe the police chief said he/they were immediately stopping negotiations with the police union . I'd think this would have to be one of the first things you do , break the union . Like it or not the majority of employees in the "new system" are likely going to be the cops from the "old" system . You either need to break the union or get them to agree to the new system of law enforcement . I'd think this would be true everywhere there is a union , and will not be easy .

I'd be interested in seeing the actual text of what they voted on and what there time line is expected to be .

EDIT it appears the resolution starts the process of figuring out how to make the change and what that change might be . I wonder when the current union deal is up ?

Quote:

It seems to me that those who want to defund the police lack a broad perspective.

Humans are an incredibly loving, empathetic, and charitable species, but due to their intense emotions they are also laced with streaks of anger, hatred, jealously, greed, and senseless violence that are not shared by most other species. A certain percentage of humans have problems controlling these emotions, and so for humans to live together in some acceptable level of harmony there must be rules that restrict negative behavior. Such rules are meaningless without enforcement, thus necessitating a system that captures the rule breakers, judges their degree of guilt, punishes bad behavior, and attempts reform.

Our police are the ones responsible for the capture, and they turn the offenders over to the judicial system for processing. They are a critical link in the chain, and weakening that link weakens the entire chain and with it any chance at peace and harmony.

To keep the law enforcement link strong, the emphasis should be on better training and more non-lethal tools, and that requires more funding, not less. While I can understand a police officer’s hand being fast to his weapon when working in neighborhoods with high levels of violent crime and hatred for police, lethal force must be avoided and reserved as a last resort. That takes a lot of training. While difficult to judge, officers who clearly ignore that concept, although a small minority, need to be identified and weeded out, by either retraining or removal.

Of course the root cause of lawlessness lies beneath, in what causes people to break the rules in the first place such as poverty, broken families, a sense of hopelessness, drug and alcohol addictions, and mental illness. Those are complex issues, and weakening the law enforcement link is not the solution, but rather a knee jerk reaction resulting from flared emotions.

Well said

Onward Allusion · June 15, 2020, 01:27 PM

Law enforcement is the weakest link in scenarios of dead black men by the hands of cops. If this isn't true, then please explain why we keep seeing this over and over again every week to every few days? Atlanta being the latest example. There are some seriously trigger happy cops out there who are looking to beat down or kill anyone that steps out of line... You know what they say about bad apples and the barrel . . .

**44 AMP** · June 15, 2020, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Of course the root cause of lawlessness lies beneath, in what causes people to break the rules in the first place such as poverty, broken families, a sense of hopelessness, drug and alcohol addictions, and mental illness. Those are complex issues,

Well put, but incomplete.

The missing factor is, I think, the most important one, and curiously is also the most often left out factor when the issue is discussed.

FREE WILL

People do bad things, because THEY WANT TO!!!

Not admitting this, or having it in the discussion is a form of burying your head in the sand. You can point to all the other societal factors, and say they are the cause, but, they aren't.

They are there, sure, and they do have an influence, but they aren't the root cause, the root cause is free will.

Take a look at any group of people who fit in your criteria as disadvantaged, poor, minority, drugs, abusive family, any and all of it, take a look at the people in those situations, and one thing ought to be blindingly obvious, only some of them break the law. Those who do, do it by CHOICE, NOT because "society forced them too...."

And, don't forget this applies to the police, as well.

Quote:

I also believe the police chief said he/they were immediately stopping negotiations with the police union . I'd think this would have to be one of the first things you do , break the union

I keep hearing this, or something like it, that in order to have change we have to "break the union". It's an overly simplistic, and inaccurate point.

We often hear the excuse, "we can't do anything the union won't let us" from management. It's a lame excuse, and not true, as stated.

Its not "the union" stopping them from "doing something about the problem", its the CONTRACT they signed with the union that does that (IF it does) and the union's holding management TO THAT CONTRACT.

Our police are under contract with the governments, city, town, county etc. Contracts which spell out what the management (govt) can, and cannot do. Contracts that were agreed to by BOTH sides.

If some (govt) management official can't do what he or she WANTS to do, because it is prohibited by the contract in force, today, that's NOT the fault of the union's "power". Its a legally binding contract.

IF they can't fire Officer Bad Guy without a complicated due process required by the contract, the blame should go to the people who signed the contract to begin with. IF abiding by their contract doesn't allow them the solutions they desire, its not time to cut off discussions with the union, its time to negotiate a new contract.

Am not saying it will be simple or easy, only that it is the proper way to get the changes desired.

Metal god · June 15, 2020, 02:35 PM

That’s why you have to break the union . So there is no contract to hide behind . In those contracts are the rules on how cops are disciplined , investigated etc . You can’t make a fundamental change on how the police work and what you demand of them with the contract still in place , it really is that simple . You must break the union first or somehow get them to agree to your gentler kinder you have to die before the suspect idea .

In full disclosure I’m coming from a place where I’ve never liked unions as a whole . It’s always appeared to me at least that they represent their members equally regardless of how bad they are or how poorly they do their job . They often have rules that allow poor performance to go on for years before you can do anything to the individual . Sure that’s great if you’re the lazy union worker but not good for the whole . No I don’t know this for sure but it’s probably the reason why it’s hard to get rid of those bad apples .

I’m going to stop there not because I’m finished with my point but rather I have lots to say but my farts are incomplete at this moment. I may be back to edit the some to continue or write a new post .

**44 AMP** · June 15, 2020, 04:09 PM

"breaking the union" and breaking the contract are quite different things.

When you confuse one with the other, you only muddy and confuse the issue.

One man's "hiding behind the contract" is another's "shield preventing abuse".

And if the non-union administrators (including elected and appointed ones) can't figure out how to fix things WITHIN THE AGREED UPON RULES (the contract), the problem is with them, not the union or its rank and file members.

Although I was a union member for over 3 decades, I'm not particularly pro union. I know how it's supposed to work, and I know how it often does work, and how they're not always the same thing.

I think blaming the unions (and saying we need to break them) is simply an attempt to shift the blame from administrators (at various levels) who are not doing their jobs properly to a "bad guy" in this case the unions, when they BOTH signed binding contracts to do things the way they have been done.

Back to "defunding the police"...again, here there are contractual issues involved. Any LEGAL defunding must be done within the boundaries of the existing contracts. Which means that officer salaries and benefits can't be touched until/unless you negotiate a new contract.

SO, what does that leave? Equipment (and maint) budgets, and training and general operating expenses.

Few would argue that reducing any of those is a good thing. So what do the "defund me" people REALLY want?

I have yet to hear how their plan(s) would work or even what their plans are, in detail. All I see right now is their apparent desire to punish all police (and in doing so punish the rest of us as well) for the actions of a few, and how taking away SOME of the money they get will do that.

Metal god · June 15, 2020, 04:26 PM

Quote:

I have yet to hear how their plan(s) would work or even what their plans are, in detail. All I see right now is their apparent desire to punish all police (and in doing so punish the rest of us as well) for the actions of a few, and how taking away SOME of the money they get will do that.

Well that's simple to explain . CANCEL CULTURE ! They don't want to hear facts about unions and contracts or how LOE's are actually needed .They will shout you down like they did to the Mayor and made him leave the protest . The rule of law ????? They're past that , fix it now and they'll worry about the law later forgetting if you don't follow the law while you fix the problem , the fix has no legitimacy .

Like in Seattle where they are having that big "block party" hmm I've never been to a party where you give a set of demands before you will give back control of the area ??

JN01 · June 15, 2020, 05:30 PM

The union can’t stop a prosecutor from charging an officer for criminal acts.

DaleA · June 15, 2020, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Law enforcement is the weakest link in scenarios of dead black men by the hands of cops. If this isn't true, then please explain why we keep seeing this over and over again every week to every few days? Atlanta being the latest example. There are some seriously trigger happy cops out there who are looking to beat down or kill anyone that steps out of line... You know what they say about bad apples and the barrel . . .

I haven't seen many (any) people defending the cop with his knee on George Floyd's neck so yeah I agree there are bad cops out there
But
A study reported in the August 6 edition of the “Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences” (not exactly a right-wing propaganda rag) stated in one of their research papers:

Quote:

We did not find evidence for anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparity in police use of force across all shootings, and, if anything, found anti-White disparities when controlling for race-specific crime. While racial disparity did vary by type of shooting, no one type of shooting showed significant anti-Black or -Hispanic disparity.

Although they did say also that more research on this issue is needed.
Link:
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877

Another study done by Harvard Professor of Economics, Roland Fryer, in June of 2019 said:

Quote:

On the most extreme use of force –oﬃcer-involved shootings – we ﬁnd no racial diﬀerences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account.

It should be noted that Professor Roland Fry is an African-American male.
Link:
https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/pu...lice-use-force

Both of the above items were mentioned at about the 3 minute 30 second mark by Ben Shapiro in a nine minute video:
“MINNEAPOLIS BURNS - But Does It Need To?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhrvJfjqUiM

Another person that doesn't think young Black men are under systematic attack by the police is Candace Owens. You can listen to the whole video or jump to the 9 minute mark if you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiiBWki-C6A

June 12, 2020, 07:21 PM	#51
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	I turn 50 this year and in that time I've had interaction with police on numerus occasions . When I use the term interaction I mean it to mean where I was involved in why they were called or a wittiness to a crime or other . 1st time I was 14-ish walking to school . I had broke my leg earlier that year so they changed my class schedule around to give me PE 1st period which I did not have to attend . This meant I started school at 2nd period and did not get to school until shortly before 2nd period started . As I walked to school a cop stopped me about 2 blocks from school and asked why I wasn't in school . I explained why and he seemed ok with that . He was cool and not at all being difficult . He said he needed to take me to school to confirm what I said was true . I thought OK what ever but he then said he would need to search me before putting me in the car because it was procedure to do so . Long story short he did search me and found something I should not legally have in one of my pockets and handcuffed me . He then put in the backseat of the car and drove me to school . All this while he was actually still being very cool about everything . The way he was handling things really effected how I interacted with him , I don't remember what about but we even joked about something a bit . Anyways this resulted in a suspension from school and mandatory family therapy with my mom . During one of the therapy sessions the Dr read me the police report and I was shocked at what it said . It said I didn't seem to care about the trouble I was in and was just joking around with him . Well kinda but it was his coolness that put me at ease . If it wasn't for the report I'd say it was one of the best interactions I've had with police , especially when I was in the wrong and having to deal with them . Also in the grand scheme of things I wasn't in big trouble . 2nd time I was 16ish and was out very late doing things I shouldn't at the beach with friends . The cops rolled up took our info and because it wasn't anything truly bad they decided to just take us each home so they could talk with are parents . My mom was asleep on the couch and I tried to lightly wake her up but she's a deep sleeper so the cop asked her name and I told him . He then yield her name to wake her up which scared the crap out of her , she didn't even know I had left the house that night . Even after she was awake the cop refused to stop shining his flashlight directly in her face even after being asked to move the light multiple times . To this day she gets worked up about that and calls him a JA 3rd time ( I'm an adult now ) trained in private security and have testified in court so I might have a better understanding of being a wittiness then maybe your average joe . Not related to the job but I was a wittiness of an assault by one neighbor against another neighbor . I was the one that actually called the cops because it was a man hitting a woman and that's just not cool . To be fare they argued all the time over STUPID stuff but it never got physical until then . I watched most of what happened so I had a good idea what happened . Even though I called and was a eye wittiness the cops never came over to ask me any questions . After about two weeks I called and asked the detective why I had not been interviewed he said that I just need to leave him ( the guy who punched the woman ) alone and hung up . It turns out with out even interviewing the eye wittiness the cops on seen determined the lady was at fault and wrote the report as such . Of course I'm leaving a bunch out but there's no need to go into great detail as to what I saw , the point is the same . What's in the report is all that matters not what really happened . 4th ( there were others but these really stick out ) There's an intersection by my house where there are a lot of accidents , at times very bad ones . Over the years two people have died in separate accidents there . One night I hear a very bad one ( After years of hearing these you can tell which ones are the bad ones ) so I go out to be a looky loo . As I'm there looking around I see a guy sitting on the curb ( by now fire and police are there ) and he did not look well . Eyes Wide open looking very much in shock but nobody paying any attention to him . So I walk over and ask him if he's ok and he just rambles about how bad that was I ask were you in the car and he said yes . This was a car that overturned and may have flipped more then once . I found the closest cop/emt which was a cop at the time . He was talking/interviewing someone ( like me just a guy that came out to look ) and I said excuse me but this guy over here is in bad shape but I did not get a response . I said it a second time louder and moving closer which prompted him to turn to me and aggressively tell me to stop interrupting him he was conducting an interview . I just shook my head because by now in life I've started to have an opinion of the police and it was not good . All the other EMT's seemed actually busy so I ran home and got a blanket , returned and put it around the guy . I looked him over and it appeared he did not have any visible injuries but was still pretty out of it . It was about this time an EMT walked by and I pointed the guy out to them . I said he was in the car that overturned . There eyes opened up almost as much as the guy I was talking about . They immediately came over and started working on him and he turned out to be the first guy transported to the hospital . I could imagine what that cops report said and how great he came off in it Ok that's just the most memorable ones . I have a true dislike for the police , to be clear not the individual person in the uniform but my interactions over the years have given me a real lack of confidence in the police as a whole . That all said and I know it was a lot , defunding the police is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard . LEO actually means something ! They are Law Enforcement Officers , with out them there is no need for laws !!! The fact people actually think you can have other people going out and dealing with ( sorry) crazy people or drug addict's is naïve at best and down right ignorant at worst . How do these kinder gentler folks get the authority to force citizens to do what they kindly want them to do ??? What if they don't want your kinder help and would rather stay on the street shooting up and or keep screaming at people about the spaceman coming to get them ?? Now what , remember we can't have police come that might trigger them even more hurting there feelings . We are a nation of laws and until there are none we will always need LEO's The issue is training pure and simple along with a real threat of going to jail if you do something wrong as a cop . Stopping the wrong person or breaking down the wrong door MUST STOP . They are in a position of great power and can't be aloud to get those things wrong . I've always disliked the word "shield" because that's what it is . It's a shield preventing accountability and don't get me started on unions . This is such a complex and HUGE problem that it will not be solved by outlawing the choke hold , defunding the police , having kinder people dealing with none violent crimes etc . This is going to take real leadership with deep thinkers giving advice . Unfortunately we don't have any true leaders right now in this country and they all seem to be working from very shallow thoughts . Oh and those pointing out statistics as if they were gospel . Give me a break , correct me if I'm wrong but didn't all the cops in the Rodney King beating get off and were found not guilty ? So that's just one of what I'm sure are hundreds of police reports written every year saying what they did was justified . The police reports rule all and even the King video didn't help . Do you think for a second if there was no video of Floyds death . The police report would have said he resisted arrest and his death was not related to the arrest ? He would have been just another statistic that never happened . ABSINCE OF EVIDANCE IS NOT EVIDANCE OF ABSINCE __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; June 13, 2020 at 12:35 PM.

June 12, 2020, 11:15 PM	#52
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	This is going to be interesting to watch: Which politicians make rational decisions. Which groups have legitimate claims. Which individuals are of significant concern. This too shall pass, but in times of stress, we see what people are really made of, and that information is most important. We’ll see. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

June 13, 2020, 07:35 AM	#54
RETG Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2009 Location: Somewhere in Idaho, near WY Posts: 507	It will most likely remain a mystery for many years. As polls come out, many change their views on defunding. As for how sill it affect the average person? That depends on where you live. If you live in a large city in certain states like MN, MI, CA, WA, NY, NJ just to name a few it could affect you but it will take time to determine what the effect will be. However, for people, like me, who live in the middle of nowhere, there will be very little since we have no plans on defunding our Sheriff or State Police; or at least never seen anything on that subject. __________________ I give MY OPINION (not often) based on many years shooting at, other than paper targets. I will not debate my experience vs. your experience based on dreams and "what ifs." I'm 73; I'm too damn old to care.

June 13, 2020, 11:06 AM	#55
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	There is no meaning . At least not one many would agree with . It depends on who you ask as to what it means . It truey means everything from completely abolishing the police to slightly lowering there budget and allocating those funds for other things . It’s just a catch phrase for shollow thinkers to use and does not have deep meaning . I’ll tell you what many of the mods here say when discussing new legislation that has not been written yet . I’m paraphrasing here, until we see the text of the bill it’s a waste of time to speculate and debate what it means and how it will affect us . It means lawlessness in many areas . Just look at the situation in Seattle where several citizens have taken over areas of the city creating their own laws . Nobody’s pointed out exactly how it will affect you/us because it can affect us in so many ways it would take three pages of examples to explain how It can effect you . Generally that’s why the mods don’t let these types of threads go on . The hypotheticals you could come up with are endless . I don’t agree with not allowing the discussions to happen . I think they’re helpful for other people that may not have thought of certain things . To hear or read multiple perspectives can really help form a better opinion on how you may feel about something . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; June 13, 2020 at 12:38 PM.

June 13, 2020, 12:36 PM	#56
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	While it is fairly certain that, if someone is doing a bad job, giving them more money will get you more of a bad job, it is far from certain that giving them less money will get you less of a bad job. Defunding the police clearly means giving them less money, but the details of what that means differs with each different group you talk to. You can't pay them less, unless you renegotiate their contract. and, to do that both sides have to agree. Good Luck with that! So, what's left? Reduce, or eliminate their money for equipment and training?? I don't see that having any positive result. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 13, 2020, 06:16 AM	#53
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	So - after two pages & 52 posts - it's still a mystery of what "defunding" means & how it's going to be implemented & most importantly - how it will impact those of us that choose to go into the world armed for our own protection and the protection of those members of our families? I had hoped that's what this thread would have addressed - not how the police treat us..... Again - exactly what is "defunding" and how will that impact us average Joe Sixpacks?

June 13, 2020, 03:53 PM	#60
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	We are discussing checkers when the game is chess. Who stands to gain by the elimination of police as we know them,and replacing them with what??? Given the enclave in Seattle ,perhaps Sharia and the Taliban could be studied as a model. At least consider how China is "social engineering" using 5 G tech. Perhaps the Computer Models that unfailingly predict COVID and Climate , utilizing every keystroke and phone conversation you have ever made , could be used by the "Right People" Place these tools in the hands of appointed social workers,,and they will be able to predict your anti social behavior,before you even think of it,and pre emptively arrest you before you commit a crime. Or just disintegrate you with a drone strike. All for the Greater Good,of course. If it only saves one li'fe.... Or maybe the "Helter Skelter" plan was ahead of its time....But who is playing the role of Charlie Manson? Sorry. We do live in interesting times. "Be careful what you wish for" seems sage advice. Last edited by HiBC; June 13, 2020 at 03:59 PM.

June 14, 2020, 10:04 AM	#62
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	If it weren't for all the surveillance cameras and smartphones all of these violations by the police would be filed under justified shooting. To the folks who don't believe that there is a problem, all I gotta say is that you are dead wrong and are living in the past. A lot of old guys do not get it. Defunding isn't elimination. Only a moron would believe this. This thread will not go anywhere and will only cause additional division among gun owners. I now agree with most of the moderators who simply close non-firearms related posts. There are many other venues to get one's blood pressure up. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

June 14, 2020, 11:03 AM	#63
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	I'll play. Disclaimer: I don't actually KNOW this is what the defunders have in mind this is just my best guess and it's just an opinion. If a guy is being robbed or a store is being broken into or a car is being stolen *right at the time of the call to 911* then the "regular" police get sent. If a guy *has* been robbed or a store *has* been broken into or a car *has* been stolen then you send in the report writers to write up a report and the grief counselors to aid the traumatized victim. The regular police don't show up. If there is a "disturbance" (this gets tricky) the "hug patrol" and the "designated disturbance de-escalators" are immediately dispatched armed with an MP3 player loaded with Kumbaya to resolve the issue to the satisfaction of all involved. As one radio commentator snidely opined after a couple of these peace patrollers get blown away maybe the regular cops will be dispatched right behind them to cover their efforts. Just to be fair...you know armed cops might just not be needed at some things they routinely get dispatched for, that part just might work. And the armed cops might actually be relieved not to have to be the front line guys dealing with "disturbances". It's possible they would be quite happy to hang back and let the "mental health" professionals take the lead on these. Snarky comment to follow: As for traffic stops, drug deals, civil disobedience, well, I think there are some in my neck of the woods (Twin Cities MN) that would just let these "minor" things slide. Just my opinions on the current situation and I hope everyone gives them the attention they deserve.

June 15, 2020, 10:28 AM	#66
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	There is something I'm not clear on. I believe I have heard it reported both ways. Did the Minneapolis City Council vote to defund the police dept or disband the police dept?? The words "Disband" and "Defund" have different meanings.

June 15, 2020, 11:33 AM	#67
TomNJVA Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2014 Location: Floyd, VA Posts: 242	It seems to me that those who want to defund the police lack a broad perspective. Humans are an incredibly loving, empathetic, and charitable species, but due to their intense emotions they are also laced with streaks of anger, hatred, jealously, greed, and senseless violence that are not shared by most other species. A certain percentage of humans have problems controlling these emotions, and so for humans to live together in some acceptable level of harmony there must be rules that restrict negative behavior. Such rules are meaningless without enforcement, thus necessitating a system that captures the rule breakers, judges their degree of guilt, punishes bad behavior, and attempts reform. Our police are the ones responsible for the capture, and they turn the offenders over to the judicial system for processing. They are a critical link in the chain, and weakening that link weakens the entire chain and with it any chance at peace and harmony. To keep the law enforcement link strong, the emphasis should be on better training and more non-lethal tools, and that requires more funding, not less. While I can understand a police officer’s hand being fast to his weapon when working in neighborhoods with high levels of violent crime and hatred for police, lethal force must be avoided and reserved as a last resort. That takes a lot of training. While difficult to judge, officers who clearly ignore that concept, although a small minority, need to be identified and weeded out, by either retraining or removal. Of course the root cause of lawlessness lies beneath, in what causes people to break the rules in the first place such as poverty, broken families, a sense of hopelessness, drug and alcohol addictions, and mental illness. Those are complex issues, and weakening the law enforcement link is not the solution, but rather a knee jerk reaction resulting from flared emotions. __________________ In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed.

June 15, 2020, 01:27 PM	#69
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	Law enforcement is the weakest link in scenarios of dead black men by the hands of cops. If this isn't true, then please explain why we keep seeing this over and over again every week to every few days? Atlanta being the latest example. There are some seriously trigger happy cops out there who are looking to beat down or kill anyone that steps out of line... You know what they say about bad apples and the barrel . . . __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

June 15, 2020, 02:35 PM	#71
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	That’s why you have to break the union . So there is no contract to hide behind . In those contracts are the rules on how cops are disciplined , investigated etc . You can’t make a fundamental change on how the police work and what you demand of them with the contract still in place , it really is that simple . You must break the union first or somehow get them to agree to your gentler kinder you have to die before the suspect idea . In full disclosure I’m coming from a place where I’ve never liked unions as a whole . It’s always appeared to me at least that they represent their members equally regardless of how bad they are or how poorly they do their job . They often have rules that allow poor performance to go on for years before you can do anything to the individual . Sure that’s great if you’re the lazy union worker but not good for the whole . No I don’t know this for sure but it’s probably the reason why it’s hard to get rid of those bad apples . I’m going to stop there not because I’m finished with my point but rather I have lots to say but my farts are incomplete at this moment. I may be back to edit the some to continue or write a new post . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

June 15, 2020, 04:09 PM	#72
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	"breaking the union" and breaking the contract are quite different things. When you confuse one with the other, you only muddy and confuse the issue. One man's "hiding behind the contract" is another's "shield preventing abuse". And if the non-union administrators (including elected and appointed ones) can't figure out how to fix things WITHIN THE AGREED UPON RULES (the contract), the problem is with them, not the union or its rank and file members. Although I was a union member for over 3 decades, I'm not particularly pro union. I know how it's supposed to work, and I know how it often does work, and how they're not always the same thing. I think blaming the unions (and saying we need to break them) is simply an attempt to shift the blame from administrators (at various levels) who are not doing their jobs properly to a "bad guy" in this case the unions, when they BOTH signed binding contracts to do things the way they have been done. Back to "defunding the police"...again, here there are contractual issues involved. Any LEGAL defunding must be done within the boundaries of the existing contracts. Which means that officer salaries and benefits can't be touched until/unless you negotiate a new contract. SO, what does that leave? Equipment (and maint) budgets, and training and general operating expenses. Few would argue that reducing any of those is a good thing. So what do the "defund me" people REALLY want? I have yet to hear how their plan(s) would work or even what their plans are, in detail. All I see right now is their apparent desire to punish all police (and in doing so punish the rest of us as well) for the actions of a few, and how taking away SOME of the money they get will do that. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 15, 2020, 05:30 PM	#74
JN01 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2005 Location: E Tennessee Posts: 828	The union can’t stop a prosecutor from charging an officer for criminal acts.