Handloader sold ammo to LV murderer

HiBC · February 2, 2018, 11:03 PM

I'm making no comments about the merits of the case.

Folks occasionally ask if its lawful or a good idea to sell handloads.

According to this article,this man is in trouble for loading some of the ammo the Las Vegas murderer used .His fingerprints were on the ammo.

This would be food for thought.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...202-story.html

**Aguila Blanca** · February 2, 2018, 11:54 PM

If he regularly sells at gun shows he probably wouldn't have anything to worry about ... except for that little detail about making armor-piercing ammunition without a license to do so.

In The Ten Ring · February 3, 2018, 08:10 AM

Remember guys, reporters usually have little idea of grammar and no idea about anything legal or technical. Was he actually making bullets or just reloading bullets into loaded cartridges?

Often times, authorities (even judges) have little idea of laws themselves which leads to long court cases and lawyers making more money. We'll have to see how this plays out.

L2R · February 3, 2018, 10:02 AM

not much information here. No idea whether he was licensed to sell ball ammo either. Doubt reporter cares about details or facts. The exciting part of the story (armor piercing bullets) is the selling point to the general public.

**44 AMP** · February 3, 2018, 01:12 PM

I read the linked article, and it contains a number of "facts" that are not necessarily linked to anything, or even relevant. There is simply not enough information provided to even inform us what crime was committed, if any, and how.

All we really know is that he is being charged with ....

The rules for AP (rifle) ammo are a bizarre collection based on the paranoid fantasies of zealots. For close on a century AP ammo was not regulated any differently than other ammo. Today, it is covered by numerous restriction that do not apply to other ammo.

The key information needed to support the charge of "manufacturing AP ammo without a license" is not given to us, at this time.

And, there are, I believe, allowances in the law for certain things, but not others. "Manufacturing" AP ammo might be handloading AP bullets into your own brass. I don't know the current interpretation of the law, but at one time, you could legally do this, make AP ammo by handloading, FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE, without needing a license.

BUT, you could not sell, trade, or even give AP ammo to anyone else without a license being needed. (legal eagles, please correct me if I get anything wrong)

The guy ran a "hobby" ammo business, (apparently) buying and selling ammo, and freely admits he sold ammo to the guy who became the Vegas shooter. (so, finding his fingerprints on ammo the Vegas shooter had is kind of a no brainer, but its good "click bait" headline material.

Same with the article saying how police "seized" AP bullets (and other things) when they conducted a search warrant on his place. It's probably a fact, but does it mean a crime was committed because they found AP bullets (not loaded ammo- IF the reporter used the correct word)??

it does not. Lots of us all over the country have some AP bullets, or even some actual AP ammo (

) it's still, as far as I know, perfectly legal to own. Doing anything else with it can run into some laws, but just having it isn't a crime, yet...

I note that the guy isn't being charged in dealing ammo without a license, or making and selling ammo without a license. Facts are missing, but this implies that he did have the needed licenses for what he was doing.

SO far as we know, right not, he's being charged with making AP ammo without a license. Only that. So far, anyway.

It is not impossible that the charge of making AP ammo without a license is based on the DA using the constructive possession argument to make his case. (he HAD AP bullets, he was a reloader, therefore he could have made AP ammo, and so can be charged...)

We'll have to see where this one goes. Other than sensational sounding headlines, at this point there is almost nothing else.

xandi · February 3, 2018, 01:29 PM

AP bullets Could be just some ss109 projectiles for all we know

**Aguila Blanca** · February 3, 2018, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xandi

AP bullets Could be just some ss109 projectiles for all we know

Could be, but it's my understanding that those are expressly classified as non-AP. The BATFE moved to reclassify them as AP a couple/few years ago, and the initative was quickly shot down.

HiBC · February 3, 2018, 03:15 PM

Folks,thats why I made no comment on the merits of the case.Its just one article of extremely dubious content written by an ignorant reporter.

I don't know the details of the law.I roll and shoot my own.I don't shoot gun show reloads.

Its a mob psyche witch hunt that has to burn someone. Golly Gee! Its NOT FAIR!!! I may get triggered and go to my safe space.Play Dough! Now!!

Does that matter? He is in jail.Life is going to get tough.He might lose everything and go to prison.

For loading ammo and selling it at a gun show.

We all make choicesThereare more posting,it seems.I did not open.

Salmoneye · February 3, 2018, 04:34 PM

Hate HuffPo, but scroll down and this link has the 13 page complaint against Haig:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b06ee97af2ae63

ADDING:

I see now that there is a link in the OP's article to the complaint also...

Serves me right for skimming it the first time...

In The Ten Ring · February 3, 2018, 05:28 PM

Fox News just reported he was arrested for selling tracer ammo and then they described what tracer ammo is. No tracer ammo used in the shooting.

Mr. Haig did not appear to be in jail.

I think the DA is looking for scapegoats to cover up their own terrible handling of the case, evidence, the constantly changing timelines, etc.

**44 AMP** · February 3, 2018, 05:46 PM

Well, I just read the complaint, via the OP's link, and while some of the forensic evidence seem like something out of MY COUSIN VINNIE,...
("consistent with" is NOT the same as "identical to", and "metalurgically identified" is not necessarily the same as "legally identified", etc.)

The evidence given by witnesses indicates Mr Haig has been a rather naughty boy...

I did learn something, I was unaware, until I read the complaint that anyone made explosive bullets in .30 caliber. I suppose it was inevitable, and I admit to not following that kind of thing closely. Last I heard (some years ago) RAUFOS and/or exploding bullets were only made "down" to .50 cal.

It appears that what he sold to the man who became the Vegas shooter was tracer, or possibly API. I'd like to believe that the inclusion of API or APT ammo in with regular tracer was a mistake, but, it seems he has been selling AP ammo that he made (assembled) to other people, and apparently without the proper license(s) to do so, and so it may not have been a simple oversight or packaging error.

I'd like to think Haig was a good guy, simply caught unaware by the minutae of the law in this area, but if the complaint is accurate about selling making AP for sale, and selling it, without the right license, then whether by intent or criminal ignorance, it doesn't matter much, except, maybe at his sentencing.

If you are going to deal in firearms or ammo, and especially in the more restricted portions of that field, you MUST know, understand, and OBEY ALL applicable laws. Failure to do so is no one else's fault, ever.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 3, 2018, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

If you are going to deal in firearms or ammo, and especially in the more restricted portions of that field, you MUST know, understand, and OBEY ALL applicable laws. Failure to do so is no one else's fault, ever.

That's it in a nutshell.

We don't have to like the laws, but the prudent person does his or her best to conduct his or her life in accordance with the laws. My great-grandfather was a law professor and my grandfather was his student. I was brought up to obey the laws and, if we don't like a law, don't ignore it ... get it changed. A number of years ago I had an active role in getting a particularly stupid, 80-year old law repealed in my state. It can be done.

Nathan · February 3, 2018, 07:51 PM

From what I've seen and read, I think we have no clue what Mr Haig did.

On one hand, they talk about AP ammo and he says he sold the guy tracers....please teach me. Can these ever be the same thing?

So then selling without a license becomes the issue. The guy sells at gun shows that are about 1/2 ATF agents in attendance. My guess is he has a license to Mfg ammunition. I'm not sure, but maybe??

Now, how will they ever separate what he sold from the AP ammo, if both were all over the place....heck, I frankly don't buy that any AP ammo was found since ss109 is a "sporting" bullet per current rulings.

Can somebody explain to me what 5.56 ammo is AP and currently available? I'm thinking none!

phil1979 · February 4, 2018, 01:08 AM

If this is just a case of paperwork minutia and a witch-hunt just to get somebody for something based on vague and confusing definitions in the law, then I hope somebody on his jury will just nullify the whole thing.

"I'm sorry folks, but I just don't think the government proved its case. I'll be glad to discuss and deliberate the facts with y'all for the next six weeks if you want, but I don't anticipate changing my 'not guilty" vote any time soon."

thallub · February 4, 2018, 09:41 AM

According to the federal agent who wrote up the charges we do have a clue.

The reloader's fingerprints were found on the AP rounds. The cartridge cases had tool marks from reloading dies.

Scroll down to page six:

https://www.scribd.com/document/3706...dium=affiliate

Nathan · February 4, 2018, 11:52 AM

Quote:

On one hand, they talk about AP ammo and he says he sold the guy tracers....please teach me. Can these ever be the same thing?

Found some with google! No interest for me...they probably fly like crap and put the same hole in the paper!

**Aguila Blanca** · February 4, 2018, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil1979

If this is just a case of paperwork minutia and a witch-hunt just to get somebody for something based on vague and confusing definitions in the law, then I hope somebody on his jury will just nullify the whole thing.

"I'm sorry folks, but I just don't think the government proved its case. I'll be glad to discuss and deliberate the facts with y'all for the next six weeks if you want, but I don't anticipate changing my 'not guilty" vote any time soon."

In principle, I am in favor of jury nullification. I try to be sure that people are aware of it -- and I've been removed from a jury pool because I had to acknowledge (under oath) that I was aware of the principle and that I agree with it. But I think it should be reserved for cases where failure to nullify would result in a true miscarrriage of justice. Without more and better information, I'm not convinced that this case fits that criterion.

Mr. Haig might be a nice guy. But ... the regulations are clear that if you manufacture ammunition for sale, you need a particular type of FFL. The regulations are also clear that you're not supposed to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition. If Mr. Haig was manufacturing ammunition for sale (which he clearly was) without the required FFL, and/or if he was manufacturing armor-piercing ammunition, I'm just not convinced that's the sort of case that deserves jury nullification. The guy is an aerospace engineer -- he's not some dummy who couldn't read three words into a law because he's functionally illiterate. If (note -- "IF") he broke the law, it would appear that he did so intentionally and knowingly. I'm uncomfortable condoning such behavior.

**44 AMP** · February 4, 2018, 01:15 PM

Quote:

The reloader's fingerprints were found on the AP rounds. The cartridge cases had tool marks from reloading dies.

It seems to me that the lab results, as described in charges are open to rebuttal, because of the language used. I am curious why those particular words were chosen, and not something else. And I wonder what. if any difference in language there might be between what was written in the complaint, and what is in the actual lab report.

The reason I wonder about that is, if there is no other interpretation of the evidence possible, why use words that suggest that there could be???

on particular, this
"these cartridges were marked with toolmarks consistent with markings made during reloading operations; "

why say it that way? IF the markings on the cartridges indicated they had been reloaded, why not say that? Why say "markings consistent with"??

leaves things open to questions, as I see it.

and this,
"the bullets in the cartridges with Haig's fingerprints on them were metallurgically classified as armor piercing/incendiary bullets."

Now, just what does that mean? What was the standard used? How, if any does it differ from the LEGAL definition of AP??? I think it would be important to know if they were legally AP bullets. Not everything that can be called AP is legally AP.

Apparently based on the lab "metallurgically classifying" the bullets as AP was enough for the FBI to say the rounds were (legally?) AP, and go from there.

I'd love to see this argued out a battle between experts over these and a few other points. I'd like to hear the additional information (that we don't currently have) that would be brought out to bolster or smash different arguments.

Again, I am reminded of the movie My Counsin Vinny", and how what a lab report and expert testimony can seem to say one thing, and yet actually be something else.

thallub · February 4, 2018, 01:53 PM

Read the entire charge sheet. Haig advertised HEAP, API and AP ammo for sale on his website. The feds interviewed folks who bought such ammo. Read Review Of Sales Records and Documents. beginning on page nine.

The feds may have been watching Mr. Haig prior to the Las Vegas massacre.

Haig is an engineer with a good full time job and a top secret security clearance. Correction, he had a security clearance prior to these federal charges.

https://www.intellihub.com/douglas-h...opter-program/

Danoobie · February 4, 2018, 02:10 PM

So, somebody with multiple semi-autos was firing on a crowd of 23,000+,
from an elevated position, for over ten minutes, and only managed to kill
@ 60 people, IIRC.

Perhaps if the ammunition had been new, from a factory, the death toll might
have been considerably higher, how about that?

**Frank Ettin** · February 4, 2018, 04:06 PM

First, let me remind everyone that the link in the OP is to an LA Times article. News articles almost never get the legal details correct.

Second, federal law requires that anyone engaged in the business of manufacturing ammunition have a license. And there is an additional license necessary to be engaged in the manufacturing of armor piercing ammunition. (See 18 USC 923(a)(1))

It does appear that Haig had a side business manufacturing and selling ammunition, and that some of the ammunition he made and sold might have been armor piercing ammunition. We don't seem to know what, if any licenses he held. The charge does, however, suggest that he didn't have whatever license he needed for what he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

..."these cartridges were marked with toolmarks consistent with markings made during reloading operations; "

why say it that way? IF the markings on the cartridges indicated they had been reloaded, why not say that? Why say "markings consistent with"??...

That's how forensic scientists always frame their conclusions. Unlike what they do on TV, a Firearms and Toolmark examiner can't really say, "Those pry marks were made with this screwdriver." He can't say that basically because he hasn't compared the pry marks with every screwdriver in the world. So his testimony would be, "The pry marks on the door jam are consistent with having been made by the screwdriver entered into evidence as 'Prosecution Exhibit 5."

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil1979

..."I'm sorry folks, but I just don't think the government proved its case. I'll be glad to discuss and deliberate the facts with y'all for the next six weeks if you want, but I don't anticipate changing my 'not guilty" vote any time soon."

Resulting in a mistrial and a new trial with a different jury.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 4, 2018, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil1979

..."I'm sorry folks, but I just don't think the government proved its case. I'll be glad to discuss and deliberate the facts with y'all for the next six weeks if you want, but I don't anticipate changing my 'not guilty" vote any time soon."

Resulting in a mistrial and a new trial with a different jury.

Or not.

If enough members of the jury favor acquittal, and if the prosecutor isn't on a witch hunt, the prosecution may decide that a retrial isn't worth the time, effort, and expense because the outcome is likely to be the same.

That said, even if I were the only hold-out, the fact that my vote for "Not Guilty" would probably only result in another trial is not a valid reason to abandon my conscience and vote with the herd.

rwilson452 · February 4, 2018, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Or not.

If enough members of the jury favor acquittal, and if the prosecutor isn't on a witch hunt, the prosecution may decide that a retrial isn't worth the time, effort, and expense because the outcome is likely to be the same.

That said, even if I were the only hold-out, the fact that my vote for "Not Guilty" would probably only result in another trial is not a valid reason to abandon my conscience and vote with the herd.

I'm betting you wouldn't make it on to the jury. Your the kind of guy the persecuter doesn't want.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 4, 2018, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwilson452

I'm betting you wouldn't make it on to the jury. Your the kind of guy the persecuter doesn't want.

No bet. Been there, done that.

A number of years ago I was on jury duty. Unlike previous times, when voir dire was conducted individually, this time they started out with a mass voir dire. The entire jury pool was sworn in. First question was, 'Would anyone have a problem following the judge's instructions on the law?"

Normally, I would have STFU, but ... I was under oath, so I had to raise my hand. Then the attorneys from BOTH sides piled on. My position was consistent: How could I say I would follow the judge's instructions on the law without knowing what the law under discussion is, and what the judge might say it means? They didn't like that.

Finally, they sequestered me in a small room off the courtroom, hunted down a judge, then brought me back in. By this time the other prospective jurors had been taken somewhere else. The judge proceeded to ask me the same questions, and I gave her the same answers. I explained that the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court had stated that the jury is the trier of the facts and of the law, and that this had never been changed since he said it. The judge told me my understanding of history was incorrect and to go home and do my homework, then she dismissed me from jury duty.

So I went home, looked up the case (which I knew, since I am descended from that Chief Justice), and wrote the judge a letter to advise her that I had done as she instructed, done my homework, and that I felt I was correct and she was incorrect.

She never acknowledged my letter. That was probably ten years ago, and I haven't been called for jury duty since. I'm probably on a blacklist.

**44 AMP** · February 5, 2018, 12:15 AM

Quote:

My position was consistent: How could I say I would follow the judge's instructions on the law without knowing what the law under discussion is, and what the judge might say it means? They didn't like that.

I imagine they didn't! Neither side wants a juror who actually thinks.

It seems commonplace today, to ask that we agree (and under penalty of law in some cases) to something, without being informed exactly (or sometimes even generally) just WHAT that something is.

One of my personal peeves is how almost no one seem to understand what the word verify means. When I get asked to verify some information (usually personal), I just say, "sure". and then wait...

After some moments of them giving me that deer in the headlight look, they often say, "well??" and I reply, "give me the information, and I'll tell you if it's correct" That's what "verify" means.

More blank stare, then "I can't do that..."
"Well, then I can't verify your information. I can give you the information you want, but I can't verify what you have, unless you tell me what it is."

Once in a while, rarely, but once in a while, they get it.

I wouldn't agree to obey rules or instructions, "sight unseen" any more than I would sign a blank check.

I did that once..I enlisted!

Once.

February 2, 2018, 11:03 PM	#1
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Handloader sold ammo to LV murderer I'm making no comments about the merits of the case. Folks occasionally ask if its lawful or a good idea to sell handloads. According to this article,this man is in trouble for loading some of the ammo the Las Vegas murderer used .His fingerprints were on the ammo. This would be food for thought. http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...202-story.html

February 3, 2018, 10:02 AM	#4
L2R Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 358	not much information here. No idea whether he was licensed to sell ball ammo either. Doubt reporter cares about details or facts. The exciting part of the story (armor piercing bullets) is the selling point to the general public. __________________ L2R

February 3, 2018, 01:12 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	I read the linked article, and it contains a number of "facts" that are not necessarily linked to anything, or even relevant. There is simply not enough information provided to even inform us what crime was committed, if any, and how. All we really know is that he is being charged with .... The rules for AP (rifle) ammo are a bizarre collection based on the paranoid fantasies of zealots. For close on a century AP ammo was not regulated any differently than other ammo. Today, it is covered by numerous restriction that do not apply to other ammo. The key information needed to support the charge of "manufacturing AP ammo without a license" is not given to us, at this time. And, there are, I believe, allowances in the law for certain things, but not others. "Manufacturing" AP ammo might be handloading AP bullets into your own brass. I don't know the current interpretation of the law, but at one time, you could legally do this, make AP ammo by handloading, FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE, without needing a license. BUT, you could not sell, trade, or even give AP ammo to anyone else without a license being needed. (legal eagles, please correct me if I get anything wrong) The guy ran a "hobby" ammo business, (apparently) buying and selling ammo, and freely admits he sold ammo to the guy who became the Vegas shooter. (so, finding his fingerprints on ammo the Vegas shooter had is kind of a no brainer, but its good "click bait" headline material. Same with the article saying how police "seized" AP bullets (and other things) when they conducted a search warrant on his place. It's probably a fact, but does it mean a crime was committed because they found AP bullets (not loaded ammo- IF the reporter used the correct word)?? it does not. Lots of us all over the country have some AP bullets, or even some actual AP ammo () it's still, as far as I know, perfectly legal to own. Doing anything else with it can run into some laws, but just having it isn't a crime, yet... I note that the guy isn't being charged in dealing ammo without a license, or making and selling ammo without a license. Facts are missing, but this implies that he did have the needed licenses for what he was doing. SO far as we know, right not, he's being charged with making AP ammo without a license. Only that. So far, anyway. It is not impossible that the charge of making AP ammo without a license is based on the DA using the constructive possession argument to make his case. (he HAD AP bullets, he was a reloader, therefore he could have made AP ammo, and so can be charged...) We'll have to see where this one goes. Other than sensational sounding headlines, at this point there is almost nothing else. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 3, 2018, 05:46 PM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	Well, I just read the complaint, via the OP's link, and while some of the forensic evidence seem like something out of MY COUSIN VINNIE,... ("consistent with" is NOT the same as "identical to", and "metalurgically identified" is not necessarily the same as "legally identified", etc.) The evidence given by witnesses indicates Mr Haig has been a rather naughty boy... I did learn something, I was unaware, until I read the complaint that anyone made explosive bullets in .30 caliber. I suppose it was inevitable, and I admit to not following that kind of thing closely. Last I heard (some years ago) RAUFOS and/or exploding bullets were only made "down" to .50 cal. It appears that what he sold to the man who became the Vegas shooter was tracer, or possibly API. I'd like to believe that the inclusion of API or APT ammo in with regular tracer was a mistake, but, it seems he has been selling AP ammo that he made (assembled) to other people, and apparently without the proper license(s) to do so, and so it may not have been a simple oversight or packaging error. I'd like to think Haig was a good guy, simply caught unaware by the minutae of the law in this area, but if the complaint is accurate about selling making AP for sale, and selling it, without the right license, then whether by intent or criminal ignorance, it doesn't matter much, except, maybe at his sentencing. If you are going to deal in firearms or ammo, and especially in the more restricted portions of that field, you MUST know, understand, and OBEY ALL applicable laws. Failure to do so is no one else's fault, ever. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 4, 2018, 01:53 PM	#19
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Read the entire charge sheet. Haig advertised HEAP, API and AP ammo for sale on his website. The feds interviewed folks who bought such ammo. Read Review Of Sales Records and Documents. beginning on page nine. The feds may have been watching Mr. Haig prior to the Las Vegas massacre. Haig is an engineer with a good full time job and a top secret security clearance. Correction, he had a security clearance prior to these federal charges. https://www.intellihub.com/douglas-h...opter-program/ Last edited by thallub; February 4, 2018 at 02:11 PM.

February 2, 2018, 11:54 PM	#2
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,467	If he regularly sells at gun shows he probably wouldn't have anything to worry about ... except for that little detail about making armor-piercing ammunition without a license to do so.

February 3, 2018, 08:10 AM	#3
In The Ten Ring Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2018 Posts: 380	Remember guys, reporters usually have little idea of grammar and no idea about anything legal or technical. Was he actually making bullets or just reloading bullets into loaded cartridges? Often times, authorities (even judges) have little idea of laws themselves which leads to long court cases and lawyers making more money. We'll have to see how this plays out.

February 3, 2018, 01:29 PM	#6
xandi Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2015 Location: ga Posts: 321	AP bullets Could be just some ss109 projectiles for all we know

February 3, 2018, 03:15 PM	#8
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Folks,thats why I made no comment on the merits of the case.Its just one article of extremely dubious content written by an ignorant reporter. I don't know the details of the law.I roll and shoot my own.I don't shoot gun show reloads. Its a mob psyche witch hunt that has to burn someone. Golly Gee! Its NOT FAIR!!! I may get triggered and go to my safe space.Play Dough! Now!! Does that matter? He is in jail.Life is going to get tough.He might lose everything and go to prison. For loading ammo and selling it at a gun show. We all make choicesThereare more posting,it seems.I did not open.

February 3, 2018, 04:34 PM	#9
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Hate HuffPo, but scroll down and this link has the 13 page complaint against Haig: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b06ee97af2ae63 ADDING: I see now that there is a link in the OP's article to the complaint also... Serves me right for skimming it the first time...

February 3, 2018, 05:28 PM	#10
In The Ten Ring Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2018 Posts: 380	Fox News just reported he was arrested for selling tracer ammo and then they described what tracer ammo is. No tracer ammo used in the shooting. Mr. Haig did not appear to be in jail. I think the DA is looking for scapegoats to cover up their own terrible handling of the case, evidence, the constantly changing timelines, etc.

February 3, 2018, 07:51 PM	#13
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	From what I've seen and read, I think we have no clue what Mr Haig did. On one hand, they talk about AP ammo and he says he sold the guy tracers....please teach me. Can these ever be the same thing? So then selling without a license becomes the issue. The guy sells at gun shows that are about 1/2 ATF agents in attendance. My guess is he has a license to Mfg ammunition. I'm not sure, but maybe?? Now, how will they ever separate what he sold from the AP ammo, if both were all over the place....heck, I frankly don't buy that any AP ammo was found since ss109 is a "sporting" bullet per current rulings. Can somebody explain to me what 5.56 ammo is AP and currently available? I'm thinking none!

February 4, 2018, 01:08 AM	#14
phil1979 Junior Member Join Date: January 31, 2018 Posts: 8	If this is just a case of paperwork minutia and a witch-hunt just to get somebody for something based on vague and confusing definitions in the law, then I hope somebody on his jury will just nullify the whole thing. "I'm sorry folks, but I just don't think the government proved its case. I'll be glad to discuss and deliberate the facts with y'all for the next six weeks if you want, but I don't anticipate changing my 'not guilty" vote any time soon."

February 4, 2018, 09:41 AM	#15
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	According to the federal agent who wrote up the charges we do have a clue. The reloader's fingerprints were found on the AP rounds. The cartridge cases had tool marks from reloading dies. Scroll down to page six: https://www.scribd.com/document/3706...dium=affiliate

February 4, 2018, 02:10 PM	#20
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	So, somebody with multiple semi-autos was firing on a crowd of 23,000+, from an elevated position, for over ten minutes, and only managed to kill @ 60 people, IIRC. Perhaps if the ammunition had been new, from a factory, the death toll might have been considerably higher, how about that?