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Old January 19, 2017, 08:30 PM   #51
GarandTd
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FITASC, I quoted the part where you insulted my intelligence because that is what I disagreed with. I did make a snarky comment and I shouldn't have. For that I apologize. I'm over it and don't want to sidetrack this thread anymore.

Maverick 88.
Reliable
Multiple configurations
Mechanically identical to an M500, except safety location
Crossbolt safety easier to reach with any stock/pistol grip
Easy to strip with not alot of parts
Lots of aftermarket
Assembled in the USA....Eagle Pass Texas
Low maintenance with composite stock and forend, polymer trigger group and aluminum receiver.
Inexpensive and readily available.
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Old January 19, 2017, 08:54 PM   #52
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When I was looking for a HD shotgun I went went with a Mossberg 500 and used it for many years. I recently picked up a Remington 870 and have thought about giving it a try. Good luck with your decision, just be sure to run the gun to make sure it functions and shoots good and i'm sure what ever you pick will make you happy. Dont count out a good 20ga if you run across one.
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Old January 20, 2017, 05:30 PM   #53
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Hi,

I have this one:

Source of Picture: http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-...e-stock-54301/.

Check as well the round ball discussion for 12 ga or 20 ga in this thread. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...29#post6411229

just buy a 20 ga. Less recoil and it will get you defended.

This particular gun has no flaws whatsoever. But my 12 ga started to not load reliably anymore (is an Mossberg 500 Turkey THUG gun). So the Shell stop and the other Metall arm got exchanged and since then it loads allways.
Mossberg has issues with those 2 steel rods/arms fail to load Shells.
Remington 887 I had once did never have that Problem but it's turning bolt was a pain in the ass and did never work from new on till it got a grind and sanded off since then it worked flawless.
Remingtons are a bit more reliable but the Mossbergs are the nicer guns and better build Quality.

Last edited by TheGuyOfSouthamerica; January 20, 2017 at 05:38 PM.
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Old January 20, 2017, 08:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers
But, in the final analysis, success in home defense is far more about the defender than the weapon.
So, don't forget the training aspect.
This. When folks talk about an HD gun getting low use, they're overlooking something vital, which is that if you're going to rely on a weapon for defense, you need to train, train, train with it until running it under all sorts of conditions is automatic. We're talking about hundreds if not thousands of rounds.

That ain't what I call "low use."

That said, any moderately priced pump shotgun (Mossberg 500, Remington 870, Maverick... whatever) will likely outlast you. If you want to save money, just stay away from the fancy "tacticool" models and get a standard one, or a youth model with a 24" barrel. To save more money, buy a used one.
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Old January 20, 2017, 10:09 PM   #55
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
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I would not know what is there so hard to Train on with an pump shotgun.
100's rounds I can understand but 1000's of rounds for Training is a bit much exagerated since that is costly.

Just fire a box of rounds, know were it shoots and it's effective range and basically you are gotten trained enough.

Last edited by Evan Thomas; January 20, 2017 at 11:43 PM. Reason: removed bad advice.
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Old January 20, 2017, 11:52 PM   #56
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Just fire a box of rounds, know were it shoots and it's effective range and basically you are gotten trained enough
Not quite, Actually, not even close. In the words of Dave McCracken, the late TFL staff member for whom this forum is now named:

Quote:
Quote:
...won't see 1000 rounds...."
Bad idea and bad preparation. There's way more good defensive shotguns out there than good defensive shotgunners.

The shotgun is not A Magic Amulet, shielding one from evil by its mere presence. WE have to become effective to make our shotguns effective.

Go shoot yours. Clays, starlings, landfill rats,steel plates, whatever. Run that round count up until it's a body part and not just a tool you're holding.

Install some wear marks and see how well it responds and how lightning fast it destroys that which you want so.

Mindset, skillset, then toolset.
I can't say it better than that, and no one develops that level of familiarity with a particular gun by firing one box of rounds. If you're serious about defending yourself, then it's your life you're going to be defending, right? How much time and effort is that worth to you? Quite a lot, I hope.
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Old January 21, 2017, 12:35 AM   #57
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I bought a short-barreled H&R Pardner Pump. It's a Chinese copy of the Remington 870, imported by the same company that owns Remington. Cheap and reliable. You will want a limbsaver.
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Old January 21, 2017, 09:34 AM   #58
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It is true what McCracken says.
But maybe it is better just stay to the hardware discussion.

Or had anyone of you ever shot an human person?
I have not.
So in that very moment I would not know if I would pull the trigger.

I do not believe training with the shotgun can overcome the psicological effect not to shoot at an human even if self defense is justified.

So in that light I believe a box of 25 rounds is enough training to rack 'em one in the face if you hear something strange at nigth. If you can pull the trigger then a box of 25 is training enough.
Over here one shot birdshot #5 has killed people.
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Old January 21, 2017, 11:57 AM   #59
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Guy, if you're not sure you could actually shoot someone in self-defense, you shouldn't own guns for that purpose. This is one of the reasons, incidentally, why anyone who plans to use a gun for self-defense needs not only a lot of practice, but practice under stress (such as competition in "run-and-gun" games) and professional training in self-defense tactics. One of the purposes of such training is to expose you to what it might be like to shoot a human being, and also to teach you what counts as self-defense and what doesn't. Based on the following statement, I'd say your understanding of the latter is a bit weak.
Quote:
So in that light I believe a box of 25 rounds is enough training to rack 'em one in the face if you hear something strange at nigth.
This would at best be extremely irresponsible, and at worst could land you in jail for a very long time. One of the most basic concepts here is that you must identify your target.

Also, I'd like everyone to note that expressions like "rack 'em one in the face" don't go over very well here.

As to this not being relevant to the "hardware" discussion, it's very much so. The reason for bringing up the need to practice was to refute the idea that one wouldn't fire a self-defense gun much, so it didn't have to be particularly durable. The point is that the opposite is true.
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Old January 21, 2017, 01:44 PM   #60
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I think we can all agree that reliability is paramount. It isn't something to scoff at, but I feel like we're just spinning our wheels arguing about it. Nobody wants an unreliable firearm for any purpose.
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Old January 21, 2017, 02:02 PM   #61
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
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I am in favour of this 20 ga Mossberg 500 I posted an Picture off.

Shoots fine birdshot and awesome anything else. I lowered just 2 birds from a distance of about 10 to 15 meters with this open choke gun using #1 birdshot.

Seems Mossberg has fixed it's issue with the stop bars.
Using buckshot should you get a hit in an defensive Situation (at 25 meters all #4 Buck hit in an 10" circle) without big Training. Being an pump Action gun further reduces the Need of Training.
Automatics I do not recommend for defensive use since there is a too much variety of ammo. Specially if you prepare your own defensive ammo, as I do, the ONLY way to go is with an pump Action.
Automatic shotguns are way better in quick Shooting but it does you any good if it Fails to load (specially if you make or modify your ammo).

Best Thing of this 20 gauge caliber is it's recoil. It has considerably less recoil than an 12 ga since I have no headaches anymore Shooting an shotgun. Shooting an 12 ga I get headaches; Shooting this 20 gauge no headaches are present. I am about 60 Kg of weight. The gun is actually 3.05 Kg (6.72 lbs).

I recommend this model for smaller People, lighter People, women and elderly/younger People. Don't mess your Body up with an 12 ga gun.

Last edited by TheGuyOfSouthamerica; January 21, 2017 at 02:08 PM.
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Old January 21, 2017, 02:25 PM   #62
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1. if you are unsure about pulling the trigger when your life or the lives around you are in danger - don't get a gun.
2. If you don't practice you won't be effective.
3. knowing your gun, how it handles and all the features requires that you handle it a lot.
Don't get a gun to feel better, get a gun to use it and get good with it.
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Old January 21, 2017, 06:28 PM   #63
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Quote:
Which HD Shotgun?

I'm looking to get a home defense shotgun to keep bedside.



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Old January 22, 2017, 12:37 AM   #64
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I'd like to point out Guy that not all shotguns and loads will pattern 10" in everyone's shotguns, people need to pattern their own ammo in their own gun. I personally use a 12 gauge mossberg with 18.5" barrel and 00 buck. To each their own. Training is important as well, for me personally that means tactical carbine and tactical shotgun courses complete with low light scenarios and awkward shooting positions. Also weapon mounted lights are great HD items to have.
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Old January 22, 2017, 03:28 PM   #65
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Agtman's got it figured out!

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Old January 22, 2017, 03:54 PM   #66
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I've seen pictures of two super short pistol grip double barrel shotguns and now I want a super short pistol grip double barrel shotgun...
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Old January 23, 2017, 03:09 AM   #67
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25 rounds is enough practice with a pump? Bull" I have two shotguns, a double barrel and a pump, with over 30,000 rounds down the double and 10,000 through the pump, and get a kick watching guys miss skeet shots time after time with their pumps; especially doubles and I am the first to admit that it is hard for me to shoot doubles with the pump, since I rarely take it out anymore.

By the way, I would practice shooting double more with the pump, if it was still a primary defense gun, but it is not. For that I have gone to a 9 mm. which is backed up by an 870 pump, and if push comes to shove I haul out the dedicated skeet gun.
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Old January 23, 2017, 07:07 AM   #68
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Shooting skeet with birdshot is not shooting 00 buck.
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Old January 23, 2017, 07:25 AM   #69
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Quote:
It is true what McCracken says.
But maybe it is better just stay to the hardware discussion.

Or had anyone of you ever shot an human person?
I have not.
So in that very moment I would not know if I would pull the trigger.

I do not believe training with the shotgun can overcome the psicological effect not to shoot at an human even if self defense is justified.

So in that light I believe a box of 25 rounds is enough training to rack 'em one in the face if you hear something strange at nigth. If you can pull the trigger then a box of 25 is training enough.
Over here one shot birdshot #5 has killed people.
This advice could get you killed. If you are not familiar with it, chances are you may fumble it during a stress situation.

Do you know the spread pattern at 15 feet?

What is your actual plan of action. If you have to think before you type then you've done it wrong and need to revisit it.

You don't have to constantly train for household defense, but you should practice with your shotgun - both in the abode, and actually firing it sufficient to be familiar with it. This is not difficult-besides shooting clays is some of the most fun you can have with a firearm.

Quote:
Shooting skeet with birdshot is not shooting 00 buck.
This is true. It is however 1) trigger time; 2) unlike most range time shooting at a moving target; and 3) I've found it to be far more difficult to find a location to shoot buckshot at targets vs. shooting clays. One can find clay shoots even in the firearm limited paradises of Britain and Canada. Reality often limits desire.

Last edited by zincwarrior; January 23, 2017 at 07:39 AM.
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Old January 23, 2017, 09:42 AM   #70
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Quote:
Shooting skeet with birdshot is not shooting 00 buck.
No but it'll teach smooth and smooth is fast.

I wouldn't recommend a pump shotgun if you aren't willing to put a 1000 rounds down range.
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Old January 23, 2017, 04:40 PM   #71
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Quote:
This. When folks talk about an HD gun getting low use, they're overlooking something vital, which is that if you're going to rely on a weapon for defense, you need to train, train, train with it until running it under all sorts of conditions is automatic. We're talking about hundreds if not thousands of rounds.

That ain't what I call "low use."
Your defense guns should be getting the most use of any of them.

Consider this too. What is your home defense plan? Are you going to barricade in the bedroom or clear the house? If your going to hunker down in the bedroom with 911 then a shotgun will be fine. Same if you keep one handy in case the back door smashes in.

For clearing though (bad idea) a shotgun can be easily grabbed from you if you're ambushed coming through a door or from behind a piece of furniture. The bad guy is going to be awake and on high alert. He'll probably know you're coming and may plan to ambush you. A pistol may give you a better chance for retention. And put a light on it!
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Old January 25, 2017, 08:07 PM   #72
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Putting a light on a home defense gun does two things;
1. since your eyes are already adjusted to the low light it can hurt your view
and
2. it tells the intruder exactly where you are.

Neither of these things is a good idea. my eyes are accustomed to the light level and I know my home. In order to be bright enough to blind the intruder your light will be too bright for your use.

Practice is necessary for any defensive gun. You should be intimately familiar with whatever gun you choose. That being said, a shotgun takes little time or practice to be good with it. They are harder to accidentally point in the wrong direction and easy to point in the right direction. Shooting a standing intruder is infinitely easier than hitting a four inch disk traveling at 30 mph. At the ranges in a home there will be little spread in the shot pattern whether you are using 00 buck or #9 shot. Both will stop an attacker. The buck shot will easily travel through walls - interior or exterior while #9 shot is unlikely to penetrate an exterior wall. I tested my load in fabricated walls myself to find out what happens. My 1-1/4 ounce load at 1400 fps from a cylinder tube 20" long will penetrate an interior wall but is stopped by a third layer of drywall. That load will not penetrate an exterior wall unless you are extremely close to the wall. It will penetrate 8 inches of water in a devastating display of carnage. (in a Fackler box) 00 buck will easily penetrate two interior and an exterior wall or two exterior and an interior wall. The 00 buck load will penetrate to 15 inches in water and tends to spread out more in the same gun. Slugs will go completely through a house or a car and are a bad choice for home defense in my opinion. I am not saying you should do it my way because it is THE ONLY WAY or that you shouldn't do something completely different. My way is just that, it's the way I do it and no better or worse than any other way for someone else.
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Old January 26, 2017, 08:29 AM   #73
agtman
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Quote:
I've seen pictures of two super short pistol grip double barrel shotguns and now I want a super short pistol grip double barrel shotgun.
Well, here's one that just hit the market. American Rifleman Online did a review and range report this month. Check it out.

Best feature is you do not need to obtain a $200 tax stamp to own it.

.410/.45LC Howdah.


I'd have preferred this in .20ga, but I'm sure that would have complicated matters ...
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Old January 26, 2017, 10:16 AM   #74
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I know its not what you want to hear i'd go with either a Remington 870 or a mossberg 930.
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Old January 26, 2017, 03:29 PM   #75
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The .410 double does not require a tax stamp, but retail pricing on it is $1400!
They ARE neat guns, though.
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