ATF ruling 2010-4: Airsoft toys = firearms??

[GunLink]

ATF says airsoft AR/M-16s are firearms

[Bartholomew Roberts]

More specifically, it says an Airsoft M-16 lower that is similar enough to a real M16/AR15 lower that it will fire when a real AR15 upper is attached to it is a firearm.

ATF does have a lot of crazy rulings; but given the current firearms laws, this has a pretty sound basis to it.

[Edward429451]

I have to disagree and say that no firearms law extant has any sound basis to it whatsoever. This is fundemental thinking.

[dogtown tom]

Edward429451 I have to disagree and say that no firearms law extant has any sound basis to it whatsoever. This is fundemental thinking.

Really?
I think firearms laws prohibiting the sale to or possession of firearms by convicted felons, those adjudicated mentally defective, fugitives, drug addicts and illegal aliens are perfectly sound.

So you think those folks should be able to buy guns?
I sure as hell don't.

[Edward429451]

Simple. If they're not fit to be trusted with a gun then keep them locked up away from society. I have no link or hard numbers, but from what I understand, the largest portion of violent crime is done be repeat offenders. If they kept these guys locked up instead of releasing them back onto the street then crime would go down. We don't need gun laws at all, we need the present laws enforced.

If criminals are fit enough to be released back onto the street then they have paid thier debt and should not be disbarred the use of arms. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slipping him a J frame as he is released...then he shouldn't be released.

[Bud Helms]

There are convicted felons today whose offense was a misdemeanor several years ago. There are also nonviolent felonies just as there are misdemeanors that involve injury to others.

Lumping all felons in with fugitives, drug addicts, illegal aliens and those adjudicated mentally defective may be an over generalization. But it sure makes a good campaign poster.

Let's move this one to Law & Civil Rights.

[NWPilgrim]

I think we managed to live without national gun laws up until 1934. I don't see that the gun laws have prevented anything except to limit law abiding citizens. Teenage gang members seem to find guns pretty easily even though they are prohibited.

Reading and viewing some of the stories of gangsters back in the 1920s and 1930s BEFORE the NFA, it seems they preferred to steal BARs and tommy guns from police and NG armories rather than purchasing them.

Same as sex offenders, if someone is too dangerous to live in society as a free citizen, then why are they out?

I agree that given the current law, if a toy lower receiver can be readily used as a receiver for a centerfire upper then it should be considered a firearm. BUT, I don't trust that the BATFE is accurately representing how easily this toy does this.

I don't trust an agency that would adamantly standby their decision to label a receiver jerry rigged with string and rubber bands a machine gun. Are they coming after my doug fir 2x4s next because they could be "easily modified" into a configuration that could act as a receiver?

[Wildalaska]

Reading and viewing some of the stories of gangsters back in the 1920s and 1930s BEFORE the NFA, it seems they preferred to steal BARs and tommy guns from police and NG armories rather than purchasing them.

Really? Ever hear of Peter Von Frantzius?

Warm Regards

WildinterestingfellowAlaska ™©2002-2010

[hogdogs]

I am also in the boat of NO LAWS about gun ownership etc. is worth a hoot!

And as Bud stated, not all felonies should restrict gun ownership.

For one example... A 2nd offense DUI is a felony in Fla.

And to muddle in the water deeper... You can be found GUILTY WITHOUT HARD EVIDENCE!!!

You blow UNDER the legal limit but can be determined to be "PRESUMABLY DRUNK"

So I don't think too highly of the generalization of FELON=NO GUNS!!!

And the felon can own a 6 shooter of the "antique" BP variety anyway!

Brent

[GunLink]

I agree about the large majority of firearms-related laws making me want to :barf:

As another members touched on, though, I can see how the current revision of gun laws might be able to classify sample #1 as a firearm since the lower receiver is the serial numbered (therefore, the "firearm") part of an AR, and the lower of sample #1 can supposedly be fitted to any AR upper and be a functioning rifle.

I think the story on sample #2 is a little far fetched though. Drilling holes to hold an FCG? Come on. Anyone with a dremel tool can head down to Lowes and get a 2x6 and waller out the middle, drill some holes, drop in an AR or M16 FCG and stick it under an upper and it will go bang.

I think that by drilling the holes, the agent manufactured a firearm. Wonder if he's got an 07 FFL.

[NWPilgrim]

Leave it to Wild to take me literally and come up with one gun dealer who sold to the gangs in CHICAGO. I am shocked! If I tried hard enough I could even come up with an example of a pleasant gun shop. (That is light hearted humor among friends BTW).

This spurious example does not invalidate the point that criminals and crazies can easily get guns whether they are permitted to or not, and that gun laws are overall not effective in reducing crime.

Most of the gangsters back then had already been wiped out before the 1934 NFA was enacted. Thus proving that the solution to crime is to put away criminals, not restrict law abiding citizens.

[gc70]

This is fundemental thinking.

Freudian slip?

Definition of Fundement
2. The part of the body on which one sits; the buttocks.

[Wildalaska]

Leave it to Wild to take me literally and come up with one gun dealer who sold to the gangs in CHICAGO.

That one dealer is probably heart and soul of the reason we have the NFA

Sincerely

WildigotachicagotypewriterforvalentinesdayAlaska ™©2002-2010

[KLRANGL]

To maybe try and get get this thread back on track,

Knowing a good bit about airsoft, I think this ruling is actually quite fair in regards to the current laws regarding firearms. Some of these GBB M4s look exactly like their real steel counterparts.

[GunLink]

Knowing a good bit about airsoft, I think this ruling is actually quite fair in regards to the current laws regarding firearms. Some of these GBB M4s look exactly like their real steel counterparts.

It can look as much or as little like a real firearm as you want, cosmetic features should have no bearing on the determination.

When you have to drill holes, install parts, etc., etc. to get it to fire...it's not a firearm.

With the lower removed, the firing pin on an AR/M16 BCG, although recessed, is exposed. Does this mean that anything one can jam up in there to hit the firing pin hard enough to set off the primer is a "firearm?" Is the thing below a "firearm" because you can hold it under an upper, pull the trigger and make it go bang?



What if you drill holes in ply-wood to mount the FCG in? What if you add a handle?

[GunLink]

Freudian slip?

That wasn't the type of FUNDamental thinking I thought you meant.

I was thinking more revenue generation through fines and higher taxes to FUND all the agents, lawyers, etc. if they decide to push the issue with the hundreds of thousands of these things that are on the market.

[zxcvbob]

I think firearms laws prohibiting the sale to or possession of firearms by convicted felons, those adjudicated mentally defective, fugitives, drug addicts and illegal aliens are perfectly sound.

So you think those folks should be able to buy guns?

Yes, I do (if they are no longer incarcerated.) It wasn't a problem before 1968, so I don't think it's a real problem now.

[44 AMP]

The ATF says a post 1986 manufactured auto sear is a machine gun. All by itself. If they can say (and get away with) that a small oddly shaped piece of metal is, all by itself legally a machine gun, then they can say a toy part (suitably modified) is one also.

They say a lot of crap. Our problem is judges (and worse) juries believe them.

[tyme]

Don't forget that metal tubes and even soda bottles (if attached or intended to be attached to firearms) can qualify as suppressors, which are regulated as NFA items.

Many firearms laws and regs make no sense or are ineffectual, but I don't see a reason why this airsoft ruling is any more arbitrary than previous laws or ATF regs.

Start regulating arbitrary parts of firearms as if they're firearms and it's no surprise we end up with rulings like this.

[SVO]

So if you own one of these airsoft guns, what happens now? Depending on which model one might own, would you be guilty of owning a illegal machinegun?

[MTT TL]

Usually I am pretty skeptical. In this particular case they may be on to something. Some of these guns function with very little modification other than adding the upper, although they are of such poor quality pot metal they would not function for long.

Will it harder to keep bad guys from getting a hold of weapons? Yes it will. No convicted felon without rights restoration can go to a store and legally buy a gun right now. This in my mind is mostly a good thing. We can argue all day about the merits of what constitutes a felony but most are felons for good reasons.

[GunLink]

Don't forget that metal tubes and even soda bottles (if attached or intended to be attached to firearms) can qualify as suppressors, which are regulated as NFA items.

Many firearms laws and regs make no sense or are ineffectual, but I don't see a reason why this airsoft ruling is any more arbitrary than previous laws or ATF regs.

For three years, a shoe string was a machinegun. The fine folks at the BATFE have no interest in logic or reasoning.

So if you own one of these airsoft guns, what happens now? Depending on which model one might own, would you be guilty of owning a illegal machinegun?

AFAIK, the issue is not that the toys are machineguns but, rather, that they are firearms. Repercussions, if any, for the manufacturers (no FFL07) would probably be greatest, followed by the sellers (no FFL01) and, lastly, the buyers. They may try to issue fines; not sure how that would turn out without intent. They may try to confiscate the toys; all XXX thousands of them. They may just say "Well, we really stepped on our dicks here" and drop it. The notice isn't on the "Rulings" section of the ATF site anymore; that's why we've hosted the documents over on GL. I believe they're still in the Google cache also, but I'm not sure how long that stays there.

[divil]

I think they are mistaken:

any weapon...including a starter gun...which will or is designed to or may
readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon...

Notice the author justifies the ruling by quoting the definition of "frame or receiver". But what's the definition of "weapon"? It can hardly include an airsoft gun. That is not a weapon. The way the above text is worded, it has to be a weapon in the first instance. A non-weapon that can be readily converted to a weapon is not covered by this text.

[KLRANGL]

Guys, we aren't talking about shoestrings or soda bottles. I'm no more a fan of arbitrary ATF rules than any of you, but this is pretty much a cut and dry case of someone manufacturing AR lowers and selling them without following firearm law as currently defined.

It can look as much or as little like a real firearm as you want, cosmetic features should have no bearing on the determination.

It has nothing to do with cosmetics...

[44 AMP]

but this is pretty much a cut and dry case of someone manufacturing AR lowers and selling them without following firearm law as currently defined.

No, its not. Its a case of someone manufacturing a realistic toy, which, because somone figured out can be used to make some real firearms parts function, has been declared a firearm in and of itself.

The maker should be going "Oh Holy Crap!" and figuring out what to do for the future, but I see no intent on their part to have made a weapon (in violation of law), only a replica.

What happens now, however, will be, at the least, interesting.