March 28, 2022, 06:40 PM | #1 |
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BATFE update
I received an e-mail today from the NSSF with a caution about a new BATFE letter addressing forced reset triggers. Apparently, not all forced reset triggers are created equal, and some of them may be construed by the BATFE to be machine guns.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/op...-frts/download I considered posting this in the Rifles area, but these triggers can also be installed in those new-fangled "Other" firearms (the ones that sure look like short-barreled rifles pretending to not be short-barreled rifles), so I'm posting it here in the hope of reaching more members. Bottom line: If you have forced reset triggers, or are considering buying one, read the letter carefully.
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March 29, 2022, 04:13 PM | #2 |
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Also got this open letter being an FFL-03 holder in good standing.
So how does the ATF get away with labeling essentially a component as an entire firearm. Set aside the fact that the lower receiver of an AR is the “firearm”, I get that part. It is the serialized part that holds all the other components. But are these FRT’s, as they are being called, serialized?? How do they quantify this argument?? |
March 29, 2022, 04:44 PM | #3 | |
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Personally, I don't know what a forced reset trigger is, or how it works, but according to a Washington Examiner article on MSN, it allows firing more than one round without releasing the trigger. IF so, then that would meed the Fed definition of "machine gun". However, I do have to wonder just how "creative" the definition is...
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March 29, 2022, 05:57 PM | #4 | |
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it takes very little to imagine creative thinking is involved.
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March 29, 2022, 07:16 PM | #5 | |
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March 30, 2022, 10:17 AM | #6 | |
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...Because the trigger must perform 3 (arguably 4) different functions, to reset for each subsequent shot. And, well, that word, "function" is just annoying and counterproductive to their cause. You'll also note that they declare "some" triggers to be illegal NFA items, but not all. And they also do not specify which of them may or may not fall into either category.
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March 30, 2022, 10:46 AM | #7 |
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This is all totally predictable.
People should just quit trying to cheat. I don't get the fascination with automatic weapons anyway. Ammo is scarce and that's just another way to burn it up too fast. |
March 30, 2022, 12:39 PM | #8 | |
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/sarcasm! |
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March 30, 2022, 12:42 PM | #9 |
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Not cheating…working within the law at the time…then the ATF does not like it and redefines was it is. Has happen multiple times in the past and will continue to be that way, prime example, the Franklin Armory Reformation. All fine and dandy until the ATF so, nope it is an SBR…
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March 30, 2022, 02:39 PM | #10 | |
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If it were illegal to have a car that could go over 70 you'd have a valid comparison. So you don't. |
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March 30, 2022, 02:42 PM | #11 | |
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March 30, 2022, 02:51 PM | #12 |
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How is it cheating when you are working/designing within the law? Granted I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but if you (ATF) state that "X" is legal and "X" isn't and I design within both of those parameters then you change both "X"'s...how is that cheating? You (ATF) have moved the goal post...
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March 30, 2022, 02:56 PM | #13 |
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No.
The goal post is no automatic weapons. That's the law. Just because you can slyly design a part to turn a semi auto into full auto doesn't mean you're not breaking the law. You're still breaking that law. But........people keep trying to cheat. |
March 30, 2022, 03:22 PM | #14 |
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Do forced reset triggers turn a semi auto into full auto? Is one part of an actual machine gun, a machine gun?
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March 30, 2022, 04:10 PM | #15 | ||
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You wouldn't have people trying to "cheat" if the BATFE wouldn't continually violate the Peoples' constitutional rights and make up definitions out of thin air after the fact a law abiding citizen already possesses the part/firearm. You wouldn't have people trying to "cheat" if there wasn't over 20,000 useless gun laws in place that violate the rights of citizens. Quote:
Your personal disdain of full auto weapons do not trump citizens' rights to defend themselves as they see fit. You can hide behind whatever garbage laws the BATFE wants to interpret as illegal all you want. And I don't condone breaking laws currently in place. But the fact of the matter is, just because it's the law doesn't mean that's where the goal post is set and the People just have to sit there and take it without legally fighting back against corrupt actions of the government.
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March 30, 2022, 04:39 PM | #16 | |
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Congress wrote the law on this and it turns one whether more than one round is fired with "a single function of the trigger". You don't have to like the law, but it's Congresses job to write our laws, and there it is. That isn't what BATF are purporting to enforce. They've announced that they will enforce their own standard, a single, continuous pull of the trigger. BATF are part of the executive branch and don't properly create law. I agree that people shouldn't try to cheat. That includes the BATF.
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March 30, 2022, 06:08 PM | #17 |
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Awww.......aren't those some interesting excuses?
Hey, if you keep trying to cheat and slyly break the law you WILL regret it. But, you go and have your fun........I guarantee there will be consequences. |
March 30, 2022, 06:13 PM | #18 |
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March 30, 2022, 07:05 PM | #19 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
In the absence of the payment of a federal tax, it's not legal to possess a trigger that fires more than once with a single function of the trigger. It isn't just fully automatic firing that's prohibited, but the mechanism that permits it to happen. That's the factual foundation. The comparison is to motor vehicle laws. If they functioned the same way, there'd be an analogous prohibition of a car geared to exceed more than 70mph with a single function of the accelerator. Let's unpack the point of the comparison as well. We accept possession of a wide range of vehicles that are often very dangerous, but we endeavor to reduce the harm by making harmful acts illegal. Congress doesn't accept unregistered automatic rifles even though they are used almost exclusively by hobbyists as giggle generators. The difference is the point of the comparison, not a flaw in it. HTH.
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March 30, 2022, 07:46 PM | #20 |
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What difference does it make to have a car capable of going over 70 and a law in place you can't drive over 70?
The firearm (car) itself and the capabilities isn't in question. It's the parallel of the firearm/car being legal and the trigger/going over the speed limit. You can parse the words said all you want. Fact is, seanc's comment draws the point of peoples' aversion of auto weapons and being permissive of allowing government overreach clearly violates our constitutional rights. If you don't already see the 20,000+ laws placed against the 2A as a problem, including the BATFE's constant overreach, then I can see why you think everyones' posts here are "excuses".
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March 30, 2022, 08:59 PM | #21 | |||||
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I see a degree of validity in both sides of this argument.
For openers, I believe the Second Amendment means what it says, and that we should be allowed to own (and carry) any firearm we choose, up to and including machine guns. (I also believe that I should be allowed to own a tank, a howitzer, and an F-16 if I could afford them. Since I can't afford them, that's a moot point.) That said, private ownership of machine guns has been heavily restricted and regulated since 1934, and we pretty much all know that private citizens are not allowed to make or buy new ones. The supply is limited to those that already exist. I also believe that laws are meant to be interpreted and applied according to the plain language understanding of what they say. While I don't like the Gun Control Act of 1934, I don't have an overwhelming need or urge to own or shoot a machine gun, so it doesn't affect me. I fully recognize that there are people who can afford to shoot more ammo in a day than I'll shoot in a lifetime, and that those people might like to own machine guns. I think they should be allowed to own them ... but they can't. The sticky wicket arises when people try to parse the language of the laws and/or regulations to create something that IS -- functionally -- indistinguishable from a machine gun while technically not being a machine gun ... maybe. The definition of a "machine gun" in the National Firearms Act of 1934 is: Quote:
Quote:
The problem is that the NFA defined "machine gun," but it didn't define "trigger" or "function." I think the attorneys on this forum will confirm that, in general, when a term is not defined in a law itself, application of the law defers to the ordinary dictionary definition of the term. As applied to firearms, I don't think there's any controversy over what the "trigger" is. But ... what is a "function" of the trigger? The dictionary definition of function (the noun) is: Quote:
Quote:
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So now we have all the "Philadelphia lawyer" type inventors who come up with things like bump stocks, binary triggers, and now forced reset triggers. They all pick their interpretation of what a "single function of the trigger" means, and then they get all butt-hurt if the BATFE doesn't agree with them. The problem is that we're arguing over a term that ISN'T DEFINED in the law. So until the courts tell us what the term means, we're guessing. We're playing with semantics. And when the price of holding the losing hand is a potential felony conviction, frankly it's a game I prefer not to play. If Harry Hobbyist wants to fire up his Harbor Freight mill/drill machine and design a new gizmo that makes an ordinary semi-automatic firearm shoot as fast as a machine gun and that he thinks is within the letter of the law, I have no problem with that. Where I have concerns is when Harry Hobbyist takes his gizmo to Freddy Factory and Freddy starts churning out these gizmos and selling them to the rest of us, assuring us that "they're perfectly legal" because they still only fire one shot with each "function" of the trigger. But "function" has still not been defined by the courts. This is why I consider such efforts to be akin to pulling a tiger's tail. We KNOW the BATFE doesn't want us to own machine guns. It should not be difficult to predict that anything that makes/allows a semi-automatic firearm to shoot as fast as a machine gun is going to awaken the sleeping tiger.
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March 30, 2022, 10:56 PM | #22 | ||||
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Quote:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/wp-co...Statutes-1.pdf Quote:
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March 31, 2022, 07:15 AM | #23 | |
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Welcome to TFL!
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March 31, 2022, 07:21 AM | #24 |
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March 31, 2022, 08:04 AM | #25 | ||||
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You are correct that a normal rule of statutory interpretation requires that terms not specifically defined be given their ordinary meaning. On the other hand, federally we have a doctrine of judicial deference to agencies in where their interpretations are deemed merely "reasonable". If course, you are also correct at a practical level that tangling with people who have the power to ruin your life even if you are innocent of any charge they might bring shouldn't be undertaken casually. Quote:
I set that forth as history and ask whether there is any genuine controversy as to the meaning of function in this context. That a federal agent wished the word meant something else doesn't introduce a real controversy as to meaning. The agent's desire to regulate shouldn't be the basis of his power to regulate. If the term were so vague that one couldn't reasonably foresee which devices to which it applies, then there's a due process issue. Quote:
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A redefinition process that allows government itself to remove a limit on federal authority is a problem not only limited to firearms.
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