Vicious dog and idiot owner

[ammo.crafter]

Off leash large dog attacks my 80 pound lab/pointer mix who was leashed.

Weather was very cold and I had a coat and sweater on as well as gloves. I instantly realized I had to get my gloves off to reach my gun that was in my back pocket and covered by my coat.

I now belt carry either my Hi-Power or Sig.

What do others due in extreme weather?

[Mainah]

I got a 642 and carried in my jacket pocket after I went through the same exact thing with my dog.

[DaleA]

It's none of our business really, but did you have to shoot?

[TunnelRat]

I recently heard someone argue that a dog attacking your dog was one of many reasons to carry OC spray. I’m inclined to agree. We had a similar case in my area a few years ago. The man was charged with endangering those around him because of his decision to shoot, and it wasn’t as if the other party was particularly close. In the end I believe he was cleared of the charges, but he was charged and had to go through the legal process of defending himself in court. For myself, I’ve had many dogs run up on me and my dogs. Only one actually attacked my dogs. The problem for me becomes at what point do I shoot the other dog. I can’t really argue imminent threat of life or serious bodily injury until the other dog actually attacks, at which point I’m discharging a round at a target that is very much moving and practically on top of what I’m trying to defend.

When I walk a dog while carrying a firearm I either use no gloves or thin gloves that I don’t have to take off and can still get in a trigger guard. I also have my coat unzipped and use a layer tucked into my pants. I generally have easy access to the firearm as I don’t pocket carry and the pistol is holstered on my belt. It’s usually as fast as if I wasn’t wearing a coat.

Edit: a few years ago I took a class where an instructor showed us that if you do have to wear layers and need to peel them up to get to the pistol (I think Moonglum makes good points below about choosing your layers) that one tip is to extend your thumb, hook your thumb under the hem of your shirt(s), and move your thumb up your torso like a zipper. It worked surprisingly well.


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[Eddiejoe]

When I lived in the metro area, I carried a pistol and a collapsible baton. I usually had the baton in my hand and the gun holstered.
Since I'm out in the boonies, I just carry the gun, still holstered.

[ghbucky]

Friend of mine dealt with repeated attacks on his old husky when they were out walking from the same dog that the owner refused to restrain. Even to the point where it came into his yard after the dog.

He used bear spray but that also backfired and he got some on him.

He finally got a pepper ball pistol. I guess that worked a charm.

[The Verminator]

I carry a Glock 19 in a pocket holster in a coat pocket.

Non lethal methods suggested here will not even annoy or inconvenience a pit bull bent on attack.

As to when to shoot........it's when the attacker makes contact. He will probably have your dog by the throat.

That may seem too late, but you have to wait for it.

Then place the muzzle on the pit bull's throat and blow it away.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by The Verminator

I carry a Glock 19 in a pocket holster in a coat pocket.

Non lethal methods suggested here will not even annoy or inconvenience a pit bull bent on attack.

As to when to shoot........it's when the attacker makes contact. He will probably have your dog by the throat.

That may seem too late, but you have to wait for it.

Then place the muzzle on the pit bull's throat and blow it away.

If your plan is to casually get your muzzle up against the throat of an attacking pit bull attempting to kill your dog for a contact shot, I think you underestimate the pit bull more than the people suggesting you use non lethal methods.


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[The Verminator]

Once a pit bull has a grip on your dog he's quite distracted.

That's the time to blow him away.

Any sooner and you'll have a problem with the law.

[TunnelRat]

I agree you can’t shoot sooner.

I’ve seen a number of dog fights that had a lot of movement and some that involved my own dog. Not every dog that will attack is a pit bull (in fact I don’t think the OP mentioned a pit bull). In those dynamic situations putting my hand near the biting end of the dog and trying to deliver a contact shot seems like a losing proposition to me. There’s a good chance of me getting bit or of me potentially shooting my own dog. I say this as someone whose wife was a dog trainer dealing with violent dogs for a number of years. She had a number of colleagues get serious wounds trying to put their hands near the biting end during a dog fight. If that happens with a pistol in your hand I could imagine it going badly. It wouldn’t be my choice, to each his own.


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[Moonglum]

I live in Colorado.

I worked for several years as a security guard. I had to be outside in all weather conditions and I had to balance comfort with being able to access things on my Duty Belt.

I watched what the cops did and I copied them. I never saw a cop in a big heavy winter coat unless they were working a traffic accident.

When they were just doing normal patrol duties where they were in and out of the heated car all night they tended to layer up under the uniform and wear a mid weight Fleece as an outer layer.

I NEVER carry my gun in my coat pocket unless I know I'm not going somewhere where I would look out of place with my coat on inside.

I usually dress the way I saw the cops dress,thermal underwear, normal outer layer and a medium Fleece that doesn't look out of place if I wear it inside.

I said all that to say that it's not that difficult to access my gun even in the winter. I wouldn't shoot a dog until I at least tried OC

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by ammo.crafter

I now belt carry either my Hi-Power or Sig.

What do others due in extreme weather?

I don't usually carry in a pocket or IWB. 95% of the time or more I wear a belt holster. In cold weather, I wear an M-65 field jacket, and unless I'm just around my own property I don't use the zipper, I only use the snaps. That makes it easy to open with the left hand while reaching for the pistol with the right hand.

In VERY cold weather I have a surplus field jacket from some European country, heavier and warmer than the M-65. Instead of a zipper, the storm flap is secured with Velcro. Same deal -- bypass the zipper, use the Velcro to close the storm flap, and it's easy to open with one hand.

[TunnelRat]

+1 on the storm flaps. I have a few coats with them and in the past I often ignored them. They work quite well as Aguila outlines.


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[JohnKSa]

Just be very careful. It's one thing to fire a gun in populated areas in defense of human life. The urgent need to defend innocent human life balances (at least to some extent) the risk that a stray bullet generates.

It's another story entirely to shoot to defend a pet (property) and generate such a risk.

[gryphon1911]

I struggled with this for a while and found a good compromise.

I carry now in an M-TAC front side sling bag my Sig P226R. Quick access pull with my left hand, draw with the right.
Gloves, I use are HEAD runners gloves and I place a set of Hot Hands inside the glove itself at the top.

With that being said, I've had instances like the OP and I also carry pepper spray.

I'm a firm believer in "no bad dog, bad owner"....and killing something is always my last resort...so I'll give the dog the benefit of the doubt and engage with pepper spray first.

My usual order of engagement is pepper spray, firearm, knife (if God forbid the gun and backup magazine run dry or if things get hand to hand levels).

This comes from years of experience and I've trained to handle attacking dogs bare handed. Now I do not recommend that unless you've been thoroughly trained, but it is possible.

[The Verminator]

There's a reason I mention pit bulls.......I've been walking dogs for about 35 years and pit bull problems have increased every year.

If it's a serious attack.......there's a 90% chance it will be with a pit bull.

YMMV but that's my experience.

There's also a reason I recommend a contact (or near contact) shot.

I once saw a cop shoot a pit bull. It was coming at him full speed and he lowered his gun to the dog's level, waited until it was about two feet away, and shot it right in the face.

Later I asked him why.

He said, "Them damned things are hard to hit when they're moving so fast and the last thing I need is to miss and send a stray round that ends up God knows where........maybe in somebody's kid or grandma."

He didn't want to take a chance.

[Rob228]

One of the items the dog trainer I go to constantly stresses is that you only know what your dog will do, not anyone else's. For those reasons he avoid public dog parks and places where dogs are known to be off leash. Naturally I ignored that piece of advice right up until my dog got attacked at a dog park.

Luckily it doesn't get too cold here in coastal NC so I don't have to worry about gloves. When I lived in Colorado in the winter I would change from a Glock 19 to a Ruger SP101 that I'd pocket carry, and typically instead of gloves I'd just keep my hands in my coat pockets. Unless its getting really cold I would think a thinner pair of gloves (like Mechanics) would do the trick. I've shot in them before and they are thin enough not to cause any dexterity issues.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by The Verminator

There's also a reason I recommend a contact (or near contact) shot.

I once saw a cop shoot a pit bull. It was coming at him full speed and he lowered his gun to the dog's level, waited until it was about two feet away, and shot it right in the face.

Later I asked him why.

He said, "Them damned things are hard to hit when they're moving so fast and the last thing I need is to miss and send a stray round that ends up God knows where........maybe in somebody's kid or grandma."

He didn't want to take a chance.

I understand why you’re saying to not shoot sooner. I outlined the same concerns before your own comments back at the beginning of the thread. My point isn’t you should shoot sooner.


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[Doc Intrepid]

In cold weather I avoid belt carry.

I dress in layers and the outer layer is a Carhartt-type jacket with a hood. I carry a Sig P229 in a Galco shoulder holster beneath the jacket, which is only zipped up part way. It's pretty easy for me to get my right hand through the open top of the zipper to draw the pistol.

I do carry pepper spray in my right side outer pocket. I am skeptical that it would stop an attacking dog, but I would try it first before pulling a gun. It might not work but would only take seconds to deploy, and if it doesn't work drop the cannister and draw the pistol.

Legally speaking I suspect anyone is better off for having tried to use non-lethal force before resorting to lethal force - and that goes in spades for dealing with the owner of the attacking dog as well.

The stakes can be higher than injury to your own dog...

https://www.foxnews.com/us/californi...-rv-encampment

Your mileage may vary.

[DukeConnor]

I carry pepper spray in addition to a firearm while dog walking. I can't imagine the crap storm if I discharged a firearm in my neighborhood.

[SIGSHR]

A squirt gun filled with ammo is is Ye Olde Standby for vicious dogs. A cane or walking stick jammed down the throat is also very effective.

[Doberman1]

I know the small stun guns are legal. Are cattle prods? I've experimented a couple of times with a stun gun when dogs would run up on me. Just hitting it a time or 2 when they get within 30 yards usually makes them run home. I don't know why. Those particular dogs now avoid me like the plague. But a cattle prod would give you more jolt at a greater distance from the teeth.

[stagpanther]

I have a Malinois--she hates pitbulls and dobermans, we were once attacked by two pits that were off-leash and ON MY property and my girl hit one of the pits so hard knocked it over and locked her jaw around its neck, I feared for the other dog's life--I called her off and was very thankful she released it. They've never been on my property since.

The pits were illegally off leash and "trespassing" on my property. Even so, killing other people's dog(s) is a tricky thing. My dogs I feel the same way about them as if they were my children or family. I always fear if my dog got away into the woods somebody would simply shoot her--most humans have a natural fear reaction to Malinois. I've been attacked many times by other people's dogs while walking mine (on leash, of course) but have always managed to stop an attack with non-lethal means. Might be different with a huge killer type dog but killing a dog would be--just like with a human--an absolute last resort for me.

[JustJake]

Dogs running at large are legal to shoot in my state, let alone attacking my dog or my livestock, if doing so on my property.

Just chute the frickin’ dog!

If you’re goosey about “consequences,” ... bury the carcass in your backyard and pop the top on a cold one.

You can thank me later.

[4V50 Gary]

Train to draw with gloves on and with heavy winter clothing on. We did as popo people.

Might want to carry pepper spray too.

Finally, an old woman taught me this. If the aggressor dog has a collar, grab the collar, twist 180 and lift off the ground such that the forepaws don't touch terra firma. It chokes the dog and it'll release the victim dog. She did this to get a pitt bull off another dog.