"No good answer" hypothetical road block

[HiBC]

I'm not asking for permission to run anyone over or shoot anyone.
I know my best option is to avoid the situation.

I've seen footage of people standing against the hood/bumper at the front of a car in traffic. Thats where the driver's attention will be.

At the same time.another hijack "team" member stabs the tires.deflating them.

As another"team" member starts bashing windows with a skateboard,or bricks,or a hammer.

This is not my wild imagination. This stuff happens. Right here in USA.

If this happened in the Middle East,in Mexico,,etc,it would be part of a hijacking,robbery,murder,or kidnapping.

And every violent technique to bust an ambush would be the appropriate response to survive.

Today,a local official advised he had heard there was to be a pro-law enforcement rally someplace local.

He had also been advised there would be a counter demonstration.

He advised everyone has a right to freedom of expression,but violence or destruction would not be tolerated.

OK,I'm simply going to avoid the whole thing.

But even so,the unexpectd can happen.

I'm not too worried about it,it only brings home that it CAN happen here.

If I'm in the vehicle,I AM in mortal fear for my life.

Realistically,the prosecutor might say my little inconvenience at having to stop momentarily for peaceful protestor does not justify aggravated vehicular assault

Similarly,I probably can't justify deadly force against the property crime of stabbing some 10 year old tires.

And what is the property value of the glass in a 35 year old pickup?

How do I prove the intent of a group of young peaceful protestors?

Real life is out there,folks. What do we do?

[TXAZ]

You SURVIVE!

I lived in the Middle East during the mid 90' where all types of things were going on from a state and personal security perspective.
I took courses from US Dept. of State on 'what do you do when'. Bottom line was you do what you have to do, whether it's a machine gun attack, Molotov Cocktail attack, grenade attack, ...
There are techniques that work for many of these, but none always work.
The question is, do you want to take a chance with an unruly but organized crowd, or get the heck out of Dodge by any means and methods?

I'll continue to take the latter, prefering to be judged by 12 vs. carried by 6.

(P.S. Fishtailing out of a crowd tends to clear the way ahead of you )

[Dfariswheel]

It's your word against the mob, IF they even show up at a trial.

If you have a cell phone USE IT.
Cell phones can do video so as soon as things start looking iffy start videoing.
Have it up where it can capture the mob blocking you and have the sound up high to capture the threats.

That way if you get charged you'll have real evidence of how threatened you were.

Of course this is based on whether you survive to get to a trial, so to avoid a Reginal Denny do what you have to to get out alive and unharmed.
THEN you can at least fight it out in the legal system.
Even if convicted you'll still be alive.

[TunnelRat]

You can drive on inflated tires. Tires also don’t explosively decompress. Rubber tends to seal itself up fairly well. I’ve shot tires and watched them barely leak, at least handgun calibers.


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[HiBC]

Just to clarify, I agree "survive" is the correct answer, What that may entail is precisely the same solution that might be appropriate in other dangerous countries.

Those might include any driving and shooting techniques taught to diplomat body guards.
The idea that "The Phone" is the answer...Maybe you have not observed the video of people who are having this happen. The police respnd "Sorry,can't help.you are on your own"
And I'll agree,the video has value, but I might have my hands,eyes,and mind busy with other things.

Nothing matters much if I get beaten to death.

In the fantasy land of what might SEEM like a good idea at the time, a John Wicks solution might be agreeable among my peers...but somehow I don;t think those peers would make up my jury.

Between law enforcement hands being tied,apparent public attitude,and the political nature of" "justice"

It seems the expectation is we just submit to the rage of them mob Relax and enjoy it.

And,FWIW, I'm not mentioning race at all beause I believe BLM is Marxism exploiting race.

One reasonably useful skill I have is cranking the wheel to le left and yanking the emergency brake,snapping a 180 deg turn,then putting the hammer down. Or,run away the way I came from.

[Sharkbite]

There was another thread titled something along the lines of “Who drives”. Maybe check that thread out.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Know your state laws. In some states, the castle doctrine presumption extends to your vehicle and a person smashing your windows or attempting to forcibly enter your vehicle creates a presumption that you have a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury.

At the same time, understand the people driving these protests want nothing more than to see a bunch of their supporters shot dead. And if it gets to that point, you’re likely to get McCloskey’ed without the benefit of being a wealthy plaintiff’s lawyer.

[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

...understand the people driving these protests want nothing more than to see a bunch of their supporters shot dead. ...

I'd say that's being pretty direct about it.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It is sad but true. There’s a 99% chance if you see that kind of violence you are being videoed by multiple people who think you deserve to be drug out of your car and beaten. That video will be broadcast in almost real time and they won’t be shy about outright lying to frame the perception of the video.

First and foremost, it is an information war. That’s the strategic objective that drives the tactics that caused you to be assaulted.

[HiBC]

All that occurs to me. Folks like Soros play chess while most folks see checkers.

Generally I (like most people ) have enough real problems in this moment that its silly to spend energy on fears that may never occur.

I'm not losing sleep over this.

But sometimes its good to ponder "What would I do if....?"

Its better to have some idea instead of starting from scratch.

Maybe hooking some kind of Super Blaster MSD racing ignition coil to my truck body would help...but most tennis shoes would insulate the buggars from ground...

[HiBC]

You can drive on inflated tires. Tires also don’t explosively decompress. Rubber tends to seal itself up fairly well. I’ve shot tires and watched them barely leak, at least handgun calibers.

I agree a tire might seal after a bullet. But a knife through the sidewall is a "whoosh" deflate

I busted tires seven years.

[TunnelRat]

Interesting. Regardless, you can still drive on them. Maybe not well, but in that situation it’s better than the alternative.


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[Bartholomew Roberts]

I will say some anti-roadblock training I did in 2004 was significant in making me think “You know what’s better than using a pistol to fight my way to a rifle? An SBR.”

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

I will say some anti-roadblock training I did in 2004 was significant in making me think “You know what’s better than using a pistol to fight my way to a rifle? An SBR.”

That seems to assume you can mount or store the SBR in some way that is accessible to you as the driver (as getting to the trunk doesn’t seem very feasible in the scenario posted by the OP). I’m not sure how practical that might be (car crashes or car theft are certainly far more common than the scenario described here and I wouldn’t want an unsecured firearm in either case) or the legal implications of such a thing (I’m unsure if this differs from a pistol and different localities have restrictions on vehicle travel with firearms).


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[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, in my updated version of that drill, I just jam a 9” .300 BLK AR muzzle down in the space between the seat and the console. I don’t know it would hold in an airbag deployment; but it stays pretty secure and it is easy and even convenient to access since the grip is in the same position but a bit higher than a holstered pistol.

That’s probably dependent on the vehicle and it isn’t a viable storage solution at all; but if you are loaded up and traveling, I think it is viable.

ETA: I should also note that the scenario was based on the more common third-world scenario where a roadblock is used as a prelude to extortion/robbery by military or paramilitary troops and not around public disorder/riots.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the strategic goals of the rioters is to reinforce the narrative that America is a horrible place where innocent people are murdered by the powerful for no good reason. Having an SBR jammed between your console and seat might get you more attention rather than discouraging it, since you might be perceived to be easily provoked into that narrative.

[5whiskey]

See in busting the window of your vehicle you occupy, the person isn’t just committing a simple property crime. It is a breaking and entering. After all the carnage we’ve witnessed does anyone reasonably suppose that they will bust your glass out and then move on? Or that you have no basis to fear for your safety at that point? NO! They’re busting that glass to get to you!

I know you are aware that the best policy is avoidance. I get that, but just to hit on avoidance a little bit because my wife had this same question a couple of weeks ago and it took a while for things to soak in. She had to go to the city and she wanted to know if it would be best to drive my truck because it is larger and would easier to drive through certain conditions (curbs, ditch, people... her emphasis was more people). I spent a great deal of time explaining to her that she needed to drive the vehicle that is easiest for her to maneuver in case she needs to merge and turn off quickly to avoid something like that. I explained route recon to not get stuck at major intersections that would be high likely places for protestors to shut down. We covered paying attention a half mile down the road and not just the car in front, and if it looks even remotely like traffic is stopped for an unusual reason to turn off. Look before making a turn, and make it slowly so you can abort if needed. It’s defensive driving for 2020 .

Still, it is possible to do all this right and get caught up in the scenario. Trying to do all of this, however, and trying to escape if at all possible, will likely be a very critical part of your defense if you do have to use force. Part of defensive driving is trying to approach intersections with stop lights, if possible, by leaving escape routes. If you have to run the light, oh well. The right lane may be best, as you have two options; strait or right. If I see them wielding implements that could bust a window, they probably should not stand in front of my escape route for their own safety and I’ll leave it at that. If I’m boxed in by traffic, I will have a firearm. I’m not going to just get beat to death, and I have no intentions of going fistacuffs with a mob wielding implements that can break windows. Depending on where you live, to survive may mean to get charged and tried in today’s environment. I don’t want that, but I would choose survival. No questions asked if family is with me. My response would likely be much more forceful much earlier on if I’m protecting my wife and daughters.

My personal threshold is that if the mob approaches me and I have good reason to believe they can bust my windows or deflate my tires, they will see the muzzle of a firearm if I cannot escape. If they continue to approach and make an overt move to break my window, force will be escalated. This, of course, is last ditch and I’m boxed in with no possible escape.

[5whiskey]

It is sad but true. There’s a 99% chance if you see that kind of violence you are being videoed by multiple people who think you deserve to be drug out of your car and beaten. That video will be broadcast in almost real time and they won’t be shy about outright lying to frame the perception of the video.

First and foremost, it is an information war. That’s the strategic objective that drives the tactics that caused you to be assaulted.

Unfortunately this is a very true statement.

[Bill DeShivs]

If you never slow below 10 MPH, they will have to get out of your way. If one gets on your car, speed up once you have cleared the roadblock. Apply brakes smartly.

[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

If you never slow below 10 MPH, they will have to get out of your way.
...

With all due respect, I don’t believe that to be true. We’ve seen people that will jump or lay down in front of your car to ensure you suffer the slings and arrows of the ambush you’ve driven into.

Now you have to decide who is going to get hurt. The Department of State had a very simple answer...

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The thing is, if you get caught in that situation, and you successfully drive your way out/shoot your way out, you are going to be pursued directly. Protesters will show up at your home. People will try to get you fired from your job. People will try to get your family fired from their jobs for being related to you.

Socially, we’ve exalted victimhood to the point where someone who refuses to be a victim is clearly an oppressor.

[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

The thing is, if you get caught in that situation, and you successfully drive your way out/shoot your way out, you are going to be pursued directly. Protesters will show up at your home. People will try to get you fired from your job. People will try to get your family fired from their jobs for being related to you.

Socially, we’ve exalted victimhood to the point where someone who refuses to be a victim is clearly an oppressor.

Absolutely true, it’s the “best worst choice”.
I’d prefer to take my chance dealing with the police, protective custody or indictment in this country.
Overseas it’s just get out of the country.

[HiBC]

I have a paratrooper clone M1 Carbine.
I also have a "Multi" AR reciever NIB. Thinking about a 300 blackout pistol.
Someplace between 8 in and 10 in.
Realistically,for my purposes,I'm not 100% sure the 300 Blackout advantage justifies the investment.

I drive an old Toyota Pickup,so compact is good. I suppose,to a degree,the old solid axle 4wd Toyota has pretty good off road capability. I could drive around a lot.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, the vehicle I referred to was a 2006 4Runner, so the good news is the space between the console and seat holds a short AR well.

The .300 BLK is going to produce more energy from a 9” barrel than the M1 carbine does from a 16” barrel. And it will have less drop at longer distances as well. Like all of life, it is a trade off.

Is the juice worth the squeeze for you? Hard to say without more detail.

[JohnKSa]

No good answer just about covers it.

Just because a problem can be easily stated doesn't mean there's a good solution.

The only answer is that if you let yourself get into that kind of a no-win situation, you do what you feel like you absolutely must do to do to survive with the understanding that if you end up shooting someone or driving over someone to get away, your life as you knew it is probably over.

The real lesson is that the only way to win is to not get into that kind of a situation in the first place.

Pay attention to what's going on. Look around--don't zone out and "wake up" in a riot. Use news resources. Use common sense. Once you're in the middle of things, getting out is tricky. Staying out of it is a lot easier. If you have to drive over a curb or drive on the median, or bump into something or knock something over to get away, do it. If you have to drive down a one way street or make an illegal u turn or back up for a couple of blocks, do it. Take advantage of your vehicle's capabilities as required. If you have to use up your car to stay out of a riot, it's a worthwhile trade.

[HiBC]

Well said