Stainless vs Black Steel

[L. Boscoe]

This for the metallurgists in the crowd. A semi auto pistol slides a lot. I have a vague memory of stainless being more likely to wear, and in bearings, gall, i.e. roughen its surface after long hard use.
Is that the case in pistols? Will a stainless slide wear out faster than a carbon steel? They are using 4140 black steel these days, ASFAIK, not sure but probably 400 series stainless.

[Jim Watson]

There will be an occasional report of galling but they mostly have that beaten with different alloys, different heat treat, and a little more clearance on stainless guns.
Thinking through the inventory, I don't have an all-stainless automatic.

[Bill DeShivs]

It's not an issue in modern guns. In older guns, using the same alloy for frames and slides could cause galling issues. All it takes is a little grease to overcome those issues, BTW.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by L. Boscoe

This for the metallurgists in the crowd. A semi auto pistol slides a lot. I have a vague memory of stainless being more likely to wear, and in bearings, gall, i.e. roughen its surface after long hard use.
Is that the case in pistols? Will a stainless slide wear out faster than a carbon steel? They are using 4140 black steel these days, ASFAIK, not sure but probably 400 series stainless.

Stainless galling only becomes a problem at extreme heat and pressure. If a semi auto handgun even remotely lubbed properly can make enough of either then something other than the alloy is out of whack.

[Jim Watson]

This was not an uncommon report in early days of stainless automatics.
One gunzine writer even had a Colt throw up wire edges on the rails that he stoned off, and the Hardballers were infamous. There is a current brand that gets some reports, too.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

This was not an uncommon report in early days of stainless automatics.
One gunzine writer even had a Colt throw up wire edges on the rails that he stoned off, and the Hardballers were infamous. There is a current brand that gets some reports, too.

I am talking about modern stainless. The old hardballers will run forever with good lube. The lubes used back in their early days were more rust preventatives than efficient lubricants. The early stainless had way too much nickel in it. From my experience, the proper stainless alloys for firearms are low nickel and will rust rather quickly if bead blasted or returned to raw finish.

[wild cat mccane]

Stainless is superior in guns today. Sorry, that was an over generalization.

I mean to say, stainless is superior in every way*.

*when not nitrided

Recall, even the Sig P226 issues were the alloy rails were ruined, not the stainless slide.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Stainless is superior in guns today. Sorry, that was an over generalization.

I mean to say, stainless is superior in every way*.

*when not nitrided

Recall, even the Sig P226 issues were the alloy rails were ruined, not the stainless slide.

I don't remember Sig 226 issues. German or United States production?

[wild cat mccane]

Everything you ever wanted to know about Sig owners fear of stainless slides eating up the anodoized cover of their alloy frames (both the current and the German Sigs when they were sprinkled with magical dust from yesteryears and stainless frames too)

https://grayguns.com/guide-to-sig-sa...ol-inspection/


A point of reference in all this, a stainless slide is somewhat typical. A stainless barrel is somewhat not typical. Non SS carbon barrels contact the stainless slide at lugs (recall this is where Peter modified Browning designs get almost all lock up/contact--not the muzzle or rails), aft of muzzle (smiley wear), and barrel hood. None of that causes anything but contact wear.

Design issues are more important to me than metal type. P226 torques hard on the under rail, 92 hits the block hard (gen3 lock block now?), CZ includes multiple take down levers in the Tactical Sport because they break/Shadow breaks frames, old design tanfoglio broke slides but doesn't break frames in Stock II or III, etc.

In the end, nitride penetrating metal treatment/hardening makes all thinks somewhat equal in form for a user for whatever you can measure as "better" experience. ie, whatever is "better" about another steel doesn't matter much after nitride on carbon steel.

I think that nitride makes carbon equal in qualities to ss is the answer to the OP question. Once nitrided, the carbon steel lost the carbon steel properties all around on the outside--no benefit any longer. And nitrided stainless somewhat or entirely removes the benefits of stainless.

A non nitrided carbon steel might have a person's opinion of being better, but bluing alone just isn't worth exterior rusting worries.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Everything you ever wanted to know about Sig owners fear of stainless slides eating up the anodoized cover of their alloy frames (both the current and the German Sigs when they were sprinkled with magical dust from yesteryears and stainless frames too)

https://grayguns.com/guide-to-sig-sa...ol-inspection/


A point of reference in all this, a stainless slide is somewhat typical. A stainless barrel is somewhat not typical. Non SS carbon barrels contact the stainless slide at lugs (recall this is where Peter modified Browning designs get almost all lock up/contact--not the muzzle or rails), aft of muzzle (smiley wear), and barrel hood. None of that causes anything but contact wear.

Design issues are more important to me than metal type. P226 torques hard on the under rail, 92 hits the block hard, CZ includes multiple take down levers in the Sport because they break/Shadow breaks frames, old design tanfoglio broke slides, etc.

In the end, nitride penetrating metal treatment/hardening makes all thinks somewhat equal in form for a user for whatever you can measure as "better" experience. ie, whatever is "better" about another steel doesn't matter much after nitride on carbon steel.

I think that nitride makes carbon equal in qualities to ss is the answer to the OP question. Once nitrided, the carbon steel lost the carbon steel properties all around on the outside--no benefit any longer. And nitrided stainless somewhat or entirely removes the benefits of stainless.

A non nitrided carbon steel might have a person's opinion of being better, but bluing alone just isn't worth exterior rusting worries.

Good info on the Sig 226.
Now you got me wondering about the CZ Shadow. Mine has been ridden hard and put up wet for at least 40k rounds. Only maintenance was spring kits. Granted, that is mostly loads that just barely make power factor, if shooting in shoots that check, and not making power factor in shoots that don't check.
You making me question all my favorite pistols.

[wild cat mccane]

You already may have the crack on your Shadow. Power level and weight appear to have zero impact on it happening. CZ made a cut to the Shadow slide in 2018 to cover up the crap but it doesn't relieve the crack stress. Tactical Sport 2 got a new frame, so have to wait to hear how often they are busting their take down pins.

Check Brian Enos thread on it. Those guys seem to be more critical without playing favorite to a brand. They go pretty hard at CZ for the slide cut to cover up the crack while not solving the issue. It for sure has given me pause on getting the Shadow 2. There area a few threads on it, but a good start: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/2...w-cuts-inside/

What is interesting in this discussion is slides typically aren't the problem regardless of make, design, or metal type. To me, I think that kinda shows it's a bit more philosophical about steel vs stainless steel being better. So if someone says carbon steel lends to more accuracy or is more durable...I don't doubt it. But I am not sure it practically matters.

Now nitride/tenifer/melonite? Ferritic Nitrocarburizing that's where I get interested in reading up on all the info.

[L. Boscoe]

Great stuff: The posts above seem to agree with what my gunsmith says, to lube the hell out of your gun, especially if you are getting it hot. He was state champ, and said his 1911's were dripping in competition.
The guys at Cajun say grease the slide, and sell a tiny cup of grease for just that. Mine wear a lot of it.

[wild cat mccane]

I think specific to the P226 given it torques the underside (most people online complain about matting wear on the top) of the anodized aluminum rails pretty darn good and pretty well documented as fact. When you see rail failures on the P226, it's the underside that rips up. That said, probably good for other alloy grips.

I'm less hot on grease for polymer guns where the metal rails are nitride on nitride or ss/ss.

That's my opinion, but the Grey Guns is probably the author on the P226.

[chadio]

Wanna shoot my gun?

I hope you have napkins...

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by L. Boscoe

Great stuff: The posts above seem to agree with what my gunsmith says, to lube the hell out of your gun, especially if you are getting it hot. He was state champ, and said his 1911's were dripping in competition.
The guys at Cajun say grease the slide, and sell a tiny cup of grease for just that. Mine wear a lot of it.

I agree for range shooting. For carry, minimalistic on lube has huge merits.