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Old October 23, 2020, 06:52 PM   #1
Japle
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.450 Marlin Bolt Action


At the range today, trying out loads for my .450 Marlin.
This is a rifle for which I have no real use, but I wanted to have it, just because. You know how it is.
Why a bolt action in .450 Marlin, you might ask? You can buy them in lever action all day. But I’ve never really liked lever actions, plus the action is weak, only rated for 42-43,000 psi, whereas a modern bolt action is good for another 20,000 psi.
I started with a T/C Venture bolt action in .300WSM, because the bolt face would fit the .450 rim. I sent it to E.R. Shaw for an 18” medium-heavy spiral-fluted barrel. This was planned as a close-range woods rifle, so the short barrel seemed reasonable. I wanted a pretty heavy barrel, because this thing was going to generate a good bit of recoil.
When I got it back, I spent a few happy hours hogging out the barrel channel in the stock to fit the much larger tube. I mounted a Vortex Crossfire 3-9X50IR scope and started playing with loads.
In the Hornady manual, the difference between 45/70 loads for the Marlin lever gun and the loads for the same cartridge in a Ruger #1 is 15-17%. The manual strongly cautions against firing the Ruger loads in a lever gun and explains exactly why. Since there are no commercially-available bolt-action rifles available in .450 Marlin, I will not quote my loads, except to say they’re somewhat beyond what you’ll see in loading manuals.
If I really wanted to push things, I suspect that I could achieve within 175fps of the .458 Win mag with the Hornady 350 gr bullet, assuming the same barrel length. I’m not going to push things that far, but getting a tad over 2200fps (200fps over what the Hornady manual shows) was no problem.
Recoil is impressive, but not painful at all. I fired 9 loads – 5 rounds each - for accuracy and velocity and felt just fine afterwards. I’m sure I’ll be sore tomorrow, but no big deal.
Now, if I can win that NRA contest for the moose hunt …. https://www.amazon.com/photos/all/ga...Tey7RNhsahHCkw
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Old October 23, 2020, 09:09 PM   #2
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I'd imagine 45-70 load data for single shots and bolt guns would be a pretty good place to start. IIRC that data shows 45-70 in those rifles at around 200 fps slower than 458 with similar bullet weights.
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Old October 24, 2020, 08:40 AM   #3
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JMR, very true.
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Old October 24, 2020, 09:13 AM   #4
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Just shot 25x 45-70 "marlin grade" loads yesterday--happy shoulder pounding!
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Old October 24, 2020, 09:16 AM   #5
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The 450 Marlin was inspired by a wildcat made by Frank Barnes called the 458x2, which was a 458 Win Mag cut down to two inches. It was designed for use in a bolt action woods rifle. And so it comes full circle.

Given that it's a woods rifle, you've got too much scope. A hundred yards is a long shot in the woods and 3x is too much magnification for close fast shots. A 1.5x4 or similar will serve you far better.
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Old October 24, 2020, 01:13 PM   #6
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"...I wanted to have it..." "I want one!" is a reason. It's the best reason too. The question is, "Why not?"
The .450 Marlin is just a rimless .45-70. Since the TC comes in 7mm Mag(runs at 65,000 PSI Max), I suspect you'd be OK using "modern rifle" data. Hodgdon says their "modern rifle" data is good for Siamese Mauser bolt actions too.
A Ruger #1 can be loaded to 'close to' .458 Win Mag velocities with no fuss.
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Old October 24, 2020, 08:14 PM   #7
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The .450 Marlin is not "just a rimless 45-70". Close, but loading data isn't interchangeable.

I chose that particular scope because of the 50mm objective and the illuminated reticle in low-light situations. In a close-range hunting situation, I doubt I'd crank it beyond 3X, but you never know.
Also, it was sitting on the shelf, collecting dust.
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Old October 25, 2020, 09:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Japle View Post
The .450 Marlin is not "just a rimless 45-70". Close, but loading data isn't interchangeable.

I chose that particular scope because of the 50mm objective and the illuminated reticle in low-light situations. In a close-range hunting situation, I doubt I'd crank it beyond 3X, but you never know.
Also, it was sitting on the shelf, collecting dust.
The 50mm objective isn't going to be a bit brighter than a 40 at 3x. For close fast shots, even 3x is too much. You'll end up with a scope full of fur, unable to tell where on the animal you're aiming.
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Old October 26, 2020, 09:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
For close fast shots, even 3x is too much. You'll end up with a scope full of fur, unable to tell where on the animal you're aiming.
You have to be pretty close for 3x to be too much magnification. Last year I shot an elk at 35 yards with my scope on 4x. I could see plenty of animal to know exactly which one I was shooting, and where. Using a rifle, I have no intentions of shooting at moving game. And I haven't had issues with alignment at close ranges with 3 or 4 power scopes.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a 3x on the 450 woods gun. Just for giggles, you could put a target up that is approximately 20 inches square and see how close you have to be to not have plenty of dirt showing on either side. If it is set on 9x you will have trouble at closer ranges.
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Old October 27, 2020, 07:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
The 50mm objective isn't going to be a bit brighter than a 40 at 3x. For close fast shots, even 3x is too much. You'll end up with a scope full of fur, unable to tell where on the animal you're aiming.
Nonsense. I shot a hog at 30 yds with this setup with the scope set to 5X and could see the entire hog - all 252 lbs of him - just fine.
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Old October 27, 2020, 10:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by big al hunter View Post
You have to be pretty close for 3x to be too much magnification. .... Just for giggles, you could put a target up that is approximately 20 inches square and see how close you have to be to not have plenty of dirt showing on either side. If it is set on 9x you will have trouble at closer ranges.

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Nonsense. I shot a hog at 30 yds with this setup with the scope set to 5X and could see the entire hog - all 252 lbs of him - just fine.
You're both right; I misspoke. The problem of only seeing fur happens at much higher magnifications than 3x.

The problem at 3x is finding the animal. You shoulder the rifle and you see a 3x bush. Which bush is it? So you have to hunt around to correlate what you see in the scope with where the animal is. While you're doing that the animal moves behind a tree.

This process is a lot easier with 2x or less. So while it's possible to woods hunt with a 3x scope, it's far from ideal.
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Old October 27, 2020, 01:03 PM   #12
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You're welcome to your opinion, its not wrong, for you, but not necessarily right for someone else.

I've hunted the northern Adirondack deer woods with iron sights, 1,5x, 2.5x, 3x
and 4x Post/crosswire scopes (old Weavers) and 3-9x variable (crosshairs), and found no appreciable difference in speed or field of view (for me) until you get to 4x and above.

For me, the fastest thing to use was the Post scope. 2.5x-3x I can't tell the difference without reading the marking on the tube.

Someone else will have a different opinion...
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Old October 28, 2020, 12:09 AM   #13
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drifting but........

We've kinda drifted from the cartridge discusssion, but I will comment on the scope issue. I agree that the OP has the wrong scope, but not because of its power range. What I object too is the massive honkin' 50mm bell, which is to heavy for a "woods gun" and will necessarily set to high above the bore for a useful cheek weld (for me anyhow) on a gun that will be used fast and close. I don't see 3x as too much magnification for woods use either, heck, for years, I shot a fixed 4x with no trouble. In fact, I run several fixed 6x36mm rigs, and I still do not have trouble with too much scope. I gained interest in fixed 6x when I kept finding that my 3-9x were typically set on 6X and left there for most all my shooting except the range. When I hear the "fur only" comments, I wonder if those folks are shouldering the rifle properly and using both eyes to get on target. We've even shot at low thrown clay birds (2-3' high, big berm down range) with 4x scoped .22's and got on target quick enough to hit........well a few anyhow.

I run a 1.5-5x scope on my turkey SHOTGUN and often as not it's set on 3X for gobblers coming to call, under 50 yds and certainly "in the woods". Truth is, I rarely use the lower settings(1X, 1.5X, 2X, 2.5X) on all my small variables, and rarely if ever use 3x on the 3-9x's.
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Old October 28, 2020, 12:17 AM   #14
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Oh yeah.........

To try and get us back on track, quite a few years ago, I clipped an article, I think from the "Rifleman" concerning a wildcat cartridge named the ".44 Alpen". As I recall, the fella took a .300 Win mag case, (not sure) trimmed it aft of the shoulder, and seated .44 cal slugs in a custom seating die. He opened the bolt face on a Mauser 98 action, (I think) and screwed a fast twist short tube on, along with a funky California style stock, popular in the day. The guy was quite pleased with his creation, and depending on load, deemed it suitable medicine for game from PA to AK, hence the name.
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Old October 28, 2020, 01:19 AM   #15
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ok, back on track, or closer, anyway...

The .450 Marlin might have been "inspired" by the .458x2" I don't know. Marlin's "official" reason the .450 has a belt was so that it would not fit in a .45-70 chamber.

Quote:
Recoil is impressive, but not painful at all. I fired 9 loads – 5 rounds each - for accuracy and velocity and felt just fine afterwards. I’m sure I’ll be sore tomorrow, but no big deal.
To be clear, you're talking about the recoil of a 350gr @ 2200fps-ish??

How heavy is your rifle, and what kind of pad (if any) does it have??
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Old October 28, 2020, 09:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
The .450 Marlin might have been "inspired" by the .458x2" I don't know. Marlin's "official" reason the .450 has a belt was so that it would not fit in a .45-70 chamber.
The 450 Marlin is within a few thousands of the 458x2 in just about every dimension, except one - Marlin made the belt taller so that it won't fit in a standard magnum chamber. It's short enough that it could otherwise fit and trying to fire one from, say, a 7mm Mag would be a problem.
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Old October 28, 2020, 07:02 PM   #17
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44AMP:
My loads were all with the Hornady 350gr FP and ran between 2046 and 2211 fps.
I kept the original T-C stock with the barrel channel opened up to float the barrel. The recoil pad is original and does an impressive job. The stock is pretty damn ugly in my opinion, but I haven’t found a nicer one without paying custom prices.
I don’t know what the rifle weighs, because I don’t have a scale in the house. It’s not light, that’s for damn sure.
Someone mentioned the weight of the scope. It’s heavy, which isn’t a bad thing considering the recoil. It’s too big and could get snagged in heavy brush and tree branches. I agree with that. If I ever get to hunt in those conditions, I’ll change it, but the scope was sitting on the shelf and it does the job for now.
I’m primarily a hog hunter. Shooting from a blind, I use a rifle, but for chasing hogs through the thick stuff, I pack a .44 Mag Desert Eagle or my .44 AutoMag.
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Old October 28, 2020, 08:29 PM   #18
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I was curious because I have a Ruger No.3 and a load that pushes the Hornady 350gr to 2200fps, and the recoil is not something to be ignored. My guess would be your rig is at least a couple pounds heavier than mine and that does make a difference.

And, since you brought it up, now I'm curious in a different way, what Auto Mag do you have??
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Old October 29, 2020, 08:51 AM   #19
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44AMP:
I have a TDE AutoMag that seems to have been thrown together in the last half-hour of the last Friday of production. My guess is, the original owner tried to shoot it with a box of crappy CDM Mexican ammo that was loaded way too light to function in any AutoMag. This pistol was so full of tool marks and burrs that no ammo would have worked. When I got it, it came with a 50-round box of CDM ammo with 41 unfired rounds. He probably got 9 jams, gave up and went home.
I used to do a lot of work on these guns in the late 70s and early 80s when Kent Lamont, Lee Jurras and I were doing most of the tuning jobs. I dug out my notes, got the gun smoothed and polished and worked up loads with 180, 240 and 265 gr bullets. Now, it’s running 100%.
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Old October 29, 2020, 01:46 PM   #20
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Thank you. I'm always interested in hearing the experiences of other Auto Mag owners. I'd love to discuss this in detail but that's something for another thread.

More in line with this thread, I'll make one recommendation, for shooting 350gr @2200fps, even with your heavier rifle, I'd recommend NOT shooting those loads from a prone position.

ever...

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Old October 29, 2020, 03:31 PM   #21
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Oh, yeah! I used a set of jacked-up bags and shot from a high sitting position. 40 years ago, a guy conned me into shooting his .375H&H from low bench-rest position. Real bad idea!
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Old November 9, 2020, 07:07 PM   #22
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Got around to weighing the .450 Marlin.
It's 9 lbs without the sling. That's more than the Marlin 1895 45-70 lever action by a good bit, especially if you're the one packing it through rough country. On the other hand, I'm shooting significantly hotter ammo that the lever gun will handle (READ: More Recoil), so the extra weight isn't a bad thing.
Since I'm going to be 75 years old in February and have no intention of humping this sucker more than a few miles at most, I'm happy to live with it.

Last edited by Japle; November 9, 2020 at 07:12 PM.
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Old November 10, 2020, 12:21 PM   #23
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For a while I hunted with a 458 Win Mag (shooting medium power 350 grain loads). It did a number on a deer and a pig, but eventually I got tired of lugging around a rifle heavy enough to handle full power 458 loads, so I switched to something lighter.
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Old November 10, 2020, 06:08 PM   #24
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Gotta love the 450 Marlin! I used a bolt action I had built with a Ruger 77 action and Shilen barrel to take a nice kudu in Namibia. The Marlin accounted for a few moose when I was still living in Alaska. I gave the BLR to my son when I left there last year and he plans to use it next moose season. Maybe I'll pull out one of them and tag along with him.

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