Resizing .45 ACP with .45 Colt die? - Page 2

TruthTellers · May 18, 2020, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

I think already said but it seemed not to soak in...
ACP is .472" at the mouth, LC is .480".
That much less tension will put you at risk of bullet pull by recoil.

Sounds like something worth testing to see which is better then. I think I may just get the set for ACP and see what difference the ACP and Colt sizers have.

Real Gun · May 18, 2020, 09:12 AM

My 45 Colt sizers, Lyman and RCBS Cowboy, were sizing slightly smaller than the 45 ACP by Redding. The 45 Colt by Hornady was the largest and about the same as the 45 ACP by Redding. I use the Hornady with lead bullets (in 45 Colt) to relieve some of the bullet printing through the case, as if the sizing and expanding were out of sync. The problem with 45 ACP is always that if using lead bullets the common die set is too tight. A mix of best-of-breed dies is needed to really get it right and have rounds consistently passing gauging.

MSD Mike · May 18, 2020, 10:56 AM

"Sounds like something worth testing to see which is better then."

I promise you the 45 ACP die is better for 45 ACP than the 45 Colt die. No testing is needed.
With Properly loaded 45 ACP ammo (Using 45 ACP dies) you wont have any issues at all with bullet pull in a revolver designed to shoot 45 ACP. And your ammo will work in any 45ACP revolver or semi-auto. 45 Colt die's might be made to work buts its really just using the wrong tool for the job.

Mike

Real Gun · May 18, 2020, 11:57 AM

Quote:

I promise you the 45 ACP die is better for 45 ACP than the 45 Colt die. No testing is needed.
With Properly loaded 45 ACP ammo (Using 45 ACP dies) you wont have any issues at all with bullet pull in a revolver designed to shoot 45 ACP. And your ammo will work in any 45ACP revolver or semi-auto. 45 Colt die's might be made to work buts its really just using the wrong tool for the job.

Mike

But you don't actually know.

MSD Mike · May 18, 2020, 12:20 PM

"But you don't actually know"

Got me there. I just went and resized 45 ACP cases with a 45 ACP and a 45 Colt die and I cant measure any appreciable difference at the case mouth or the base of the case. Based on that I guess I have to say go for it.

Mike

Real Gun · May 18, 2020, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD Mike

"But you don't actually know"

Got me there. I just went and resized 45 ACP cases with a 45 ACP and a 45 Colt die and I cant measure any appreciable difference at the case mouth or the base of the case. Based on that I guess I have to say go for it.

Mike

That surprised me too. The fella's on to something, even if there is barely a point to it.

TruthTellers · September 4, 2020, 01:38 AM

I got a set of Lee .45 ACP dies and just tried sizing .45 ACP cases with the ACP sizing die and a .45 Colt die I have. I did a few cases in each die and .45 ACP was coming out at .468 almost the entire case until down by the base just above the extractor groove it measure .470, then with the .45 Colt die I was getting .470 from mouth to groove.

So, the dies I have, the .45 Colt sizing cases a bit larger, but probably not enough to be an issue with neck tension, but that's not going to matter for me as I'm going to be roll crimping the bullets for use in my Redhawk. The larger diameter probably won't make a big difference in velocity, but the less the case has to expand to seal the chamber, the more pressure that goes into propelling the bullet.

Now I'm going to have to find some bullets to load as all my .45 bullets are 250gr and I don't want to be using them in .45 ACP.

**44 AMP** · September 4, 2020, 01:15 PM

The reason this sort of works is a combination of design tolerances lining up just right enough. When it does.

Sizer dies are all made to size the brass below max tolerance. Some might even go below min spec, the idea is smaller always fits in the bigger hole.

HOW MUCH smaller than the spec is what determines if your .45 Colt die will do a good enough job with ACP brass.

The (max) dimensions for the ACP case are .473" at the mouth, .476" at the base.

.45 Colt is .480" at the mouth, .480" at the base.

YOUR .45 Colt sizer die might be small enough to do an adequate job with ACP brass, obviously some people have some that will.

However, I think just assuming it will, or that all of them will, is a mistake.

mkl · September 4, 2020, 05:45 PM

I agree with those who recommend a set of dies made for the caliber one wishes to reload.

As OBW (oh by the way) I dislike the carbide dies as opposed to the "old fashioned" steel dies in most cases. The steel dies will give a resized case the appropriate dimensions which include the correct case taper if necessary; carbide will resize to only one dimension (no taper). Before you buy a set of "easy" carbide dies, be sure the case you are resizing has no or very little taper.

USSR · September 4, 2020, 06:26 PM

Quote:

As OBW (oh by the way) I dislike the carbide dies as opposed to the "old fashioned" steel dies in most cases. The steel dies will give a resized case the appropriate dimensions which include the correct case taper if necessary; carbide will resize to only one dimension (no taper). Before you buy a set of "easy" carbide dies, be sure the case you are resizing has no or very little taper.

Really important for the .45 Colt.

Don

mkl · September 4, 2020, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Really important for the .45 Colt.

Don't be snarky...

I said

Quote:

Before you buy a set of "easy" carbide dies, be sure the case you are resizing has no or very little taper.

There are a lot of new reloaders that do not know the difference between steel and carbide as far as ultimate case dimensions are concerned.

Granted, the .45 Colt is one of the few that does not have a taper on the case. Many, if not most, handgun cartiges do have a taper.

USSR · September 4, 2020, 08:01 PM

Wasn't being snarky, but dead serious. Check SAAMI's website for the dimensions of .45 Colt brass and chambers. While the brass is a straight case, the chambers have a slight taper. So, after you fire a "straight" .45 Colt case, it comes out of the cylinder with a slight taper. So, why make it back into a straight case with a carbide die, when you can use a steel RCBS die that has the slight taper built into it? Sold my .45 Colt carbide die set and got a set of steel RCBS dies - never been happier.

Don

TruthTellers · September 4, 2020, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkl

Don't be snarky...

I said

There are a lot of new reloaders that do not know the difference between steel and carbide as far as ultimate case dimensions are concerned.

Granted, the .45 Colt is one of the few that does not have a taper on the case. Many, if not most, handgun cartiges do have a taper.

The only handgun calibers I know of that have a taper (that are not bottlenecks) and aren't super uncommon are 9mm, .45 ACP (very slight taper), and .50 AE. On paper 10mm has a very slight taper of .002", but in the real world sizing all the way to the groove without a taper would not be an issue.

But, I agree to some extent depending on the cartridge you should try to stay as close to spec tapers as possible. I know there are carbide .30 Carbine dies out there and I was thinking about possibly getting an M1 and loading for .30 Carbine, but then I'd have no taper and with that long-ish case I'd like some taper.

If I'm gonna be stuck dealing with lubing cases to size them on steel dies, I'd probably be better off doing .350 Legend instead of .30 Carbine.

**44 AMP** · September 5, 2020, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Check SAAMI's website for the dimensions of .45 Colt brass and chambers. While the brass is a straight case, the chambers have a slight taper. So, after you fire a "straight" .45 Colt case, it comes out of the cylinder with a slight taper. So, why make it back into a straight case with a carbide die, when you can use a steel RCBS die that has the slight taper built into it?

Thank you for ending 37+ years of blissful ignorance about SAAMI chamber specs....

However, this information spurs some new questions...

Why is there a taper? DO steel dies size with the taper or do they just size straight? OR does it differ from brand to brand of die? And...does it matter??

mkl · September 5, 2020, 11:56 AM

Quote:

TruthTellers wrote:
The only handgun calibers I know of that have a taper (that are not bottlenecks) and aren't super uncommon are 9mm, .45 ACP (very slight taper), and .50 AE

If you take a look at SAAMI Z299.3 2015 I think you will find that over one half of the handgun cartridges have some taper. To add to your list: 380 automatic, 40 S&W, 400 cor-bon, 41 rem mag, 44 rem mag, 44 S&W Special, etc...

To USSR
My apologies re my snarky coment.
I had no idea the chamber of the 45 Colt had a taper while the cartridge did not. Thanks for the learning.

USSR · September 5, 2020, 03:35 PM

Quote:

To USSR
My apologies re my snarky coment.
I had no idea the chamber of the 45 Colt had a taper while the cartridge did not. Thanks for the learning.

No problem, mkl. What tuned me into it was the wasp-shaped cartridges that were being produced using my carbide die set. That has pretty much gone away with the change to steel dies. Can't say if all steel .45 Colt sizing dies have the built-in taper, but the RCBS steel dies seem to.

Don

**44 AMP** · September 5, 2020, 04:35 PM

Ok, so if the chamber is spec'd with a larger section at the rear, creating a taper on the fired brass, WHY ISN'T the case spec'd to be tapered??

The "straight case" revolver rounds are just that, .38 Spl. .357Mag, .41Mag, .44 Spl, .44Mag, and .45 Colt are all the same diameter from mouth to rim.

Hornady (for one example and only because it was the closest book) shows only one dimension for all those rounds.

Tapered cases, like the .45ACP show two dimensions, case mouth (.473") and case head (.476"), which leads me to believe those folks think straight cases are straight, not tapered.

The thought occurs to me, if the chamber is larger at the rear, why? Could it be to help prevent cases from sticking?

IF that is the case, then by not sizing your brass back "straight" aren't you defeating the purpose???

USSR · September 5, 2020, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Ok, so if the chamber is spec'd with a larger section at the rear, creating a taper on the fired brass, WHY ISN'T the case spec'd to be tapered??

Quote:

The thought occurs to me, if the chamber is larger at the rear, why?

You're asking the wrong guy, 44_AMP, I just react to the situation as it is.

Don

big al hunter · September 5, 2020, 09:32 PM

Quote:

.
The thought occurs to me, if the chamber is larger at the rear, why? Could it be to help prevent cases from sticking?

IF that is the case, then by not sizing your brass back "straight" aren't you defeating the purpose?

The case expands to fill the chamber completely when fired. After the pressure subsides the brass relaxes a little. If the case is loosing it's elasticity due to too much pressure or the cases are work hardened they don't relax the same. If this happens, the taper in the chamber allows the case to release after the initial push of the extractor. If it was not tapered the case would be hard to remove as it would stick the entire length of the chamber.

I use tapered ties for concrete forming. It is the same principal. If the ties are not tapered they will not come out of the concrete no matter how big my hammer is. With a taper tie I can knock them loose with a 4 lb hammer. The ties are tapered from 1" to 1 1/4" in 3 feet.

rodfac · September 6, 2020, 08:43 PM

Quote:

USSR: What tuned me into it was the wasp-shaped cartridges that were being produced using my carbide die set. That has pretty much gone away with the change to steel dies. Can't say if all steel .45 Colt sizing dies have the built-in taper, but the RCBS steel dies seem to.

Like AMP, I've lingered in "blissful ignorance" for 50+ years! But here's a question...do you lube your brass as is universally recommended, prior to sizing with the steel dies? For the shorter ones, .32 Long, .30 Luger etc., I've never bothered and have never stuck a case. Just wondering here in print vs. going down to the shop and digging out a 1960 vintage set of steel Lyman .45 Colt dies if they're still there and not hopelessly rusted up.

Wonder too, if the neck thickness would make up for the difference in sizing die diameters. .45 ACP having thicker necks than .45 Colt, or am I remembering .45 Colt brass from 30-40 years ago? Eye-balling it, it appears to be thicker.

At most, and even with carbide dies, I've found that a VERY Light wiff of spray-on lube seems to help with some that shouldn't need it...9mm Luger in Redding dies comes to mind.

But with some of the old 310 Tong tool sizers, I had to lube every case, regardless of caliber, and carefully allowing me to open the pliers type handles without inducing a hernia. Why I bothered to do that with a perfectly usable set of presses, dies, and bench tools down stairs is open to discussion but I've found it to be satisfying to sometimes harken back to a simpler time...see how the really old timers did it, and then to savor the results that are every bit as good.

Just some musing here...YMMv Rod

USSR · September 7, 2020, 07:16 AM

Hi Rod,

Yeah, definitely lube the cases when using a steel die. I use my home-made lanolin/alcohol spray-on lube, so not a time consuming or awkward process at all. Agree with you that a spray-on lube such as One Stuck helps when used with carbide dies - only thing it's really good for. Can't help you with using a .45 Colt die for .45 ACP, as I use the appropriate die for each cartridge. So, yeah, dig out that old .45 Colt steel die and give it a try.

Don

**Aguila Blanca** · September 7, 2020, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodfac

At most, and even with carbide dies, I've found that a VERY Light wiff of spray-on lube seems to help with some that shouldn't need it...9mm Luger in Redding dies comes to mind.

Loading for handgun, I use carbide sizing dies for everything. I always use Hornady One Shot aerosol case lube, and it definitely makes a difference. The effort required to pull the handle is noticeably lower when the cases have been lubed.

rodfac · September 7, 2020, 10:00 AM

Thx...I'm partial to Dillon spray for the easy ones (handgun), and Imperial Sizing for those that aren't, rifle primarily. If memory serves, the only steel dies I have left, moldering somewhere in my cluttered shop are . 45 Colt and .30 Luger. All the rest are carbide and I don't bother to lube those.

Best Regards, Rod

USSR · September 7, 2020, 12:10 PM

Quote:

somewhere in my cluttered shop

Ha, know exactly where you are coming from.

Don

TruthTellers · September 19, 2020, 03:06 AM

I loaded up about 50 rds of .45 ACP using the .45 Colt size die and used a 200gr .452 lead bullet that I charged with 9.5gr of Blue Dot and used a firm roll crimp. They shot a lot better than off the shelf .45 ACP ammo has for me. Only thing I noticed was a lot of the Blue Dot remained unburned, so I'm gonna try a magnum primer next time or I'm going to switch to Unique.

Bottom line is it looks like I can get a lot better accuracy with .45 ACP in my Redhawk and that's nice.

May 18, 2020, 09:12 AM	#27
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	My 45 Colt sizers, Lyman and RCBS Cowboy, were sizing slightly smaller than the 45 ACP by Redding. The 45 Colt by Hornady was the largest and about the same as the 45 ACP by Redding. I use the Hornady with lead bullets (in 45 Colt) to relieve some of the bullet printing through the case, as if the sizing and expanding were out of sync. The problem with 45 ACP is always that if using lead bullets the common die set is too tight. A mix of best-of-breed dies is needed to really get it right and have rounds consistently passing gauging. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter.

September 4, 2020, 01:38 AM	#32
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,887	I got a set of Lee .45 ACP dies and just tried sizing .45 ACP cases with the ACP sizing die and a .45 Colt die I have. I did a few cases in each die and .45 ACP was coming out at .468 almost the entire case until down by the base just above the extractor groove it measure .470, then with the .45 Colt die I was getting .470 from mouth to groove. So, the dies I have, the .45 Colt sizing cases a bit larger, but probably not enough to be an issue with neck tension, but that's not going to matter for me as I'm going to be roll crimping the bullets for use in my Redhawk. The larger diameter probably won't make a big difference in velocity, but the less the case has to expand to seal the chamber, the more pressure that goes into propelling the bullet. Now I'm going to have to find some bullets to load as all my .45 bullets are 250gr and I don't want to be using them in .45 ACP. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

September 4, 2020, 01:15 PM	#33
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	sizing acp in colt die The reason this sort of works is a combination of design tolerances lining up just right enough. When it does. Sizer dies are all made to size the brass below max tolerance. Some might even go below min spec, the idea is smaller always fits in the bigger hole. HOW MUCH smaller than the spec is what determines if your .45 Colt die will do a good enough job with ACP brass. The (max) dimensions for the ACP case are .473" at the mouth, .476" at the base. .45 Colt is .480" at the mouth, .480" at the base. YOUR .45 Colt sizer die might be small enough to do an adequate job with ACP brass, obviously some people have some that will. However, I think just assuming it will, or that all of them will, is a mistake. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 4, 2020, 08:01 PM	#37
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	Wasn't being snarky, but dead serious. Check SAAMI's website for the dimensions of .45 Colt brass and chambers. While the brass is a straight case, the chambers have a slight taper. So, after you fire a "straight" .45 Colt case, it comes out of the cylinder with a slight taper. So, why make it back into a straight case with a carbide die, when you can use a steel RCBS die that has the slight taper built into it? Sold my .45 Colt carbide die set and got a set of steel RCBS dies - never been happier. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

September 5, 2020, 04:35 PM	#42
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Ok, so if the chamber is spec'd with a larger section at the rear, creating a taper on the fired brass, WHY ISN'T the case spec'd to be tapered?? The "straight case" revolver rounds are just that, .38 Spl. .357Mag, .41Mag, .44 Spl, .44Mag, and .45 Colt are all the same diameter from mouth to rim. Hornady (for one example and only because it was the closest book) shows only one dimension for all those rounds. Tapered cases, like the .45ACP show two dimensions, case mouth (.473") and case head (.476"), which leads me to believe those folks think straight cases are straight, not tapered. The thought occurs to me, if the chamber is larger at the rear, why? Could it be to help prevent cases from sticking? IF that is the case, then by not sizing your brass back "straight" aren't you defeating the purpose??? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 18, 2020, 10:56 AM	#28
MSD Mike Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2009 Posts: 212	"Sounds like something worth testing to see which is better then." I promise you the 45 ACP die is better for 45 ACP than the 45 Colt die. No testing is needed. With Properly loaded 45 ACP ammo (Using 45 ACP dies) you wont have any issues at all with bullet pull in a revolver designed to shoot 45 ACP. And your ammo will work in any 45ACP revolver or semi-auto. 45 Colt die's might be made to work buts its really just using the wrong tool for the job. Mike

May 18, 2020, 12:20 PM	#30
MSD Mike Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2009 Posts: 212	"But you don't actually know" Got me there. I just went and resized 45 ACP cases with a 45 ACP and a 45 Colt die and I cant measure any appreciable difference at the case mouth or the base of the case. Based on that I guess I have to say go for it. Mike

September 4, 2020, 05:45 PM	#34
mkl Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Location: DFW area, Texas Posts: 494	I agree with those who recommend a set of dies made for the caliber one wishes to reload. As OBW (oh by the way) I dislike the carbide dies as opposed to the "old fashioned" steel dies in most cases. The steel dies will give a resized case the appropriate dimensions which include the correct case taper if necessary; carbide will resize to only one dimension (no taper). Before you buy a set of "easy" carbide dies, be sure the case you are resizing has no or very little taper.

September 7, 2020, 07:16 AM	#46
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	Hi Rod, Yeah, definitely lube the cases when using a steel die. I use my home-made lanolin/alcohol spray-on lube, so not a time consuming or awkward process at all. Agree with you that a spray-on lube such as One Stuck helps when used with carbide dies - only thing it's really good for. Can't help you with using a .45 Colt die for .45 ACP, as I use the appropriate die for each cartridge. So, yeah, dig out that old .45 Colt steel die and give it a try. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

September 7, 2020, 10:00 AM	#48
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	Thx...I'm partial to Dillon spray for the easy ones (handgun), and Imperial Sizing for those that aren't, rifle primarily. If memory serves, the only steel dies I have left, moldering somewhere in my cluttered shop are . 45 Colt and .30 Luger. All the rest are carbide and I don't bother to lube those. Best Regards, Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; September 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM.

September 19, 2020, 03:06 AM	#50
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,887	I loaded up about 50 rds of .45 ACP using the .45 Colt size die and used a 200gr .452 lead bullet that I charged with 9.5gr of Blue Dot and used a firm roll crimp. They shot a lot better than off the shelf .45 ACP ammo has for me. Only thing I noticed was a lot of the Blue Dot remained unburned, so I'm gonna try a magnum primer next time or I'm going to switch to Unique. Bottom line is it looks like I can get a lot better accuracy with .45 ACP in my Redhawk and that's nice. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."