Shooting and Moving Practice-- In your house

[hso]

Skyguy,

One question: Did your training include moving, reactive, shoot/no shoot and various bladed targets.......and more importantly, did you train in low light, darkness?

That's actually 6 questions and having read your posts in this thread it's painfully obvious to any idiot that your question is a trap.

Since I'm not just any idiot I'll answer .

No.

From my perspective that's some of the material for the next level to be given. If I spent this weekend learning the skills presented and I'm a good boy and practice so that I'm ready for the next class picking up those skills you listed should come too.

BTW - I've repeatedly trained with Simunitions against others in a dark shoot house and having had the basics under ITFTS I do believe it's possible to use ITFT to teach people to do what you suggest in a second level 2-day course.

Please remember that my buddy who can't see the front sights and can't see the holes in the target clearly still made COM hits while falling.

[Skyguy]

That's actually 6 questions and having read your posts in this thread it's painfully obvious to any idiot that your question is a trap.

Sorry if I offended you. You just seemed so eager to talk about your training that I thought I could get more details about Quick Kill training.

Since targets are such an integral part of training and most gun encounters occur in low light and darkness, I needed to ask.

From my perspective that's some of the material for the next level to be given.

There ya go. I didn't even know that there was a next level of Quick Kill training or that it uses the bladed, moving targets, etc and trains in low light/darkness.
Does that level cost $400 too?

Thanks for the heads up.
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[hso]

Skyguy,

I'm not offended if you're not. I understand you're an advocate of lasers and it seems like you make your living off of training to them (at least in part). I'm just a guy who has taken some classes. So I'm not interested in the promotional games trainers get into.

I think the laser has a role in self defense shooting just like point shooting does and just like aimed shooting does. I'm just not one of those people that think there's only one universal right technique that can be applied to all situations. Where trainers make their mistakes and end up looking like jackasses to the guys who pay them is in trying to convince everyone that they have the one true faith that must be followed.

I've never trained with lasers. I have trained in aimed fire and I've now trained in point shooting. I think each does something that is best in certain applications. At ranges out to 15 to 21 feet I bet a good student trained in point shooting will put effective holes in the target quicker than either the aimed or laser student. I put holes on paper as fast as I could draw and point and I stake no claims at being a good student. At ranges from 21 to 30 feet I bet there will be a crossover point that the laser student will start to match and begin to beat the point shooting student for groups on time. I did fine all the way out to 24 to 27 feet. Beyond 30 feet I'd bet the laser student gets better groups just as fast as the point shooting student and the laser and aimed fire student begin their cross over with laser at some point soon after that. Each technique probably has it's "sweet spot" where it excells for each individual. The numbers I used are just estimations and would vary for each individual, but I bet an honest student that put the equivalent effort into each would see similar relationships.

Point shooting and laser aiming and aimed fire are all just tools that we can learn. The differences between laser and point shooting are probably very small when put into practice by someone trained in each (I guess I need to find a laser course to take now that I've said that so at least I'll know ). Where laser would depart significantly from point shooting would be around that 30 ft. point. Aimed fire is pretty different from either, but I know point shooting compliments it and I bet laser does as well (and I bet they all compliment each other).

What I liked about the ITFTS training is that it was never touted as a replacement for using the sights. It augemented defensive handgun shooting and used point shooting where it was strongest and didn't try to compete where sights were a stronger technique. That makes a good training system to me.

Like I said, I'm just an average schmo that took the ITFTS course this weekend in Knoxville that's had some other training. I was told that the next level contained a bunch of stuff we didn't do that included some of what Skyguy wants to see done. I've done shoot house and FOF in shoot house and FOF in shoot house in low/no light with simunitions and all the things we've talked about and I hope the next level of ITFTS includes that, but I just don't know for sure. But I'll ask.

[Sweatnbullets]

Where are these classes offered and how much do they run? They sound pretty interesting. I'm sure moving affects a bad guy's ability to hit me, but if I can hit him while I am on the move, that would be a very valuable skill.

Hello Stephen, I am located in Vegas, brownie is located in Phoenix, 7677 is located in Ohio, and Steve2267 is located in Denver. We can also come to you if you get a group together.

The dynamic movement aspect of the course is what I brought to the party, so if that is what you are interested in......VEGAS BABY!

The group courses run $400 and the private courses are a bit higher.

[Sweatnbullets]

Sorry guys, I do not even read skyguys posts anymore. He has had it in for all of us Threat Focused guys for some time now. He has sent us a number of PM's stating how much fun he has "baiting" us in an effort to destroy our business. Positive AAR's like these send him back to his baiting ways everytime.

"Here fishy fishy"

He is a non-entity to us and someone that will continue to harass us as long as he is allowed to.

Sooooo, how about if we get back on topic. For the guys that took the time to read "Shooting To Live" found here.http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf

Here is a little something to go along with your new FAS PSing skills.

Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Threat focus shooting is something that is best done without thinking about it. It is a technique that is best shown, then done. That is the truth of the matter, but because of this it is often seen as some sort of parlor trick or worse, something that is not accurate or dependable. I would like to take an approach to this that I have not seen before. That approach being, to try to break down why threat focus shooting actually works. By breaking it down to it's "bare bones" we could take some of the mystique away.

There are many elements that go into accurate threat focused shooting and by knowing exactly what those elements are we will see that we are actually using a very well developed aiming system. By knowing that it is a well developed aiming system, the confidence in the technique will soar and when the time comes that you need it, it will be there like a trusted friend.

First lets look at the elements of sighted fire.

(1)Kinesthetic alignment

(2)Sight alignment

(3)Sight picture

This is a very simple and highly effective form of sighting in. But it is also something that is, in the most part, done on a conscious level.


Now let us look at the elements of threat focus shooting.

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline or as 7677 calls it, the nose index.

(6) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(7) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(8) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

(9) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(10) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

When broken down into it's elements it hardly looks mystical anymore. It seems to be a highly developed aiming system. Another thing to take into consideration is that almost all of this is done on a subconscious level. These are elements that you do not have to think about. That is why threat focused shooting is best done without thinking about it. Once you know the elements, trained with the elements, it all comes together in a micro second with zero conscious thought. This is why threat focused shooting excels in dynamic confrontations. It is a natural human response.

******************************************************************************

There is a lot of misconception out there that threat focused shooting and especially FAS, is stance or position dependent. This is just not the case. "Shooting to Live" and "Bullseyes don't Shooot Back" cover the basics of threat focus shooting, nothing more.

The basics elements are as follows,

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(6) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

The advanced elements take threat focus shooting to a whole other level, this is where you begin to make hits from any position, from any angle, with no conscious thought.

(1) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline, or what 7677 calls, your nose index.

(2) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(3) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(4) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

The tenth element (absolute confidence) is the key and the ultimate goal. You can never reach your full potential until you a firm grasps of the basic elements and an absolute understanding of the advanced elements.

[Skyguy]

I think the laser has a role in self defense shooting just like point shooting does and just like aimed shooting does.

First off, I never mentioned lasers, you did.

But, for the record, I've always said here that it's point shooting out to about 20 ft, laser out to about 50ft and sights past that. It's a combination....a system.

I tout Lasergrips because they work and are indeed an immediate tactical advantage. You simply superimpose the laser on the threat.
That's 'real' Threat Focused shooting and it's very accurate.

Many master trainers use them for training and recommend them for defense/carry. They are superior to any sight system for old or weak eyes, in low light, darkness, indoors, from over/under/around cover and from awkward positions. That's just fact.
The master trainers teach all that. They're champion shooters and military/LE trainers like Jim Cirillo, Ernie Langdon, Ken Hackathorn, Mas Ayoob, Tod Jarret, et al. Ever heard of those guys?

I often explain that a deviation of 1/4" at the barrel either up, down or sideways is a massive 16" deviation @ 20ft. A mere 1/8" deviation is an 8" deviation at 20 ft....enough to wing a stationary target, but usually a complete miss of the com. Ponder that.
Throw in movement, the semi-reality of moving, bladed, shoot/no-shoot targets, etc and you'd better be a damn good shot.
With a laser you just place the dot and you 'will' hit that spot. Accuracy rules.

Learn here:
Laser Training and Defense Technique Video.....http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv
Master Trainers Video.....http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

Ask your next instructor if he'd be willing to go up against a trained laser equipped bad guy in low light or darkness.
His answer will tell you a lot. :)

Well, they'll probably lock this thread now, but just maybe one more person will have gotten the message that could save his life.
.

[hso]

First off, I never mentioned lasers, you did.

Uh, and Crimson Trace and laser sights that you've been touting uses red fairies, I suppose. You can't honestly not understand that the little red light comes from a laser since 7 of your replys were promoting laser sights or Crimson Trace in particular?

Now I am insulted, at least my intelligence is. You can play your sophomore debate games with other trainers all you want, but I was decent enough to answer your questions as someone who'd taken the course and you shift from word games to lying.



Buh by, Skytroll.

[Skyguy]

My sincere apologies to you, hso. I never meant to offend your sensibilities or your intelligence.
You are exactly right, I did mention Lasergrips and laser sighting in other posts. But, I did not consciously lie.

I suppose I was caught up in our 'immediate' conversation about your satisfaction from Quick Kill training and my curiousity about the actual training technique, targets, etc. That stuff is never mentioned in the marketing.
I did learn though, that there are more advanced levels to that system....and more to learn.

I'm equally sorry that you chose not to respond to the actual gist of my post which contained some very valuable information, videos and testimonials from world class 'master' trainers....... and chose only to respond to my bad.

Finally, I don't want to debate the merits of so many of the commercialized self defense businesses here. It's like debating the merits of the various martial arts. It goes nowhere.
All I ever say is that I do judo. :))
.

[riverrat66]

I agree with Sweatnbullets when he said that this was a very informative thread and it is rare that we see so much agreement on the "fundamentals" of shooting on the move. BUT it seems to have gotten sidetracked because of the "one-up-man-ship" and "I just gotta have the last word" by some individuals and that takes all the fun out of even reading the damn thread. Too much bickering because someone is just too damn stubborn to admit that maybe there is more then one way to skin a cat spoils it for everyone. Why must everyone insist that their way is the only way? Chill out guys, life is too short.

[Capt. Charlie]

Buh by, Skytroll.

Skytroll???

Why must everyone insist that their way is the only way? Chill out guys, life is too short.

Riverrat66 said it for me.

Well, they'll probably lock this thread now

Yep.

For the record guys, we can't, and wouldn't even if we could, monitor private messages. Private means just that. You can beat each other silly via PM's, but when you take it to the forums, it's a Problem, and Problems lead to locked threads, at the least.

Understand that I'm not taking sides here. Several here have displayed extremely parochial views, and debates should always result in something constructive. When neither side will concede a point, nothing constructive comes of it. Consider my sig line,....please!