Anyone recognize this flintlock pistol?

denster · September 13, 2018, 01:24 PM

I picked this up at an auction. It was listed as possibly India manufacture which I knew right away to be incorrect. The lock is engraved Dublin Castle and the crown and GR are engraved also. The barrel is 58 caliber and has the proof marks shown that I haven't been able to identify. The pistol has a martial look but I can't find anything like it. I am guessing original parts used to make and restock a pistol or a reworked martial pistol.
In any case the lock is quality and throws a shower of sparks and the barrel bore is clean so it will make a great shooter in the worst case.
Any help is appreciated.

denster · September 13, 2018, 03:47 PM

Closer photo of the lock. I took the lock out of the mortise and it is a quality piece of work. On the inside of the mortise is stamped in block letters.
First letter may be an H then ERRERT.

**4V50 Gary** · September 13, 2018, 06:01 PM

I’m suspicious of it. Did somebody try to refresh the engraving? Does a magnet stick to the metal?

denster · September 13, 2018, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

I’m suspicious of it. Did somebody try to refresh the engraving? Does a magnet stick to the metal?

Yes a magnet sticks to the metal. Whatever it's provenance it is a real flintlock pistol. I finally found my loupe and was able to identify the proof marks or at least two of them.
On the far right is a London proof house view mark, in the middle is a London definitive black powder proof. The one on the left has two numbers the last being 2 but I can't make out the first.

ThomasT · September 13, 2018, 10:13 PM

The freckling on the barrel and hammer finish make it look like it was plated at one time. Other than that I can be of no help.

Just curious, will the frizzen spark? The engraving looks hand cut and not stamped from a die.

denster · September 13, 2018, 10:50 PM

The freckling is where the metal was pitted all the metal parts have been cleaned. Yes that is engraving not stamping and the lock throws a good shower of sparks and is very well made.

Centurion · September 14, 2018, 05:33 AM

It is an early 1800s british light dragoon pistol.

denster · September 14, 2018, 08:45 AM

Thanks! Any idea where I might find a picture of one similar to this one?

denster · September 14, 2018, 11:00 AM

Additional info. On closer examination to stamped letters inside the lock mortise appear to spell HERBERT. Additionally the stock inside the lock mortise, the rammer, both lock screws have the same assembly file marks //III. Likely the barrel does also but I can only see two of the marks and don't want to take metal nose cap off to see. This nose cap appears to be a mend for a broken forestock. The Lock also has assembly marks on the plate and frizzen being //II
Since Dublin Castle stopped engraving their locks in 1798 I'm wondering if this wasn't a broken pistol that was repaired to help meet the arms needs of the Brits during the Napoleonic wars just after 1800?

**44 AMP** · September 14, 2018, 11:26 AM

Not to burst your bubble, you may have an original, but I'm far from expert enough to tell. What I can tell you is that since about the time the British introduced firearms into that part of the world, there have been people in India, Pakistan, and other places around there who have been hand making copies of guns, visually identical to the originals, right down to copying all proof marks.

And, not just flintlocks, but all the way up to SMLE's, Lugers, and others. Many (most) are shoddy knock offs and easily spotted, but some are virtually perfect copies to the naked eye.

arcticap · September 14, 2018, 12:43 PM

There's a British Militaria Forum where folks may be able to help you out with more info.: --->>> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...ssion-arms-f4/

For example, here's a 2 page thread about a similar topic from that same forum:--->>> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...st-t22651.html

I did find more than a few Dublin Castle dragoons that were previously sold at auctions, but this one shows how some had slightly different patterns - i.e. the grip angle:--->>> https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/210...?category=list

Your pistol may have more markings under the barrel or on the stock if the stock were old enough to be period.

Every other Dublin Castle dragoon that I saw online had a brass trigger guard & grip cap except for yours. Perhaps an indication that it was rebuilt...maybe more than once?

P.S. Here's an early original from IMA:--->>> https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...12060789211205

Model12Win · September 14, 2018, 01:24 PM

Whatever it is its a beaut and if it gives good fire from cock and hammer I'd take the piece to the range!

denster · September 14, 2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Not to burst your bubble, you may have an original, but I'm far from expert enough to tell. What I can tell you is that since about the time the British introduced firearms into that part of the world, there have been people in India, Pakistan, and other places around there who have been hand making copies of guns, visually identical to the originals, right down to copying all proof marks.

And, not just flintlocks, but all the way up to SMLE's, Lugers, and others. Many (most) are shoddy knock offs and easily spotted, but some are virtually perfect copies to the naked eye.

No bubble to burst just interested in what I might have here. At the very least I have a neat smoothbore flintlock pistol to shoot.

**4V50 Gary** · September 15, 2018, 08:17 AM

I finally figured out what bothered me. It looks like it's been refinished and that some of the engraving was refreshed.

denster · September 15, 2018, 02:15 PM

I agree with your observation Gary. The stock is lacking the expected wear, nicks and gouges. The engraving has not been refreshed but looks that way due to the surface being cleaned and debris left in the engraving.

**4V50 Gary** · September 15, 2018, 05:20 PM

It was the lack of patina on the metal and the peculiar coloring that made reminded me of those non-working zinc replicas.

T. O'Heir · September 16, 2018, 11:46 AM

The lack of patina usually indicates Bubba was at the thing and ruined any collector value.
iCollector.com listed that exact model of pistol back in 2016 as a replica, probably made in India. A real Brit pistol will have inspector's stamps all over it. That doesn't mean it was though. There are all kinds of various era "DUBLIN CASTLE" pistols all over the assorted auction house sites. None of which look remotely like a Light Dragoon pistol. Those have brass fittings for the most part.
The "Crown" over "G.R." and "DUBLIN CASTLE" across the tail is found on Brown Bess musket locks too.

denster · September 16, 2018, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

The lack of patina usually indicates Bubba was at the thing and ruined any collector value.
iCollector.com listed that exact model of pistol back in 2016 as a replica, probably made in India. A real Brit pistol will have inspector's stamps all over it. That doesn't mean it was though. There are all kinds of various era "DUBLIN CASTLE" pistols all over the assorted auction house sites. None of which look remotely like a Light Dragoon pistol. Those have brass fittings for the most part.
The "Crown" over "G.R." and "DUBLIN CASTLE" across the tail is found on Brown Bess musket locks too.

That bubba has at some time been at it is a given. Do you by any chance have a direct link to the to the icollector listing you referred to? I doubt there are other examples out there exactly like this and as such the listing may have been for this one. The barrel band is a fix for a broken forestock and not original to the pistol as first constructed.

denster · September 16, 2018, 05:57 PM

Arcticap I have to thank you for the lead to the British Militaria forum. They were able to I.D. what I have. Turns out it is what they call an Afghan bring back. The barrel is original with commercial English proofs and the lock is a original Dublin Castle "extra flat" pistol lock. The lock screws and rammer are original items also but the rest is Afghan restock or re-creation in modern times.

September 13, 2018, 06:01 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	I’m suspicious of it. Did somebody try to refresh the engraving? Does a magnet stick to the metal? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 14, 2018, 11:00 AM	#9
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	More Info Additional info. On closer examination to stamped letters inside the lock mortise appear to spell HERBERT. Additionally the stock inside the lock mortise, the rammer, both lock screws have the same assembly file marks //III. Likely the barrel does also but I can only see two of the marks and don't want to take metal nose cap off to see. This nose cap appears to be a mend for a broken forestock. The Lock also has assembly marks on the plate and frizzen being //II Since Dublin Castle stopped engraving their locks in 1798 I'm wondering if this wasn't a broken pistol that was repaired to help meet the arms needs of the Brits during the Napoleonic wars just after 1800?

September 14, 2018, 11:26 AM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,791	Not to burst your bubble, you may have an original, but I'm far from expert enough to tell. What I can tell you is that since about the time the British introduced firearms into that part of the world, there have been people in India, Pakistan, and other places around there who have been hand making copies of guns, visually identical to the originals, right down to copying all proof marks. And, not just flintlocks, but all the way up to SMLE's, Lugers, and others. Many (most) are shoddy knock offs and easily spotted, but some are virtually perfect copies to the naked eye. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 14, 2018, 12:43 PM	#11
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	There's a British Militaria Forum where folks may be able to help you out with more info.: --->>> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...ssion-arms-f4/ For example, here's a 2 page thread about a similar topic from that same forum:--->>> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...st-t22651.html I did find more than a few Dublin Castle dragoons that were previously sold at auctions, but this one shows how some had slightly different patterns - i.e. the grip angle:--->>> https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/210...?category=list Your pistol may have more markings under the barrel or on the stock if the stock were old enough to be period. Every other Dublin Castle dragoon that I saw online had a brass trigger guard & grip cap except for yours. Perhaps an indication that it was rebuilt...maybe more than once? P.S. Here's an early original from IMA:--->>> https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...12060789211205 Last edited by arcticap; September 14, 2018 at 01:27 PM.

September 15, 2018, 08:17 AM	#14
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	I finally figured out what bothered me. It looks like it's been refinished and that some of the engraving was refreshed. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 13, 2018, 10:13 PM	#5
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,751	The freckling on the barrel and hammer finish make it look like it was plated at one time. Other than that I can be of no help. Just curious, will the frizzen spark? The engraving looks hand cut and not stamped from a die.

September 13, 2018, 10:50 PM	#6
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	The freckling is where the metal was pitted all the metal parts have been cleaned. Yes that is engraving not stamping and the lock throws a good shower of sparks and is very well made.

September 14, 2018, 05:33 AM	#7
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	It is an early 1800s british light dragoon pistol.

September 14, 2018, 08:45 AM	#8
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	Thanks! Any idea where I might find a picture of one similar to this one?

September 14, 2018, 01:24 PM	#12
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Whatever it is its a beaut and if it gives good fire from cock and hammer I'd take the piece to the range!

September 15, 2018, 02:15 PM	#15
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	I agree with your observation Gary. The stock is lacking the expected wear, nicks and gouges. The engraving has not been refreshed but looks that way due to the surface being cleaned and debris left in the engraving.

September 15, 2018, 05:20 PM	#16
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	It was the lack of patina on the metal and the peculiar coloring that made reminded me of those non-working zinc replicas. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

September 16, 2018, 11:46 AM	#17
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The lack of patina usually indicates Bubba was at the thing and ruined any collector value. iCollector.com listed that exact model of pistol back in 2016 as a replica, probably made in India. A real Brit pistol will have inspector's stamps all over it. That doesn't mean it was though. There are all kinds of various era "DUBLIN CASTLE" pistols all over the assorted auction house sites. None of which look remotely like a Light Dragoon pistol. Those have brass fittings for the most part. The "Crown" over "G.R." and "DUBLIN CASTLE" across the tail is found on Brown Bess musket locks too. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

September 16, 2018, 05:57 PM	#19
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	Thanks Arcticap Arcticap I have to thank you for the lead to the British Militaria forum. They were able to I.D. what I have. Turns out it is what they call an Afghan bring back. The barrel is original with commercial English proofs and the lock is a original Dublin Castle "extra flat" pistol lock. The lock screws and rammer are original items also but the rest is Afghan restock or re-creation in modern times.

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