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Old July 10, 2018, 03:09 PM   #26
FrankenMauser
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If you want a good combat trigger for your AR-15, Uncle Sam has already done the homework for you. Put a milspec trigger in it and learn to shoot that effectively.
When was the last time you took your AR-15 into combat?...



Mine sure don't see combat. Nor do they need a 'combat trigger'.



I think I understand the point you're trying to make, but the way you're going about it feels like "argument for the sake of argument."
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Old July 10, 2018, 03:32 PM   #27
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The M-14 is another great example. It is has a very nice practical combat trigger already that people go ruin to punch holes in paper.

If you want a good combat trigger for your AR-15, Uncle Sam has already done the homework for you. Put a milspec trigger in it and learn to shoot that effectively.
But isn't an AR two stage trigger mechanically quite similar to an M14 trigger? Why is it nice and practical in an M14, but not an AR?

The stock government pattern AR trigger strikes me as the government cheese of triggers.
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Old July 11, 2018, 08:12 PM   #28
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When was the last time you took your AR-15 into combat?...
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Old July 11, 2018, 08:14 PM   #29
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Why is it nice and practical in an M14, but not an AR?
That is my point....the MILSPEC trigger is nice AND practical on an M4.
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Old July 12, 2018, 10:19 AM   #30
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I have had good and bad mil-spec triggers. As for Uncle Sam doing the homework, I don't trust Uncle Sam who uses least common denominator, one size fits all, made by the lowest bidder mentality in designing and sourcing products. Some stuff works. Some stuff works well. Some stuff sucks. Some stuff doesn't work so well.
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Old July 12, 2018, 10:38 AM   #31
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It wasn’t a general statement on government procurement. It was specific to small arms. 26 1/2 years US Army as a trigger puller..never had a trigger issue with any rifle and never saw one.

I have seen civilian target triggers that are unsafe for anything but a range.
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Old July 12, 2018, 10:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by davidsog
The M-14 is another great example. It is has a very nice practical combat trigger already that people go ruin to punch holes in paper....
Quote:
But isn't an AR two stage trigger mechanically quite similar to an M14 trigger? Why is it nice and practical in an M14, but not an AR?
That is my point....the MILSPEC trigger is nice AND practical on an M4.
The M4 has a trigger that is a single stage trigger with a lot of sear engagement. The M14 (and Garand) has a two stage trigger that is mechnically like an AR two stage aftermarket trigger (hooks on the hammer that make trigger weight and hammer energy influenced by different springs).

The M4 may have a good and practical trigger that is durable and gives good reliability, but it surely isn't mechanically safer than a two stage trigger, and few would call it "very nice".

Quote:
I have seen civilian target triggers that are unsafe for anything but a range.
Certainly true. In the AR pattern, those unsafe set ups seem to be the result of altered sear geometry and scant sear engagement with what is essentially a reworked single stage design. The M4 overcomes that with lots of poundage, camming and sear engagement.


EDIT - Someone makes a grip screw that has a screw within it that takes up the the pre-travel in an AR trigger so one can adjust his sear engagement down to nothing at all. The concept seems nuts to me. I think I dislike those more than "binary" triggers.

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Old July 12, 2018, 12:03 PM   #33
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The M4 may have a good and practical trigger that is durable and gives good reliability, but it surely isn't mechanically safer than a two stage trigger, and few would call it "very nice".
Single stage trigger is just as safe as a two stage trigger especially when it has a booger hook on it.

Yes, the Army has experienced some issues with the last upgrades with the weapons discharging going from semi to auto. That has never been experienced before and is limited to last batch of contracted upgrade rifles. They are still investigating and I highly doubt the trigger design is a cause.
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Old July 12, 2018, 02:30 PM   #34
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So, you're saying that the DoD issued you an AR-15, and not an M4.
Sure...
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Old July 12, 2018, 03:01 PM   #35
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So, you're saying that the DoD issued you an AR-15, and not an M4.
Sure....
AR15 has the same milspec trigger as the M4.

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Old July 12, 2018, 11:14 PM   #36
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It wasn’t a general statement on government procurement. It was specific to small arms. 26 1/2 years US Army as a trigger puller..never had a trigger issue with any rifle and never saw one.
Quote:
Yes, the Army has experienced some issues with the last upgrades with the weapons discharging going from semi to auto. That has never been experienced before and is limited to last batch of contracted upgrade rifles. They are still investigating and I highly doubt the trigger design is a cause.
Interesting contrasting statements. Sounds like some mil-spec triggers would not even be safe for the range.
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Old July 13, 2018, 12:40 AM   #37
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AR15 has the same milspec trigger as the M4.
An AR-15 is not an M4.
Nor will aftermarket triggers designed to for the AR-15 work in the M4.

You're comparing apples to bananas, and trying to lead carrots to water by dangling a horse in front of them.


I know the point that you're trying to make, but you're ignoring reality. The trigger groups of the modern semi-auto-only AR-15 and the burst or auto M4 are so different that you may as well be saying that the AR-15 "Mil-Spec" trigger is equal to, and interchangeable with, that of the HK USP.
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Old July 13, 2018, 10:06 AM   #38
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An AR-15 is not an M4.
Nor will aftermarket triggers designed to for the AR-15 work in the M4.
I think you do not understand the term MILSPEC. That means it is done to the Military Specification and meets the same exact standards.

So, if your M4 meets MILSPEC and your AR-15 has a MILSPEC trigger then it meet the same standards. The triggers will correctly perform a function check for the functions available to the weapon (AR-15 is semi-auto only and does not require a burst/full auto circuit) and not break below the 5.5lbs listed in the manual and break by the 8.5lb (M4A1) or 9.5lb(M16/AR15) upper limit.

For Example:

Quote:

Mil-Spec Trigger Kit, AR15

Reliable single stage design based on the original M16 trigger, modified for semi auto use.
https://www.cmmginc.com/product/mil-...gger-kit-ar15/
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Old July 13, 2018, 10:26 AM   #39
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An AR-15 is not an M4.
Nor will aftermarket triggers designed to for the AR-15 work in the M4.
You are going to have to educate me on why an AR15 trigger won't go in an M4. Now, I understand m4 assemblies may not go in some AR15s where the lower is not properly milled out, hence won't accept the fully auto kit, but I don't see why a regular AR15 trigger group won't work in an M4. Otherwise, all of the holes are in the same places
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Old July 13, 2018, 10:28 AM   #40
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Interesting contrasting statements. Sounds like some mil-spec triggers would not even be safe for the range.
How is it contrasting when a single contractor screwed the pooch??????

If you install improper parts or improper assembly then you can expect things not to work correctly.

Let's disassembly your car engine and put in the wrong timing chain. Then we can then by your logic condemn the reliability of all vehicles of the same make/model because your improperly assembled vehicle does not function correctly.
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Old July 13, 2018, 10:30 AM   #41
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Now, I understand m4 assemblies may not go in some AR15s where the lower is not properly milled out, hence won't accept the fully auto kit, but I don't see why a regular AR15 trigger group won't work in an M4. Otherwise, all of the holes are in the same places
It will...you will just have a semi-auto M4.
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Old July 13, 2018, 11:33 AM   #42
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How is it contrasting when a single contractor screwed the pooch??????
I won't requote you, but you said in 26 1/2 years you have never seen a problem and then you described a problem. Here we get back to that lowest bidder thing I mentioned above, LOL.

Mil-spec are not all made to the exact same standards, unfortunately, and that is why problems like the one you describe do occur. They are supposed to be made within a a range of tolerances. Individual problems are found and replaced on a continual basis, during manufacturing and in the field. Armorers replace the bad parts. That is what happened in your example, but it was a whole freaking batch that got through and not individual units. To suggest there are no bad parts would be naive. The reality is that there are good and a bad mil-spec triggers made within the range of tolerances and then some bad ones that fall outside of the range of tolerances.

You like the mil-spec trigger, which is fine, but you give the impression that it is a very exactingly precise mechanism and that just isn't the case. It is not for everyone.

Quote:
It will...you will just have a semi-auto M4.
Well, you and I believe this. I have seen this, but I was wanting to hear his reasons for why it won't work.
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Old July 13, 2018, 12:01 PM   #43
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AR and M4 triggers are exactly the same--they both use a finger to fire. Lets get back on track folks--since my request is within the realm of commonly used/accesible to the public AR triggers.
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Old July 13, 2018, 01:30 PM   #44
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Stagpanther,

I hope your question was answered. Decide what purpose you want out of your AR-15 build and build accordingly.

MILSPEC triggers on an AR-15 are designed for the practical reality of combat and work very well in my limited experience.

It is almost impossible for you to get a MILSPEC trigger as a civilian but you can get something that approximates MILSPEC.

Obviously this is a rather large debate among AR-15 users...

Quote:
Even though lots of AR shooters can’t wait to drop in a new trigger, there’s a lot to be said for the plain-Jane, factory original. Yes, sometimes you get a creepy or gritty one, especially if you go with a manufacturer that’s not known for mil-spec parts. It works well enough, and there’s very little that can go wrong, as the design has been proven many times over. There’s not much chance it will be so light that you fire it before you intend to due to excitement or stress or adrenaline in a serious situation.

Plus, it’s non-adjustable. Many shooters fall prey to the siren call of the adjustable trigger and adjust themselves to unnecessary problems. There’s always the chance that a perfectly-adjusted trigger somehow slips out of adjustment, exactly when you need it most. Currently, I have three guns with factory original triggers and plans for some more of the same in the future.
https://www.ammoland.com/2015/03/bes...#axzz5L9xj2GSy

Quote:
Military specifications – or “mil spec” – are mandatory standards and technical requirements developed by the United States government’s General Accountability Office. They pertain to equipment utilized by the military, partially with the intention of ensuring operability while also allowing for compatibility and interchangeability.

Consider issuance of a firearm, for example. If military personnel are issued the same weapon, they should all be familiar with its functions and operations. Instead of a conglomeration of firearms with a variety of parts and reliability, everyone is carrying the same thing. Parts from one weapon (from roll pins to magazines) can be used in another weapon if needed. The last problem a soldier should have to worry about is whether or not his or her firearm will work.

Mil-spec criteria are applied to every detail of an issued weapon, including the dimensions and tolerances of parts, construction materials, construction processes – if you can think of a firearm component or function, it has a corresponding mil-spec requirement.

Lastly, and very importantly, mil-spec equipment is subject to rigorous testing and inspection by the government itself prior to any approval or issuance. This isn’t batch testing. Mil-spec requires that each and every weapon be examined and tested.
Quote:
When you encounter an AR-15 lower parts kit – or entire weapons – that claim to be mil-spec, you are actually looking at parts which, at best, have been constructed identically to those utilized for military rifles. This isn’t to say they are inferior, just that they have not finished the final stage of military specification inspection requirements.
https://www.ar-15lowerpartskit.com/u...eceiver-parts/
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Old July 13, 2018, 01:43 PM   #45
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you described a problem.
Problem occurred AFTER I retired.

Problem is still under investigation.

Problem is limited to a small batch of specific weapons in which a single specific contractor worked on said weapons.
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Old July 13, 2018, 02:16 PM   #46
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I wasn't actually looking for a recommendation for a particular type of trigger--having built 3 dozen or so AR's of different flavors I already know what I like--and it does vary from weapon to weapon--there is no "one-size-fits-all" IMO--but I am very interested in what others have to say as to what makes a good trigger FOR THEM IN THEIR OPINION, and most specifically why.

I do appreciate your perspective and comments.
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Old July 13, 2018, 02:35 PM   #47
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makes a good trigger FOR THEM IN THEIR OPINION, and most specifically why.
Sure thing but understand this is a function of the purpose of the weapon. What makes a good trigger in one instance is not so good for others.
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Old July 13, 2018, 02:42 PM   #48
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Sure thing but understand this is a function of the purpose of the weapon. What makes a good trigger in one instance is not so good for others.
Exactly why I want to hear different perspectives from different people with different applications/experiences. I was "fishing" for something that struck a chord--and actually decided to order a new-to-me trigger to try out as a result. The inherent safety of a stock mil-spec trigger in battle conditions is a perfectly good reason (I assume, not being a vet myself) for having one. I think of them as Kalishnakov's revenge--but that's just MY opinion.
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