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Old June 18, 2017, 02:11 PM   #26
ShootistPRS
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I don't like chambering a lubed case. Most of my loading is done with carbide dies - full length for straight cases and neck sizing for bottle neck cases. On those rare occasions when I full length size range brass or brass fired from a different gun I am forced to use lube. I use paper towels to wipe the lube off. Paper picks up oil faster and more completely than cloth.
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Old June 18, 2017, 07:46 PM   #27
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My 2 cents on the topic. I use walnut with rouge (the red stuff) to clean after range day. lube, resize and de-cap, trim, camphor and de-burr. toss'em back in the tumbler with corncob (not the green stuff). Inspect cases and place them in storage container according to head stamp. Good to go for when I'm ready to load. I have used the lizard litter in place of the corn cob with varying degrees of success. The first bag I got from the pet store worked great. When that bag of media was toast I bought another one, dust became an issue. I had to re-tumble my entire stock of 9mm because of stuck cases in my die due to dust. The whole lot was contaminated with fine walnut dust some 3000 cases. Again just my two cents, clean, lube - size, trim ch-db, tumble, load.
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Old June 18, 2017, 11:27 PM   #28
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I must be the only guy here that cleans, lubes, resizes and loads, and doesn't worry about residual case lube. I lube sparingly, and have never had any issues with stuck cases. Also I have never had issues firing cases with some lube residue left on them. I suspect the difference in clearance is in the range of 10s of thousandths of inches. Never any problems and my reloads are quite accurate.
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Old June 19, 2017, 01:32 PM   #29
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I am always having bolt thrust on my mind.

I clean with walnut media first. Then I do my case prep. Then I clean again with corn cob media to remove any contaminants (including case lube). After that, I consider the brass to be ready to prime and load.

I am confident that having all lube removed from the brass reduces bolt thrust as it allows the brass case to grip the chamber as it is designed to do.
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Old June 19, 2017, 02:35 PM   #30
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Anyone got any empirical data on the % increase of bolt thrust from a nominal amount of residual case lube, versus a spotlessly clean case....?

(...and whether it really matters?)
Hatcherites and Ackleyites all start from the basic premise that the action is weak and the case is strong. That is, the purpose of the case is to take load off the action, be a structural member, when in fact, the case is delicate gas seal that needs to be supported by the action.

A series of questions:

1) what loads are actions designed to hold?
2) How much bolt thrust does a case provide?
3) Are actions weakened based on the case removing bolt thrust?

For the first, an action designer assumes that the action absorbs the full thrust of the case and does not assume the case carries any load.

Case to chamber friction does reduce bolt thrust, and it does so by stretching the case, usually permanently stretching the case. However, case friction is not a constant. It varies, it varies a lot. Depends on chamber finish, chamber cleanliness, and whether there is any grease, water, oil in the chamber or case. If you are really worried about bolt thrust due to oily cases, make sure you use a chemical wash to remove all oils, and wear gloves to prevent finger oils from getting on the case sidewalls.

Actions are not weakened assuming the case carries bolt thrust. Only a very stupid person would design an action to hold less than the full thrust of the cartridge. Case thrust on the bolt is calculated as maximum cartridge pressure times case outer diameter. This gives a load in pounds feet. I would calculate case thrust based on the maximum diameter at case head separation. I challenge the Hatcherites and Ackleyites in this forum to state just how much case friction a designer should plan for, in weakening his mechanism? Just how much reduction in bolt thrust comes from case to chamber friction, is it 10%, 20%, 50%, 75%, 100%, and thus, should the action designer weaken his locking lugs by 10%, 20%, 50%, 75%, or 100%? Just what is the number?

For those worried about the increased bolt thrust created by any grease or oil on a case, do you realize by neck sizing, or chambering a zero tolerance cartridge is increasing bolt thrust to the maximum amount? For a mathematic treatment of this I recommend reading Professor Boatright’s papers on this.

Steel Support for the Brass Cartridge Case by James A. Boatright

http://www.thewellguidedbullet.com/p...tridgeCase.pdf


Yielding of Brass Case Walls in the Chamber by James Boatright

http://www.thewellguidedbullet.com/p...theChamber.pdf

If the math is too difficult, basically what Professor Boatright is telling is unless you are stretching the cartridge case, you are maximizing the bolt thrust. I recently re read his papers, having missed the point earlier, and I totally agree. To reduce bolt thrust by case stretch there has to be clearance between the cartridge shoulder and the chamber shoulder. Of course the case and chamber have to be sticky enough to grab. Chrome chambers would increase the bolt thrust because chrome reduces chamber friction. Oils and greases would reduce friction even more than a chrome coating. With a case shorter than the chamber, the firing pin pushes it forward in the chamber, the primer ignites, and then, the front of the case sticks to the chamber. Then as pressure builds, the case carries load by side wall stretching. The case sidewalls are stretched by the amount of clearance there was at the time of case adherence. Since the case is carrying load, by being stretched, some of that load is removed from the bolt lugs.

Now if you have a crunch fit case, such as what happens with an overlength case, or a neck sized case, while the case will adhere to the chamber, it won’t stretch, thus maximizing the amount of bolt thrust. The thrust has to be equal to the bolt thrust of a fully lubricated cartridge, perhaps more.

There are many who worry about increasing bolt thrust, and they should be made aware that neck sizing increases bolt thrust to the maximum possible amount. Do I think any Hatcherite or Ackleyite will stop neck sizing or warn about the “dangers” of neck sizing, heck no. They live in an inconsistent physical universe, not bounded by what is considered the laws of physics in this universe.

And, for those who warn about the dangers of greased and oiled rounds, just how do you explain the multiple actions that had oilers, and the actions that required greased ammunition, and cartridges that are lubricated with “polymer” coatings? Of course you can’t, you don’t even know of their existence, and you would probably ignore them anyway because they don’t fit into your fantasy physical universe. These polymer coatings are typically a mix of wax, grease, Teflon, all there to break the friction between case and chamber. They are called “polymer” coatings because the industry knows the loud howling that would come from ignorant Hatcherites and Ackleyites if they told these people that there was grease or oil on the cartridge.

Do you think a designer such a John Pedersen would spend the time, money, effort, patenting a lubricated case process if it was dangerous? He knows that in fact, breaking the friction between case and chamber is good for the case, and good for gun function.

http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566
Patented Nov. 4, 1930 PATENT OFFICE JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS 11,0 Drawing.


This invention relates to a process for coating cartridges and more particularly the affixing of a coating of hard wax to the metal case of a cartridge; and the object of the invention is to provide a method whereby cartridges may be coated with great uniformity with an extremely thin film, and also whereby a relatively large number of cartridges may be coated in a short time and at small cost.

In the preparation of cartridges having metal cases for storage and for use, it has been found desirable to apply to said metal case a relatively thin coating of some protective substance which will preserve said metal case for comparatively long periods of time against-deterioration, such as season cracking. In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing. The most suitable wax which I have found for this purpose and which I at present prefer is ceresin, a refined product of ozokerite; but I wish it to be understood that other waxes having similar qualities may exist which might serve equally well. Some of the desirable features of ceresin are that it is hard and non-tacky at ordinary temperatures having a melting point somewhere between 140 and 176 Fahrenheit. It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust. However, when the ceresin on the cartridges is melted in the chamber of a gun, it becomes a lubricant.

Other lubricating waxes have been employed for coating cartridges, and the method most generally pursued for applying said coating to the cartridge case has been to prepare a heated bath of a solution of the wax in a suitable solvent, dip the cartridges therein so that a film of the solution will adhere thereto, and finally withdraw the cartridges to permit the solvent to evaporate from the coating film. This former process is comparatively slow and has been found lacking in several important respects.


I regularly lube cases on first firing. Especially expensive cases like these belted magnum cases. I want the case to expand to the chamber without any side wall stretch as the base to shoulder distance is not controlled in belted magnums. Once the are fire formed to the chamber I only bump the shoulder back a couple of thousandths, and don’t have to lube them again, before firing, unless they are shot in a different rifle. Lubricated cases shoot fine.

I am only doing what a World Champion Benchrest shooter advices: Mike Ratigan, National and World Champion short range BR, in his book "Extreme Rifle Accuracy" advocates lubing the case with light oil because in his words:
Quote:
"When the case starts to pressure up, it won't grip the sides of the chamber because of the oil" He goes on to say "This will allow the case to be forced back up against the bolt face and it will stay there without stretching the web area...."

Who here has more gravitas than a World Champion bench rest shooter?

















I experimented with greased bullets to see if there would be any pressure problems, there was not. Grease that was not blown up the barrel was squeezed back through the action. Accuracy was fine. Greased bullets were used extensively by a number of militaries to reduce jacket fouling.





I have lots more pictures but this forum only allows six pictures per post.
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Old June 19, 2017, 04:22 PM   #31
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postscript: SlamFire, you're not allowed to say anything... least someone invoke the last line in Liberty Valence
Doggonnit, Slamfire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=363ZAmQEA84

You utterly failed to read/heed my admonition.


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Old June 19, 2017, 05:05 PM   #32
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Quote:
SlamFire, you're not allowed to say anything... least someone invoke the last line in Liberty Valance
Doggonnit, Slamfire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=363ZAmQEA84

You utterly failed to read/heed my admonition.

I would be a lot better off if I were a Psychologist, charging $100/hr to explore the delusions of the shooting community. I would be rich beyond reckoning. The basic problem I have is that my physical reality is bounded. I consider Newton’s three laws of motion so foundational, so important, F equals MA and it does so down to the sub atomic. But the laws of physics are limiting , so very limiting. This is to the advantage of the vast number of Hatcherites and Ackleyites who are on the web. Physics is not a hard science for Hatcherites and Ackleyites. Individually they create fantasy universes, operating under entirely different rules, unique to each individual. Call it surrealism for the shooting community . Hatcherites embrace the madness of surrealism. This surrealism is a vast, unlimited, ever changing, unbounded, infinite series of fantasy universes. Each universe operating under its own unique, contradictory, inconsistent physical laws. A place where up is down and the pillow is a horse. Based on the number of Hatcherites and Ackleyites posting on web forums, it is impossible for one person, even if given an infinite number of lifetimes, to unravel the fallacious fantasy constructs of each and every Hatcherite or Ackleyite . Because, the operation of each and every one of their universes is unique to the individual’s hunches, experiences, intuitive thoughts, and madness!

I dislike being lied to, being taught a lie as truth, and thus my outrage at a lie, over a century year old, that is still core to the thinking of the shooting community. This is what I am going to claim as Hatcherism:

Greased bullets are dangerous. Grease and oil on the case unpredictably raise combustion pressures leading to dangerously high levels of bolt thrust.

I am going to say that Hatcherism is a lie, created by the Army to excuse away blowups of their low number M1903’s. If you interact long enough with large organizations you will find that they are never at fault and never accept blame. They will create myths, legends, lies, to excuse away their incompetence and misdeeds. They will in fact do much worse than lie, if they can get away with it. At the time low number M1903’s were in the field, the Ordnance Department was in absolute denial over the blowups occurring in the hands of troops and civilians. The fault was defective manufacture of the rifles. But, as you would expect, the Army Ordnance Bureau found a shooter practice that they could place the blame: greased bullets. Shooters were greasing their bullets to prevent fouling. So you had this situation of Army rifles blowing up with Army ammunition and of course the fault could not be in either the Army rifles or the Army ammunition so it had to be the grease. This lie is over a century old now and it turns out to be foundational to many of the belief systems in the American shooting community.

The community as a whole is almost totally ignorant of the vast number of mechanisms that used greased or oiled cartridges, and of the number of Armies that used greased bullets before non fouling bullet jackets were invented.

By the time you get to WW2, Army manuals are stating weird, physically inconsistent statements such as this:

TM 9-1904 Ammunition Inspection Guide 2 Mar 1944


Page 232
Handling cartridges.
The use of oil on cartridge cases is prohibited. Greasing or oiling cartridges used in machine guns and automatic arms cause the collection of dust and other abrasives which are injurious. Grease or oil on cartridge cases or on the walls of the chamber in nonautomatic rifles creates excessive and hazardous pressure on the rifle bolt. When there is oil on the cartridge case, there is no adhesion of the case to the chamber. When the case expands upon firing, the case slips back, and the bolt receives a greater rearward thrust. An apparent exception exists in the case of lead bullets. However, only the bullet is waxed or greased as issued. Ammunition should not be exposed

Did you catch the warning about non automatic rifles? Grease and oil in cartridges in non automatic rifles create an excessive and hazardous pressure on the rifle bolt. A non automatic rifle would be something like a single shot rifle, or a bolt gun. So, greased and oiled cartridges in non automatic rifles is dangerous. Most believe this, most accept this, I have heard this stated several times in this thread. What the current crop of shooters don’t know, but hundreds of thousands of Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Aircrew knew in WW2, was that the 20 mm Oerlikon used greased cartridges.




The 20mm Oerlikon was fielded in more numbers than any other automatic cannon. It was fielded by the Americans, British, Australians, Indians, and any one else in the Allied cause. As for the Axis side, the Germans and Japanese fielded versions of this weapon. Probably so did the Italians but I have not looked it up. All Oerlikon used greased ammunition. Oerlikon were used on planes, trains, automobiles, ships, you name it. I know a Vietnam veteran who stole one from the USAF and bolted it to the deck of his armored river barge. According to the Technical Manual, greased and oiled cartridges are safe to use in automatic weapons but you have to know your firearm history to understand why these distinctions were created. Few do and it is amazing the number of people who accept that greased and oiled cartridges creates excessive and hazardous pressure on the rifle bolt of non automatic rifles, but not automatic rifles. Because of the ignorance of the shooting community about the function, theory, operation, and history of historic weapons, and of course, weapons in general, many are never troubled about this apparent contradiction on the law of physics. Instead most will accept that there are a different set of physical laws for bolt guns, and that automatic weapons were “designed” to use greased and oiled cartridges, and therefore, lubrication does not create excessive and hazardous pressure on the bolt of those mechanisms.

Hatcherism works because Hatcherites have unquestioning faith in authority. If authority says greased or oiled cases increase bolt thrust, they don't have enough knowledge to question this. They don’t know and cannot express how to design a locking mechanism. I have asked a number of Hatcherites how they would design a locking mechanism. Specifically just by how much would they weaken the locking mechanism assuming the cartridge carries load. I have offered simple ideas such as, assume a lubricated case transmits 100% bolt thrust, therefore how much would they weaken the locking mechanism assuming the load is reduced by case friction. Would the number be 10%, 20%, 30%? , and of course, how would they maintain that level of friction in the field? . I think this whole discussion is incomprehensible to Hatcherites . I am not sure they understand that a mechanism has to be designed to carry a maximum load, and that the maximum load needs to be defined. Maybe they think weapon systems are born, like biological creatures, already endowed by their creator with all the structural support needed to function in the world.

At some point, you have to be able to think for yourself, and on this topic, I no longer believe an Army lie over a century old.
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Old June 19, 2017, 06:47 PM   #33
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wha-a-a-a-a-t
?

POOF goes my brain. Second time this week!

I've been lied to, hornswoggled, bamboozled, double crossed, I say, I say misled man! Why lord, why would every one tell me to remove the wax if it wasn't necessary? That would shave an hour of my reloading time!

your saying (slamfire) that I've been cleaning that wax off for nothing! how crud filled would ones chamber be after firing say 100 rnds? wouldn't the wax be a dust/dirt/carbon magnet inside or outside of the rifle? where would I keep my waxy rounds in a real life environment out side the lab? Please don't take that as a personal attack, I'm still trying to recover my marbles after digesting the info. maybe it hasn't sunk in yet. I would ask you to elaborate, but I think I should read all that a couple more times first.
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Old June 19, 2017, 07:12 PM   #34
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Unless you intend to roll your ammunition in the dirt before firing, you'll not "build up" any residual contamination/grease/material in the receiver with normal usage.

As to bolt thrust, spotless/polished brass --which seems all the OCD Rage these days -- produces near exactly the same.
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Old June 19, 2017, 07:18 PM   #35
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"I only bump the shoulder back a couple of thousandths"

F Guffy says this is not possible? (the bump)

"At some point, you have to be able to think for yourself" Trying sir. Thanks for the good read, still digesting. Marbles still coalescing.
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Old June 19, 2017, 07:19 PM   #36
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that I've been cleaning that wax off for nothing! how crud filled would ones chamber be after firing say 100 rnds? wouldn't the wax be a dust/dirt/carbon magnet inside or outside of the rifle? where would I keep my waxy rounds in a real life environment out side the lab? Please don't take that as a personal attack, I'm still trying to recover my marbles after digesting the info. maybe it hasn't sunk in yet. I would ask you to elaborate, but I think I should read all that a couple more times first.
Dirt getting on waxy, greasy rounds is a concern and was one reason the Army wanted to get the grease off the bullets. In the run up to the 1921 National Matches, Major Townsend Whelen had convinced Army leadership that he had found the solution to jacket metal fouling: a thick coating of tin as the bullet jacket. He was told by the council of Colonels to "prove the evils of grease" but Capt Edward Crossman beat him to print with his article in the Arms and the Man. In the 15 April 1921 Arms and the Man Capt Edward C Crossman published an article titled Grease. At the very beginning of his article is fear mongering about dust storms, greasy cartridges, in Georgia, I think.

The Army had a lot of loaner rifles out there, and a lot of rifles being used by the troops. I am certain a annoying number of them came back with scratched chambers and rifling due to a combination of grease and dirt.

However, wax is far less likely to attract dirt than greases and oils. That is one reason Pedersen used wax on his cartridges. It dries to a hard finish that was relatively dirt resistant.




Most of the cheap 22lr shooters buy is covered with a wax.



The more expensive match ammunition is covered with a greasy lubricant. Just go down to the store and buy a box of Eley Tennex, Black Box Match, or Lapua Midas or Center-X. The cartridges are very greasy. I have shot cases of the stuff, and as long as I don't drop them in the dirt, everything works fine. Since I am shooting my own Anschutz rifles, I am not interesting in shooting dirty ammunition in the things.

I have been shooting Bullseye Pistol. Last year I fired about 3000 45 ACP rounds, in the centerfire and 45 matches. I dribbled oil over the cartridges in the magazine, to improve function with low recoiling rounds. By breaking the friction between case and chamber it improved extraction with very low powered rounds. It worked, it was messy, and I believe I found it to reduce bore leading. When the 45 ACP cartridges had oil on them, leading in the throat and bore reduced to nothing.

I shot out several M1a barrels in competition, I rubbed Johnson paste wax on the 308 rounds before matches, to prevent case head separations. M1a's and Garands are hard on cases. I took one set of cases 22 or 23 firings without a case head separation. I took care of them no differently than any other case. If I dropped one on the ground, I wiped it off before putting it in the magazine.

Incidentally, aluminum cased ammunition is coated in a wax coating. This is according to George Frost's book "Making Ammunition". Treat your ammunition and gun no differently than when you fire Blazer ammunition.

I clean my guns after every match. If I am shooting in a 6400 Regional or National Matches, I will go two days before cleaning my Anschutz rifles. On two day Bullseye Matches, I have skipped deep cleaning, just pushing a cleaning rod down the barrel, dribbling oil on the barrel bushing, slide rails, and wiping the excess off. But, other than those occasions, I keep my guns cleaned, and cleaned each and every time I come back from the range or a match. I do not allow an accumulation of crud which will interfere with the functioning of my firearms. So I don't have problems. I have had friends who never cleaned their 22 lr's until they had malfunctions. Any firearm will malfunction once enough crud has built up in the mechanism.

I recall several shooters at the range with 22lr Walther's. I forget the model (looked like a P22) but the thing was prone to jamming once wax residue had built up in the chamber. I got these guys back up and running by dribbling oil over the cartridges in the magazine stack. Oil dissolved the waxy crud and when I left, these guys were happily burning rimfire ammunition. I hope they cleaned their pistols when they got home.
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Old June 20, 2017, 09:14 AM   #37
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Great reads Slamfire. I rarely full length resize so I rarely lube cases but good info none the less.
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Old June 20, 2017, 11:29 AM   #38
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So the thousands of rounds I've fired with case lube residue left on have not destroyed my rifle after all . Thanks for the warm and fuzzy confirmation Slamfire.
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Old June 20, 2017, 01:09 PM   #39
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For the first, an action designer assumes that the action absorbs the full thrust of the case and does not assume the case carries any load.
Does your whole post start with an assumption rather then saying something like the designer knows .....

Quote:
Actions are not weakened assuming the case carries bolt thrust. Only a very stupid person would design an action to hold less than the full thrust of the cartridge.
or starts there design with an assumption

Are we even asking the right question ? I would think bolt thrust would not weaken the action . Would a better question be " does excessive bolt thrust prematurely wear the bolt lugs and action ?

Quote:
And, for those who warn about the dangers of greased and oiled rounds, just how do you explain the multiple actions that had oilers, and the actions that required greased ammunition, and cartridges that are lubricated with “polymer” coatings? Of course you can’t, you don’t even know of their existence, and you would probably ignore them anyway because they don’t fit into your fantasy physical universe. These polymer coatings are typically a mix of wax, grease, Teflon, all there to break the friction between case and chamber. They are called “polymer” coatings because the industry knows the loud howling that would come from ignorant Hatcherites and Ackleyites if they told these people that there was grease or oil on the cartridge.
What modern cartridge uses lubed cases that are not military based ? My understanding as to why cartridges were lubed were either to ensure function under high heat and stress ( high rates of fire ) in the action or poor original design that the easy quick fix was to lube the cartridge to get the action to operate correctly ? Once it was shown a lubed cartridge would help an action cycle more cartridges were designed this way ???
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Old June 20, 2017, 02:40 PM   #40
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Quote:
Quote:

For the first, an action designer assumes that the action absorbs the full thrust of the case and does not assume the case carries any load.
Does your whole post start with an assumption rather then saying something like the designer knows .....
Quote:
Quote:
:
Actions are not weakened assuming the case carries bolt thrust. Only a very stupid person would design an action to hold less than the full thrust of the cartridge.
or starts there design with an assumption
I have no idea where you are going with this. I suggest that you ask some engineers, be they mechanical, electrical, civil, aerospace, etc, if the maximum load on the item they are designing is X, would they design the structure, or electrical device, to fail at X minus something? And then ask, why would they design a device to fail at less than the maximum load?


Quote:
Are we even asking the right question ? I would think bolt thrust would not weaken the action . Would a better question be " does excessive bolt thrust prematurely wear the bolt lugs and action ?
Devices, mechanical or otherwise, are designed for a service life and a load. The service life is more complicated, like what is the service life of a washing machine? A bud of mine worked for an appliance company, told me that washing machines used to be designed for a 20 year service life, now they are designed for a 10 year life with 20 years as a goal. But, what is a service life?, someone has to define how many loads per week defines a service life. For firearms, bullets through the barrel, would be one way to define a service life. Pressures would be the maximum found in SAAMI specs for cartridges. The fatigue lifetime of the action would calculated around an assumed number of bullets down the barrel. No one in their right mind would design a locking mechanism to fatigue fracture before the assumed service lifetime was complete.

Shooters assume the lifetime of a firearm is an infinite number of rounds. That is not true even for competition rimfire rifles. I talked to a shooter who claimed he had 700,000 rounds through his Anschutz. The barrel and action were original but I did not ask if he had parts break, like firing pins, bolt cocking cam, trigger parts. I have had firing pins wear out and springs needed replacing. I talked to a State Champion who replaced the barrel of his Anschutz around 60,000 rounds, because, it was worn internally and would fling bullets. My rifle probably has around 20,000 to 30,000 rounds. I assume the first owner put 10,000 rounds through the thing. I have shot cases of match ammunition through mine. Eventually it will shoot loose, even though the locking mechanism, barrel, action, are massively oversized for the load. But Anschutz could put lots of weight in their rim fire rifles, as weight is good for accuracy, and no one is carrying the things in 25 mile marches plus an additional 60 pounds of combat gear.

Now, something that is true, if anyone is worried about mechanism failure, about bolt thrust, about mechanism lifetime, the thing to do is to cut your loads. Reduced pressures will reduce bolt thrust, reduce the pressures on the barrel, reduce the erosive flame wearing away the rifling, and reduce wear on the mechanical components of any firearm. This idea is anathema to Ackleyites, as they want higher performance, so they actively seek higher pressures.

Quote:
What modern cartridge uses lubed cases that are not military based ? My understanding as to why cartridges were lubed were either to ensure function under high heat and stress ( high rates of fire ) in the action or poor original design that the easy quick fix was to lube the cartridge to get the action to operate correctly ? Once it was shown a lubed cartridge would help an action cycle more cartridges were designed this way ???
Firearm development and military usage go hand in hand. There are very few mechanisms that were designed only for the civilian market. All firearm manufacturers know, if they can get the Military to adopt their weapon system, sales will be in the millions, maybe tens of millions. There are only a few civilian firearms that ever sold more than a million, some of them, like lever action rifles, it took a century to sell a million of the type. Corporations are not in it for the long haul, they want to sell a million firearms now and not wait several centuries to recoup their development costs. There are a few modern actions today that use dry lubricated (call them polymer coatings) cases. I don’t know why FN did not use a fluted chamber, but they decided to go the route of a lubricated case. Basically the type of action determines whether of not the mechanism uses case lubrication.

I am of the opinion that retarded blow back actions, delayed blowback actions, have less parts and have a higher cyclic rate than alternative actions. I don’t know this for a fact. I don’t know why certain countries adopted the actions they did. Col Chinn does not explore this in his series, “The Machine Gun”. Historically we know the Italians and the Japanese fielded entire series of light, heavy, machine guns which had oilers. But why that type, I don’t know. The Germans had a phobia of erosion around the gas port, so the pre WW2 German Army would not adopt any gas operated semi auto, or full auto, mechanism. This phobia was not rational, so maybe the Italians and the Japanese had similar phobias which lead to their adopting oiled mechanisms.

Nambu light machine with oiler tank on top:





The US Army has had a phobia against oil, greased, or any lubricated cartridges for over a century. That was a major issue against the Pedersen rifle as it used a lubricated cartridge case. They adopted the Oerlikon because it was the fastest firing single barrel machine cannon and there was not a better alternative at the time. Post WW2, the US Army spent vast amounts of money trying to get the greased cartridge out of the Oerlikon. The Army ran tests with Teflon coated cartridges, fluted chambers, but in the end, they put an oiler on the mechanism.

Before chamber flutes, which is gas lubrication, cases were lubricated with oil, grease, or wax. The Germans adopted chamber flutes after investigating a captured Russian aircraft cannon. The Russians apparently invented chamber flutes, and the Germans adopted the idea for their roller bolt rifles.









But prior to WW2, Hatcher explains why certain actions require case lubrication.

Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933
Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types , by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC.


Quote:
Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..

There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.

However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.

Blish Principle….There is no doubt that this mechanism can be made to operate as described, provided the cartridge are lubricated, …. That this type of mechanism actually opens while there is still considerable pressure in the cartridge case is evident from the fact that the gun does not operate satisfactorily unless the cartridges are lubricated.

Thompson Sub-Machine Gun: … Owing to the low pressure involved in the pistol cartridge, it is not necessary to lubricate the case.

“Blow-Forward” Mechanism: We have seen above (blowback mechanism) that some method must be provided to hold the breech block against the barrel when the gun is fired, because otherwise the pressure of the powder gas pushing back on the cartridge case would drive the breech block back away from the barrel and let the cartridge out while the explosion was going on. With the blow-back gun the breech block is allowed to move in this manner, but is made heavy enough so that the movement does not occur too quickly.

Instead of allowing the breech block to move back, it would be quite possible to attach the stock and al the frame-work of the gun firmly to the breech block and then allow the barrel to move forward when the gun is fired instead of allowing the breech block to move back. Several automatic pistols, notably the Schwarzlose, have been constructed on this principle.

In 1917 an inventor appeared at Springfield Armory with a machine gun made to fire the Krag army cartridge, having the framework of the gun solidly fixed and the barrel loosely mounted so that it could move forward against the action of a spring when the gun was fired. This gun operated, but it was necessary to grease the cartridge case to prevent the front part of the case, expanded by the pressure, from sticking to the barrel as it moved forward.

One trouble with this system is that it greatly accentuates the recoil. The normal tendency of the explosion in the cartridge case is to push the bullet in one direction and the cartridge and breech block in the other. When there is no provision for locking the breech block to the barrel but instead it is attached to the framework and stock of the gun, and the barrel left loose, it is obvious that the explosion drives not only the breech block but the stock to which it is attached back against the shooter’s shoulder with a considerable amount of violence.

This inventor had besides his machine gun, a semiautomatic shoulder rifle built on this principle, though the mechanism was only crudely worked out. He demonstrated this gun by firing a number of shots with it and then allowed the Armory officials to fire it. I fired one or two shots with it and the kick was so terrific that I felt as though a mule had landed on of his hind feet on my shoulder. I seemed to be kicked back two or three feet from where I was standing and tears actually ran out of my eyes from the blow, which marvel as to how the inventor, who was a frail, pathetic looking man, managed to shoot it without any signs of discomfort. After showing his model he returned to a nearby factory to complete the mechanism but a few days later we were distressed to learn that he had taken his new gun and deliberately blown his head off with it. Probably the kick was too much for him after all.

Melvin Johnson wrote an article prior to WW2, trying to make the case that his rifle was better than the M1 Garand. His basic pitch was that a recoil operated mechanism was better than a gas operated one. But at least he talks about the issues of case lubrication:

What Price Automatic?

Melvin M. Johnson, Jr. Army Ordnance Oct 1936
Quote:
Several methods have been devised to retard the unlocking of the block or bolt mechanically. The most appealing point in such a system is consolidation of the “automatic” parts in the breech. However, there is one serious difficulty. The conventional cartridge case does not lend itself to such a system unless adequate lubrication is provided, such as grease or wax or oil on the cases or in the chamber. Thus, the Schwarzlose machine gun has an automatic oil pump: the caliber 30 Thompson rifle (not the caliber 45 T.S.-M.G.) had oil pad in the magazine, and special “wax” was needed on the cases designed to be used in the Pedersen rifle.
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Old June 20, 2017, 03:01 PM   #41
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So the thousands of rounds I've fired with case lube residue left on have not destroyed my rifle after all . Thanks for the warm and fuzzy confirmation Slamfire.
I am glad to help. What you have observed, is that your firearms have not been damaged, I am certain you have not observed excessive pressures, traceable to a coating of light lubricant alone. Nullius in verba is the motto of the Royal Society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society It means, on the word of no one. The Royal Society was established in 1660, in a time period when anyone claiming that the scientific writings of the ancient Greeks were in error, was likely to be fined or imprisoned, or burnt at the stake for heresy. Science was based on the authority of these Greeks. These guys had been dead for thousands of years, were doing the best they could at the time, but, in most things, they were wrong. The Royal Society took the position that observations in the real world take precedence over authority. This was just at the beginning of what we call science, which is based on observation and repeatability.

Hatcherism and Ackleyism are authority based systems, and because my observations in the real world do not support them, and they lack repeatability, they must be fallacious.
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Old June 20, 2017, 03:06 PM   #42
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My point was that an engineer start out knowing where or at what point there future product will fail then dedign something that can withstand that failure point . The way i read your post was to say the enggineer starts out "assuming" a failure point and designs from there . I may have misread or misunderstood what you wtote .

The rest of what you posted seems to cofirm my point . The designs them selves will not work right with out oilers or lubed cases . Those are all military use first actions or designed in hopes of a military adopting them .

It may be me but i never see these mordern oiled firearms at the range . I guess I'll look a little closer from now on .
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If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY
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Old June 20, 2017, 03:15 PM   #43
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It may be me but i never see these mordern oiled firearms at the range . I guess I'll look a little closer from now on
You can see an historical example in this video:

Type 92 Japanese Machine gun, oiler function minute 14

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/type...james-d-julia/



Unless you happen to see a historical example at the range, I very much doubt you will ever see a weapon system using greased or oiled cases. Chamber flutes sent them all to the ash heap of history.



HK 91 chamber



P7 9mm Pistol chamber flutes



It has been so long that the American shooting community has forgotten about weapon systems that used grease or had oilers. Chamber flutes break the friction between case and chamber, and there are companies using chamber flutes to improve the ejection of AR15 rifles.

XTRAN Technology:






They are very careful not to call what they are doing "case lubrication" because of all the hysteria they will hear from Hatcherites and Ackleyites, but if you read their literature, that is what they are doing.
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Old June 20, 2017, 03:46 PM   #44
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Anyone who is curious should take a look at the work of former Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories engineer, Varmint Al. He has finite element analysis done on fancy government software that shows no petroleum lubricant can produce a low enough coefficient of friction to stop the case from absorbing at least some of the bolt thrust. Not even when the chamber and brass are given a mirror finish. He also has practical determinations of coefficient of friction described at other places on his site. Also FEA's of barrel harmonics and the conclusion that these "vibrations" are not actually what determines initial muzzle deflection that affects POI. Give the animations time to load to watch what exaggerated deformation looks like. Pretty good stuff.
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Old June 20, 2017, 05:36 PM   #45
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I use Imperial exclusively, and just wipe it off w/ a paper towel. But it doesn't matter if not all comes off, as it won't disturb anything. Just make sure you use it extremely sparingly as the package directions state. I use so little to FL resize everything that you can't see it.
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Old June 20, 2017, 07:09 PM   #46
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Unless you happen to see a historical example at the range, I very much doubt you will ever see a weapon system using greased or oiled cases. Chamber flutes sent them all to the ash heap of history
You keep making my point for me haha . Who cares if once upon a time oiled cases were the norm . They aren't any more so don't go lubing up cartridges that were never design for it , is all I'm saying . I did not want to imply I don't think oiled or greased cases were ever used . I know they were , only that there is a reason that modern guns don't use lube so why are we lubing cases if it's not needed ?

FWIW Slamfire I love your posts and have learned a lot from you over the years on multiple forums . I'm really half joking with this argument and having a little fun . I'm saying this so we don't end up in some sort of feud I like to play devils advocate sometimes
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Tolerate- allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of something that one does not necessarily like or agree with , without interference.
If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY

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Old June 20, 2017, 07:23 PM   #47
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If wiping lube off of 300 cases is too much work. Then I suggest that you get rid of your semi-auto... and use a bolt action. Then you won't be shooting up the brass so fast and you will have plenty of time to wipe the cases down with a solvent rag. Get rid of the ARs.
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Old June 20, 2017, 08:40 PM   #48
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I think the OP was just looking for an easy way of doing what he is already doing, weather it needed to be done or not. he/she was also looking for a way to speed up the trimming proses (refer to post 1). I didn't see that discussed at all.

It has been a good read, but I think we digress. In the information provided for the case of not removing the lube I see no reference to modern firearms. The machining and design proses has most definitely improved since the dated materials referenced in this matter. Also I might point out that using a dry tumbling media most certainly will not remove ALLof the sizing wax. I would think you would need a chemical wash of some sort to have 100% clinically pure clean brass after sizing or anything for that matter. Just touching it with an un-gloved hand would transfer some amount of human oil to the brass. It is silly to think that the picture of what I would assume is a 30-06 case with the gob bees wax on it is a field ready round. Would you put that in your coat pocket or in a tubular magazine, or even a box mag for that matter, I think not. For the bench or any other controlled environment sure. I do not disagree that oil and or wax on a cartridge may be necessary in the function of period machine guns and possibly some rifles. But I don't see the need for it in modern utilitarian rifles that are properly maintained especially when in the field where one might encounter adverse conditions, or where one might simply choose to unload the rifle and try again tomorrow.

Where is F-Guffey when you need him on the shoulder bump issue. Thought for sure he would chime in.

Again thanks for the read every one. This is a great forum to gain knowledge and understanding of the things I love.
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Old June 20, 2017, 09:05 PM   #49
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They aren't any more so don't go lubing up cartridges that were never design for it , is all I'm saying . I did not want to imply I don't think oiled or creased cases were ever used .
The foremost reason I am firing lubed cases is to save money. Money is important to me, I do not have vast reserves of the stuff, and what I do have is not growing as fast as the rate of inflation. I have noticed that cartridges and brass are increasing at several times the rate of inflation. Has anyone priced the cost of 300 H&H Magnum cases or found cheap 257 Roberts brass? I waited for years, till this year, when I was able to buy new 257 Roberts brass at $2.00 a case! Ugh! I don't want to stretch the stuff so much that it develops case head separations on first firings. Only air heads are so rich to be profligate with their money.

If you don't know what a case head separation looks like, this is what it looks like:



On the way to earning my Distinguished Rifleman Badge with an M1a, I took a set of 100 LC 64 cases 23 reloads without a single case head separation. I rubbed Johnson paste wax on the outside of the cases and buffed the rapid fire rounds. Sometimes I left the case lube on the cases, but I did not like the greasy feel, and of course, no range I shot at has hot and cold running water, or a bathroom! I did have cases that developed neck splits or body splits. I sectioned those cases. R stands for the number of times reloaded. No case developed any case head necking. The usual advise for cases in M1's and M1a's is to load them five times and toss them, because these rifles are very bad about stretching cases. I saved a lot of money by not ruining good LC NM cases. I stopped using them when the primer pockets enlarged.



I have this Marlin 336 that has a huge chamber and the base to shoulder distance of the chamber is way out of spec. If I had not lubricated my 30-30 cases on the first firing, they probably would have been stretched so much that I would not have been able to use them again, or at most, a couple of times, before the case head detached. Instead, the case slid to the bolt face, the side walls were not stretched, and the shoulders folded out to produce a stress free perfect fit to the chamber. As it was, I lubed them before firing, and they shot well. I challenge anyone to shoot ten shot groups at 200 yards with their 30-30 lever action and keep all the shots in the seven inch ten ring.






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Old June 20, 2017, 10:47 PM   #50
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I am glad to help. What you have observed, is that your firearms have not been damaged, I am certain you have not observed excessive pressures, traceable to a coating of light lubricant alone.
I was more being facetious to those who would imply that a little residual lube left on the case would be detrimental to function. I knew this already and didn't need confirmation.

With that being said, however, keep on posting. I'm eating what you're serving sir, and learning that there may be applications to purposefully lube live rounds. Especially in instances of fire-forming brass. Good stuff.
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