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May 27, 2008, 02:21 PM | #101 | |
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Another point i think many people on this thread are missing.... Why did the US Military change to .223 from a .30? Why did the US Military change from .45acp to 9x19? |
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May 27, 2008, 02:24 PM | #102 | |
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My personal dog would snarl at you if you presented a firearm [or cigarette or alcolhol] but would whine and start to move about incessantly if in a room or would trot off to his house if outside. If you were to make ANY assertive gesture with what he perceived as a threat you'd be bitten. Not quite the same thing, but we agree that their awareness is keener than many give them credit for.
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May 27, 2008, 02:30 PM | #103 |
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Interestingly enough, I tried on a friend's pistol this weekend - and HK45 in an DeSantis IWB rig and guess what? It felt just fine. In fact, it was lighter than a Gov't Model - or was perceived by me - to be so.
Unless you have lower back issues or are overweight or use a rope for a belt there's no issues with carrying a full-sized pistol. Check your gear (i.e., belt and holster selections).
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"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783 |
May 27, 2008, 02:55 PM | #104 | |
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according to http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf:
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Penetrates 11.6-15.8 inches http://www.brassfetcher.com/WaltherP22test.html KelTec p32: Penetrates 13.3-16.4 inches http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handload...t%20test).html KelTec p3at: Penetrated to 16.0 inches 5 out of 5 times http://www.brassfetcher.com/95gr%20F...ed%20cone.html 5" 45acp: Penetrated to 13.1-13.7 inches http://www.brassfetcher.com/230%20gr...ter%20SXT.html |
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May 27, 2008, 03:24 PM | #105 | |||||
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Caliber may be towards the bottom for you but in my limited amount of actual shootouts it played a major role IMO. |
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May 27, 2008, 03:47 PM | #106 | |
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Primlantah, Try shooting a true mouse gun like NAA's mini revolvers, berettas 21, or any other "miniature" gun at the gelatin. There is a difference particularly in 22lr from ultra short barrels. Try shooting hard objects with them.
My NAA 22lr penetrates only 1 inch of a phone book. My Walther p-22 almost doubled that with the same loads. Quote:
Yet another reason to carry a caliber capable of smashing bone and penetrating deep. |
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May 28, 2008, 11:09 AM | #107 | |
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3gun,
You are correct. But keep in mind my side in this debate supports both large and small calibers where ever applicable. My primary ccw is a double stacked 45. my favorite guns to carry when my 45 doesn't fit is a pm9 or my smith snub. If i owned lighter guns i would carry them occasionally too. I dont want people asking about my fanny pack or for my shirt to ride over the grip on a larger gun when jogging.. just dont want to think about it when its exercise time. Your next argument would be this is silly because its a small caliber...but when i dont want to think about my gun i still have choices that are better than nothing. Lets face it, i love guns but i don't want to carry pounds of guns all the time...<15 ounces is fine for me in some situations... of course most other times i grab the heavy 10+1 45. no one is saying smaller is better... we are saying smaller is sometimes more convenient and usually good enough. For the rare chance something extraordinary happens a peashooter is better than a pocket knife... I was trying to show this with my jello post earlier. Small bore does do it too... maybe not as well as large bore... but it gets there anyway. A bigger hole is a better hole in a SD situation but anything i posted above can make a hole that big enough for many(but not all) situations. Who is ready for any/everything anyway? Quote:
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May 28, 2008, 11:57 AM | #108 | |||||||||
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May 28, 2008, 12:04 PM | #109 | |
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May 28, 2008, 06:58 PM | #110 |
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When I have my 870 and rack the pump my dog takes a few steps back. Even when dry firing my 90Two or GP100 she looks at me like hmm this isn't good.
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May 28, 2008, 07:24 PM | #111 |
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David, I'm not going to go round and round with you. In my tests mouse gun calibers fired from the shorter barreled weapons are just not capable of penetrating similar objects to what was easily penetrated by heavier calibers. That means my uncle wouldn't have been able to get his hit/hits and my friend would have had to fire more rounds and hope for the best. To you that may not constitute a fact or justify the carrying of heavier but for me it does.
I have been taught that in a shoot out the one who hits first and hardest usually wins. I have seen that the potential to miss increases with the pressure of a shoot out. I realize that good combat hits are going to be difficult to achieve on a moving shooting target. I understand that penetration angles might not be ideal given the BG's movement. All of these have led me to the conclusion that I may not get the best angle or greatest of placement in an actual shootout. Relying on the puniest of cartridges, ones virtually incapable of smashing bone and continuing into the vitals, is just not for me. You feel good with a mouse and thats fine. I'll argue my points you argue yours. I do agree with you that in most of the already small odds of needing a gun a mouse will work. Its when things get ugly (actually having to use the gun) that I disagree with a mouse being adequate. It simply doesn't have what is needed to compete with the heavier calibers. If I'm gonna carry for the unlikely I might as well be ready with the biggest and best that I can conceal and control. |
May 28, 2008, 07:29 PM | #112 | |
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May 30, 2008, 06:28 PM | #113 | |||||||||||
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May 30, 2008, 07:07 PM | #114 | |
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Penetration is very important and going through sheetmetal is NOT the same as going through a jacket, a T-shirt, skin, muscle, bone and then organs. This thread is getting ridiculous.
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May 31, 2008, 07:23 AM | #115 | |||||
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BTW, My uncle hit Florida's lottery despite 14,000,000 to one odds. Quote:
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May 31, 2008, 11:30 PM | #116 |
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ISC
ISC I hear what you're saying and agree 100%.
Sure if I KNEW I was going to be getting into trouble I'd carry a .45 - no wait a 12 gauge - no wait I wouldn't go there! The point is most people don't carry 24/7 and don't need to so while out jogging the NAA is better than pointing your finger or a small knife. I would suggest upgrading to the .22 mag tho. And yes the dog might bite but while it was locked on my arm or leg I would stick that NAA in its ear. I figure they are contact range weapons.
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June 2, 2008, 05:10 PM | #117 | |
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June 2, 2008, 07:03 PM | #118 |
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DR & ISC, Why do you guys carry?
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June 3, 2008, 03:43 PM | #119 | |||
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June 3, 2008, 04:07 PM | #120 | ||||||||
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As I am heading off to Jamaica for a couple of weeks, you may have the last comment for a while. |
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June 3, 2008, 08:58 PM | #121 |
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Well, you can choose to carry the plastic mouse gun and go wrestle with bulldogs, Rottweilers and whatnot as well as multiple badguys, all of whom will take you by surprise. I'd bet the house on a well-conditioned, well-motivated Pit Bulldog or Rottweiler over you/me/him/her and any .380 "micro pistol" any day...
Stay safe.
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"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783 |
June 4, 2008, 12:10 AM | #122 |
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The title of this thread was, "the gun you have vs the gun at home". It wasn't, "The gun you wish you had when you didn't have anything" or, "the gun you would have if you expected a confrontation".
I won't be carrying anything tomorrow when I run, but the NAA .22 I just bought to replace the one I had years ago will be going running with me again soon. |
June 4, 2008, 08:39 AM | #123 | |
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Wha?
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You don't take your self-defense as seriously as perhaps you should and no amount of "justification" for not carrying will either convince me otherwise or truly rest your mind. Good "luck" on your run.
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"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783 |
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June 4, 2008, 09:45 AM | #124 |
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This one's been going in circles for awhile now, and civility has begun to decline, so -- it's closed.
pax |
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