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Old August 18, 2002, 08:09 AM   #26
rocko
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Join Date: May 27, 2001
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Quote:
The sale of current production European hi-cap unmarked magazines to the general public is illegal. You doubt this? Contact HK, Inc. directly at (703)450-1900.
Well, for legal advise you'd probably do better contacting a lawyer vs. HK USA. Unless there was some section of the law that I am missing, the following seems pretty clear:

"The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1).'"

This, of course, does not deal with the importation of such magazines - I'm sure it is illegal to knowingly import unmarked mags manufacturered post 9/94. But ownership and sales once incountry seem to be protected. Furthermore, if a mag is completely unmarked (as in not even with HK's super secret date coding system), and preban, unmarked mags were produced prior to the ban, how exactly does one tell the difference?

Quote:
We do report the sale of such magazines (when we find them or customers report them to us) to HK, Inc. in Sterling , VA., they (HK, Inc.) take whatever steps they see fit, and it is they who contact BATF regarding such sales of these magazines. We try to educate the general public as well as other dealers about the selling of such product so they don't get ripped off because of some peoples $greed$.
That may be, but it isn't what you stated originally in HKPRO. Somewhat better than contacting the authorities directly (I have no problems with the firearms community "policing" itself internally as I stated in a post above), if you go to HK with the expectation that they will go to the authorities themselves, it is almost just as bad. While perhaps HK USA did not import any preban mags themselves, it doesn't mean that no legal preban mags exist.

Perhaps it is your intent to keep people from getting ripped off, but in your (or one of your employee's) original HKPRO postings, it really did not come off that way. It certainly isn't HK's intent, or they would simply release the details of their date coding system (for those magazines that are not LEO marked, but coded) so people can easily make the determination themselves whether or not a mag is legal.

Quote:
HKPro.com has new posting rules due to sales of these types of magazines. They have taken the "good guy stance" as well. We support there move to prevent the sale of these types of magazines to the general public.
Tom can do anything Tom wants on his board. I don't blame him for changing the policy - if nothing else, it is likely just not worth the trouble or aggrivation for him. However, Tom changing policy on a private internet forum does not exactly set legal precedent.

Oh yeah, regarding what appeared to be a somewhat vieled threat of a libel suit against me (unless I am to interpret a private message with the subject of "libel" asking me if my ISP is such as such), libel would require that I made a false statement. Since I was simply relaying information posted by a user of the name "CSA" on HKPRO that claimed to represent your company, I don't think anything libelous was said.

Rocko
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Old August 18, 2002, 09:34 AM   #27
Ovoid
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Quote:
The sale of current production European hi-cap unmarked magazines to the general public is illegal. You doubt this? Contact HK, Inc. directly at (703)450-1900.
Why should one contact HK, Inc.? Do they make legislation in this country? Do they interpret legislation and make legal rulings on it? The fact is that the USC is quite clear: unmarked mags are presumed by law to be pre-ban. So, you are wrong in your above statement. Importation of unmarked mags is clearly illegal; "sale" of them in this country is clearly not.

Quote:
We support there move to prevent the sale of these types of magazines to the general public.
I don't think the board owner has said that he is trying to "prevent" the sale of these magazines to the "general public;" he merely does not want them sold on his board, which is reasonable. I wonder if he would be happy to know that you are implying that he agrees completely with your actions. Maybe he does.

You can go ahead and spin it any way you want, but you're a snitch, a rat, and no friend to gun owners in my opinion. You'll never see a penny from me. And I will not be shy about expressing my opinion about your actions to others, whether in person or in cyberspace. Threats about libel lawsuits will only encourage me.

Others, naturally, are entitled to their own views.
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Old August 19, 2002, 12:39 AM   #28
Wolf226
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Join Date: November 2, 2001
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Looks like Sturmgewehr may ban CSA

They are really stiring it up over there.
Check out this thread.....

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/ge...cgi?read=15818
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Old August 19, 2002, 10:44 AM   #29
GunGeek
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Location: Florida
Posts: 287
My favorite CSA quote from strumgewehr was this:
Quote:
Those of you who just don't care about this issue or the sale of this type of contrband are part of the overall problem, and in more ways than one in this country.
I care very strongly on this issue actually, I care because I feel the ban is illegal under the second admendment. They should not be considered "contraband". If you really cared about the sport you would put all this time, energy, and money into repealing the ban, not inforcing it. How big is your companies contributions to the NRA and GOA? You sir, and types like you, are what is wrong with this country. It's all about the mighty dollar to you.

I had never heard of CSA before this, but now I assure I never will buy from them, and I will tell everyone I know not to.
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Old August 19, 2002, 03:34 PM   #30
Wolf226
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Curious - I've seen several posts on Subguns..but they are quickly deleted...

Several folks have posted about this on the Bower's boards, in the BOI, in the Moderated Discussion Board and in the Non-NFA Discussion.

Looks like someone on Subguns is looking out for Cal's and deleting any threads that reference what they did immediately.
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Old August 21, 2002, 12:59 AM   #31
Wolf226
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CSA Bannished From Sturmgewehr.com

Hey Rocko,

Thanks for all the good work you put in.
At least one site has had enough of CSA.

HKPro also posted there emphatically distancing themselves from CSA.


http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/ge...cgi?read=16014
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Old August 26, 2002, 10:44 PM   #32
TBAUS
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Join Date: August 15, 2002
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 111
I just read all the replies to this issue. It seems irrefutable that HK high cap mags were manufacture prior to the cutoff date. It also seems likely that HK-USA doesn't have any of these pre-ban high cap mags. To assume a mag is illegal because the price is good and it is unmarked is ludicrous. If you assume these unmarked mags are illegal than you may as well assume all unmarked high-cap mags are illegal. ( That defective logic in and of itself would have probably landed you a job in the Janet Reno/ Clinton justice system.) If you decide you don't want to buy any of these mags, that certainly is your prerogative, and is fine. If you call the ATF because you think it simply is too good to be true and because HK-USA says it's so, then IMO you are like so many other sheep being walked to slaughter. It seems to me one company ( Cals) who could not compete resorted to underhanded tactics to try and compete. I certainly won't buy anything from them.
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Old September 4, 2002, 04:56 PM   #33
Joe Mamma
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Join Date: October 1, 2001
Posts: 33
The following link is to a story that is NOT true. It's long but, just read the last paragraph before you start reading the whole thing. It makes me sick and seems very appropriate to this discussion . . .

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/guns/sundown.htm


I can also say that I have bought full size magazines from Robert, and would do so again in a heartbeat. He is a true American businessman and I am happy to support him. Heck, we should all buy something from him just to make a statement.

Joe Mamma
(No, I am not Robert nor do I work for him or . . . )
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Old September 25, 2002, 12:43 PM   #34
Robert Johnson
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Join Date: November 19, 2001
Location: Peoria, Arizona USA
Posts: 35
First I would like to thank Rocko for arguing my side of the case since I had no idea about this thread until now. Second I would like to thank Dave for bringing this string to my attention.

Second any person who says anything I sell is illegal is 100% full of crap. And yes that includes Cal Sporting goods and the idiots that run it.

CSA can report me for anything they want; the ATF never has and never will have a problem with me. I do nothing illegal and I have never imported high capacity magazines (preban or postban) or any other vital component into the USA. Regarding mags (which are about 1% of my business) I have bought magazines in the USA via private sellers, gun shops, gun manufacturers, distributors, surplus importers, firearm importers and gun shows.

Around the nation I have a crystal clear reputation and I am well known for being able to buy large amounts of product, but only if the price is cheap. My reputation is above reproach, especially when compared to a maggot like CSA.

CSA is after only one thing, Money. I'm not the first person he has had a problem with and I won’t be the last. Anybody that undercuts him or other HK Ink (HK USA) dealers is a criminal as far as he is concerned. CSA believes I don’t have the right to import or sell HK91 parts or any other HK product.

Well CSA can go to hell and if the ATF wants to listen to his BS, fine let them. They can check every sale and manifest I have. I just hope they send their investigation bill to CSA when they are done.

Robert Johnson
623-362-3459
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Old September 30, 2002, 11:47 AM   #35
tetchaje
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Robert,
You have e-mail on the Earthlink address listed here.
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