Flash Mobs, beatings and our society breakdown

[matolman1]

Headline:
Mar 22, 2010

Hundreds Pack South Street During Flash Mob

At least two people were seriously assaulted as hundreds of people gathered on South Street Saturday night during another flash mob.

Surveillance video shows hundreds of people invading the intersection of 8th and South Streets, filling the street and surrounding a vehicle at about 9 p.m.

Two blocks away, Olympia Pizza employee Seth Kaufman was beaten.

"40 to 50 punches I took. 20 kicks. I just stood my ground as best I could and fought them off," Kaufman said.

Kaufman and restaurant operator Paul Psihogios were trying to keep the unruly crowd from entering the business.

"I'm just trying to hold off the crowd, hold the door," said Psihogios.

At 15th and South Street, a 27-year-old woman was brutally attacked after being surrounded by scores of people.

"She had a broken nose and they knocked out two teeth," said Good Samaritan Rick Almeid, who aided the victim. "She was just an innocent young girl."

Police eventually pushed the crowd up South Street and onto on to Broad Street, yelling that once curfew passed, they'd start loading up buses.

Authorities say they got word through text messages that a flash mob might be forming and quickly deployed.

Three males were arrested on unrelated incidents, including 18-year-old Parrish Kendall.

No arrests have been made in the beatings.

Police say they vow not to allow these incidents to repeat.

"We're going to be stern, we're going to be swift and to be honest with you, we're going to do what we have to do to protect the city," said Deputy Police Commissioner Richard Ross.


I placed this article in the Training and Tactics forum for a specific reason. I am curious if anyone here (including LEO's and military) has ever had an experience with mobs/riots where the use of a firearm was the difference between being mobbed and lynched/beaten/killed and escape.

I know that in Israel we quell riots first with less lethal measures (CS Gas, then rubber bullets) then if all else fails and life is in danger, live ammunition to the lower body, then live ammo to kill. These measures typically work without having to resort to live ammo or killing (for the most part, but not always).

Here in the USA, with Gang warfare in the streets, does anyone here have the experience to see if the firearm did help in this type of situation?

[Wildalaska]

Here in the USA, with Gang warfare in the streets, does anyone here have the experience to see if the firearm did help in this type of situation?

This isnt Israel and there isnt "gang warfare" in the streets that statitically will affect lawabiding citizens.

WildcarryonthoughAlaska ™

[Balog]

Do you have a link to this story?

[Casimer]

It's probably this one - http://www.philly.com/dailynews/loca...he_city__.html

There have been several incidents in Philadelphia, on South Street and in Center City. They'd started out as being relatively innocent, but have become violent.

[kgpcr]

That one is real easy to deal with. Dont go there.

[matolman1]

I was referring to the America that is located outside of "wild alaska." Alaskans have no crime, only harmony and snow. But thank you for your input, it was well thought out.

[Jim March]

A mob like that doesn't sound very committed to the attacks, or possessing any courage to speak of.

If I ever have to face down anything like that, and I realize the odds are ridiculously low, a couple of 'em are getting some full-house 357maggie exploding head action. Then we'll see how the rest feel about the matter.

[Wildalaska]

I was referring to the America that is located outside of "wild alaska." Alaskans have no crime, only harmony and snow. But thank you for your input, it was well thought out.

Your welcome.

I just spent 4 days in San Antonio Texas, didnt see any mobs there, or didnt even feel any fear, especially while eating dinner on the Mexican side of town.

Unarmed.

Felt safe in Seattle too. And recently in NYC.

Guess its all how you carry yourself and view life.

If I ever have to face down anything like that, and I realize the odds are ridiculously low, a couple of 'em are getting some full-house 357maggie exploding head action. Then we'll see how the rest feel about the matter.

Keep your prepaid legal fun topped off.


WildithinklifeisbeautifulAlaska TM

[BlayGlock]

I have thought about this happening. I personally think the best thing to do is to get off the street ASAP. Gun would be my last resort.

[pax]

All right. A few comments have gotten off-topic. I've left them in place, but ask that posts from this point forward stay with the original topic.

The topic is: I am curious if anyone here (including LEO's and military) has ever had an experience with mobs/riots where the use of a firearm was the difference between being mobbed and lynched/beaten/killed and escape.

If you don't have a specific answer to that, don't post here.

pax

[Skans]

I found myself in the middle of a riot in St. Petersburg Florida, 4th of July 1987. I saw the event that started it:

The traffic was all jammed up - folks were trying to get down to the Pier to watch the fireworks show. There was a Pickup Truck with several white girls riding in the back. A car with several black guys was behind the pickup truck. The girls were minding their own business - I know, because I was watching them (they were cute). Several black guys got out of the car, grabbed a couple of the girls out of the pickup truck and threw them down into the street. Then a group of redneck-white guys hopped out of their trucks with bats and ax handles and started beating the black guys - after that there were blacks and whites rioting in the street.

I was with a date and stayed in my car. I had a gun (Jennings J-22) ready to fire in case someone tried to break my window or get at me. As soon as I saw a hole to drive out of there, I did and got the heck away as fast as I could. This event never even made it to the news.

Several things I learned from this incident:

1. rioting can break out anytime there are large crouds jammed together.
2. A Jennings J-22, though better than nothing, doesn't give you a warm-fuzzy feeling in this situation (this is one of the reasons I tend to prefer full-sized pistols with large capacities)
3. Staying in your car and getting the heck out of there ASAP is the best thing you can do.

If you think rioting doesn't happen in American, IT DOES, and probably more often than you know about.

(the above was posted before reading Pax's warning - if she deems inapropriate, she has permission to delete it)

[matolman1]

Skans, that is what I am looking for, thank you. Your "it happened to me" experience with this sudden mob attack has a lot to teach others and no matter what people might wish to believe, the "Flash Mob" is gaining in popularity and the advancement of instant messaging technology on a grand scale has made it very easy to organize.

I tend to look back at the L.A. Riots, when we saw Reginald Denny stop his vehicle, get dragged out and beaten almost to death. I assume that the reason why people fail to "put the pedal to the metal" when their surrounding environment is obviously very dangerous is due to the universal human phobia of close range, interpersonal aggression. Now obviously, the LA Riots was not a case of a "flash mob" or an organized riot. It was pure chaos and Reginald Denny mistakenly drove into it.

The lesson would be that if you are in a vehicle, to get out of the area at all costs, to use your vehicle as your primary 'weapon' (escape, evade or as a deadly weapon if the threat calls for it.)

Between the pistol and the vehicle, the vehicle wins as the best source of escape.

[skifast]

If retreat is not an option and your life is in danger, identify the leader and shoot him. Shoot anyone that keeps coming. Hopefully most will turn and run.

This is a good reason to carry a high cap auto.

[KLRANGL]

This is a good reason to carry a high cap auto.

Or an extra magazine, if practicable... I don't think a flash mob would be the driving factor in an CCW setup, but it is certainly something worth considering, especially for the more urban crowd among us...

[kraigwy]

[qoute]I was referring to the America that is located outside of "wild alaska." Alaskans have no crime, only harmony and snow. But thank you for your input, it was well thought out.[/quote]

You Sir, must not have spent a lot of time in Alaska. I was a cop in Anchorage for 20 years and I find you're comment laughable.

Get off the cruise ship and visit Fairview, Muldoon, Spenard, Mountain View, and get back with us.

Read the online version of the Anchorage Daily News, www.adn.com

Tell that young cop and his family, the cop that was riddled with bullets while quietly setting in his car writing reports in Fairview.

[matolman1]

Kraig..I guess you missed the irony dripping from the post...Read between the lines to understand my response to mr wildalaska....

[sakeneko]

Mato, most "flash mobs" are not violent. I've been around several in the San Francisco Bay area, all of them a) spontaneous, b) non-violent, and c) silly. :-) Okay, in one case there were a bunch of guys throwing nerf balls and stuffed toys at each other and a few passersby, but IMHO that doesn't qualify as "violent". I also had a friend who arranged his wedding as a flash mob at a favorite public waterfront location in Oakland. The local beat cops were unofficially told about it, and agreed to show up only after fifteen or twenty minutes to let the service complete before asking everyone to "move along", at which point the mob headed for a local pub to celebrate.

That doesn't (of course) mean that under different circumstances, a flash mob couldn't turn violent. Any crowd can. But the "flash mob" phenomenon, in my experience, is largely nonviolent, at least on the U.S. west coast.

As to using a gun to protect yourself or others in a mob.... My only experience with a crowd that frightened me wasn't in the U.S. It was in Sarajevo in April 1991. I didn't have a gun, and given the numbers of guns I saw being waved around by police and others, I very much doubt that a gun would have helped me get out alive. Being sober and thinking quickly did; I figured out that my best bet was to get *back on the train* and keep going, even though I'd originally planned to stay in Sarajevo for a few days and visit old friends.

I carry now, and am glad to have that as an option to protect myself in extreme circumstances, but I don't mistake that as a cure-all for violence. In the crowds that I've been part of (mostly human rights or political demonstrations), *if* the crowd turned violent I'd expect a gun to be gasoline on the fire. I'd keep it concealed, and get out.

[sakeneko]

WildAlaska, trust me -- mob violence does happen in some neighborhoods in America, usually in cities, and it affects innocent residents of those neighborhoods. You and I don't live in those neighborhoods, but I rather suspect that has more to do with our not having been born there and growing up there.

In your case, you appear to substitute using your wits for a gun as a defense against violence. In your case, it works. Might not always work for everyone everywhere.

[Skans]

If retreat is not an option and your life is in danger, identify the leader and shoot him. Shoot anyone that keeps coming. Hopefully most will turn and run.

I probably wouldn't have believed that a violent riot could simply erupt from a crowd of people if I didn't experience it first hand. Several other things I remember going through my mind:

1. Things escalate very quickly...literally within seconds.

2. You don't want to be a "lone ranger" jumping into the middle of a riot thinking that you can "help" anyone. I couldn't even get to those girls if I wanted to, and you don't know who's "good" and who's "bad" anyway.

3. I knew that my job was to protect the girl who was with me in my car - leaving her to go protect someone else would have been stupid.......still, I somehow feel guilty for not being able to help the girls that got attacked.

4. I had my gun drawn, chambered and cocked. But, the only way I was going to use it was if someone was pressed up against my window trying to get inside of my car. I figured that the little pea-shooter would only be effective at close to point blank range.

5. There were no cops anywhere to be found. None. I saw no cops, heard no sirens, nothing as I was able to make my way out of the center of the mob. The riot went away almost as fast as it started. Lots of bloody guys staggering around as I was driving out of there.

[Puntmefar]

well i personaly was raised in Detroit that is undouptably a rough town (when i grew up there) and i would say gang warfare would have been a over statement. There is gang violence here as is any ware to a degree. However the bigger concearn in my opinion is the same as anyware home invasion,personal assult,car jacking, ect ....that exist every place in the world its not a U.S.A. thing. what im wandering is would the use of a gun be apropriate by a citizen not LOE or military they have a job to do where a citizn simply has to survive is it good judgement to fire on a crowd that verry possibably has inocnt persons traped in it in the same situation as your self, or even firing a warning shot in the air so the bullet comes down at a unknown site or a diriction you cant see past the crowd. Would it be more aproprate to protect your firearm form being taken and try to escape rather than stand your ground against a mob out numbering you? property can be repaired or replaced life can not this is just my opinion and i do welcome other veiws.

[BlueTrain]

Not long ago, a couple of months perhaps, a crowd was celebrating the victory of some college game in College Park, Maryland, just outside Washington, D.C., at the University of Maryland. I don't recall the details but the police responded with policemen on horses. Since I wasn't there, I couldn't say if it was justified or not but that's one department's response to what they call a riot.

[retiredcoasty]

Wildalaska, I own a real estate company and I feel ‘uncomfortable’ often while showing properties. I have sold and shown crack houses, properties with grow rooms and homes where firearms (probably illegal ones) sitting around the house. Often times I am forced to walk by pit bulls that are definitely ‘working’ as guard dogs. I sold a three family home that had a bullet hole at head level just to the right of the front door. I routinely encounter hookers, drug dealers, thugs and other outstanding sections of society. I make sure that I carry when I go to such wonderful holes. I have been threatened before. I have had to back some people down. I don’t like it, but it comes with the territory.

Although I have never encountered a mob, I have been confronted by four or five wonderful citizens.

[ranburr]

I agree with WildAlaska. I have to say that I am just not worried about riots in my area. There have been two occasions where I expected it and nothing happened. The first was the massive hurricane Rita evacuation of the Houston area. Cars were backed up for well over a hundred miles. It was one of the hottest days of the yr, cars were running out of gas and over heating. It took me 21 hrs to make a three hr drive. I had an AR on the seat beside me because it looked like a powder keg ready to go off at any minute. Nothing ever happened. Incidentally, a diesel is worth its' wt in gold. When days are hot, and traffic not moving, you can keep cool in the A/C while gas engines are over heating. The second time was when I stayed home and rode out hurricane Ike. Ike caused massive damage in the area. Everyone was expecting looting and vandalism, (especially since many of the Katrina trouble makers now reside in the Houston area). Once again nothing happened. I do believe that certain parts of the country (L.A., N.O., etc), can experience this type of behavior. But, it will never happen in the vast majority of this country.

[Eskimo]

well i personaly was raised in Detroit that is undouptably a rough town (when i grew up there) and i would say gang warfare would have been a over statement. There is gang violence here as is any ware to a degree. However the bigger concearn in my opinion is the same as anyware home invasion,personal assult,car jacking, ect ....that exist every place in the world its not a U.S.A. thing. what im wandering is would the use of a gun be apropriate by a citizen not LOE or military they have a job to do where a citizn simply has to survive is it good judgement to fire on a crowd that verry possibably has inocnt persons traped in it in the same situation as your self, or even firing a warning shot in the air so the bullet comes down at a unknown site or a diriction you cant see past the crowd. Would it be more aproprate to protect your firearm form being taken and try to escape rather than stand your ground against a mob out numbering you? property can be repaired or replaced life can not this is just my opinion and i do welcome other veiws.

You do know that a falling bullet wont severely injure anyone, right?

[Atlatlien]

Hopefully Eskimo's not serious. Bullets fired into the air come back down with fatal results. This boy in Atlanta died New Years Eve while sitting in church playing his video game.

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/news/22106539/detail.html