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Old July 21, 2021, 09:25 PM   #1
Metal god
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Loading lead bullets in 30-30 ????

Hey guys and gals

I just bought a bunch of these bullets but have never loaded pure lead bullets in any rifle cartridge .



So what's the rules on loading lead in center fire rifle cartridges . Seems if I want I could push these upwards of 2k+ fps ? should these have gas checks to do so ? Do I need to keep these at 1200fps or below , not really sure where to start here let alone finish .

Powders I have are IMR 4895/4064/8208xbr , H-335 . Haven't dove to deep yet but I have Unique , 2400 , H-110 as well

Thanks in advance
MG
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Old July 22, 2021, 10:52 AM   #2
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Try this link: https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php
There is formula to relate pressure to hardness.
Get the pressure for your proposed 2000 fps load and plug into the formula. If the result is much higher than the 18 shown for your bullets you may want to back-off on velocity.
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Old July 22, 2021, 10:59 AM   #3
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I loaded those same bullets over IMR-4320 to 2,200 with no problems whatsoever. Note my '94 has a 24" barrel. Have fun!
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Old July 22, 2021, 11:03 AM   #4
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I load powder coated 120gr to 2500fps

.30-30 should be loaded with lead.
@2100-2200 GPS, those should be great.
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Old July 22, 2021, 04:01 PM   #5
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I did that calculation and it says I need a bnl of almost 30 which can’t be right . Regular jacketed bullet likely aren’t much harder then that .

I have some 4320 but since it’s now discontinued I don’t want to use it for any new loads .
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Old July 22, 2021, 06:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
I just bought a bunch of these bullets but have never loaded pure lead bullets in any rifle cartridge .
Just to be clear, those are not pure lead bullets. They are lead alloy, and much harder than pure lead. You probably just meant unjacketed, but "pure lead" has a specific meaning when talking about bullets.

The pistol powders Unique, 2400 and H-110 are not suitable for full power loads in the .30-30 but can serve very well with lead bullets and reduced velocity loads.

Work up your loads, watching for leading, hard cast lead (depending on both the Alloy AND the fit in the barrel) will usually run up to 1800fps+ without issues, and can be driven up to approx 2200fps often. Gas checks are recommended for the top end velocity levels but may not be needed, OR may be needed well before reaching top velocities, it depends on the bullet alloy, powder charge burning characteristics and bullet fit in the barrel. Too big can result in leading and so can too small. You want 0.001-002" over groove diameter for best results.

Be aware that a lot of the load data for cast bullets in .30-30 are for "mid-range" loads often using pistol powders and running between 12-1600 fps. This is not the maximum achievable, tis just what they chose to list.

I recommend getting a Lyman "M" die with the .30 caliber expander. The Lyman expander uses a two step profile, one to expand the neck of the case and then there is a step to flare the case mouth. Flaring the case mouth GREATLY improves the ease of loading lead bullets and eliminates shaving or other distortions possible when seating. Don't need to over do it, just flare enough so the bullet will sit up straight in the case mouth.

DO use an appropriate level of roll crimp. Partly to hold the bullet in place during recoil, but mostly to keep it in place in the tube magazine against the spring pressure and the impact inertia of the other rounds in the tube both during recoil and during the feeding cycle.
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Old July 22, 2021, 09:33 PM   #7
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The formula you are referring to is likely the one derived from Richard Lee's work on avoiding base distortion to achieve maximum accuracy. You can, however, shoot faster. It is just that target accuracy will not be quite as sharp, based on Lee's testing. It should still be just fine for general hunting purposes.

To shoot in the 2200 fps range, you will probably be using a powder that peaks somewhere around 35,000 psi, like a common magnum handgun load. That's not too much for your bullets, but you might get better accuracy by using a poly-wad. This is just a disc cut out of a plastic sheet using a sharpened case mouth. 1/16" low-density polyethylene (LDPE) was the original material used, but at higher pressure and temperatures. For what you have you could try just a milk carton. You stick the p-wad to the base of the bullet with a little lube or hotmelt glue before seating. This absorbs some of the peak heat by starting to melt, thus sparing the lead as much heat exposure. Powder coat on the base can do much the same thing.
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Old July 22, 2021, 11:33 PM   #8
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Curious, why is your target velocity 2200 fps? If you are hunting bears, pigs or deer, a velocity of 1700 fps will anchor them within 150 yards. Go easy on your wallet, gun and shoulder.
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Old July 22, 2021, 11:46 PM   #9
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Not wanting velocity for big game or Long Range, I am content at 1200 fps or so.
Same as my BPCRs.
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Old July 23, 2021, 08:48 AM   #10
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I have no target velocity only pointed out what the manuals give as max velocity. That said I’d think those bullets at 1800fps would be pretty good for just about anything Id want them for . Also fwiw these will be fired in an old (to me ) sears 30-30 bolt action . A lever gun is on my short list but that will likely be in 44 or 357 before 30-30 .
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Old July 23, 2021, 01:15 PM   #11
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6gr of TiteGroup, Bullseye, Clays, 700X, AA2, etc. will yield just slightly subsonic velocities and good plinking accuracy.

Use a 270W casing to flare the 30-30 casemouth.
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Old July 23, 2021, 07:20 PM   #12
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I was loading them with 7g of red dot for the Win94 I used to have.

Tony
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Old July 23, 2021, 08:31 PM   #13
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For a quick look/approx.... (even though the bullet below is gas-checked):

Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 160, LYM LFNSH GC 311672
Useable Case Capaci: 36.418 grain H2O
Cartridge O.A.L.: 2.550 inch
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch

MetalGod...
Do you have any of these powders?

Accurate 2495
Accurate 4064
Alliant AR-Comp
IMR 3031
Accurate 2520
Vihtavuori N135
Hodgdon BL-C2
IMR 4895
Norma 202
Vihtavuori N540
Hodgdon H4895
Vihtavuori N140
Vihtavuori N150
Vihtavuori N133

At 28,000psi (not unresonable) they will produce 2,065 to 1,950 fps top to bottom, with good fill and good burn completion.
Longer barrel about 25fps/in increase, or lowered pressure for same velocity
Let us know.


ps: if seating depth will allow UncleNick's milk carton card to stay in the neck,
that will go a long way toward negating the beveled base's vulnerability

Last edited by mehavey; July 23, 2021 at 08:42 PM.
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Old July 23, 2021, 10:21 PM   #14
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Of those powders I have AR-comp and IMR-4895 but likely won’t use AR-comp , that’s a powder for a very specific load I use and I do not plan on waisting it on this cartridge .
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Old July 24, 2021, 04:45 PM   #15
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CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Then consider:

Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 160, LYM LFNSH GC 311672
Useable Case Capaci: 36.418 grain H2O
Cartridge O.A.L.: 2.550 inch
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch

Code:
Type     Wt (gr)   fill (%)	vel (fps)	Pmax (psi)	  Z (%)
IMR4895	 30.7	      92	    2,008 	 28,000 	  85.5
CAUTION: This post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD software based on a particular powder lot, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QuickLOAD's author nor its distributor assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.
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Old July 24, 2021, 06:04 PM   #16
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I seated one of those bullets in a case I had already prepped. Didn’t shave any lead but went in what appeared quite crooked . About half way seated there was a big bulge on one side of the neck but after fully seated the bulge is gone and appears to be bulged equally all the way around . Concentricity of the bullet is not as I thought it would be , only .004 .

I ordered a FCD which I think is a collet type . M-Die does not appear to be instock anywhere . I’ll pick one up when ever I see one available. So until I get the M-die and FCD I likely won’t load any of these bullets but do like the idea of Imr 4895 as the powder . I also have some 8208xbr that might be a good fit . Also plan to have a load using 2400 .
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Old July 24, 2021, 06:10 PM   #17
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When needed, please copy the board's version of the warning into your post rather than modify it. The staff attorneys have looked the board version over, but not your version. You are welcome to add additional information and cautions separately, but the board warning should be put in place at the top of the post verbatim.
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Old July 24, 2021, 07:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
When needed, please copy the board's version of the warning into your post rather than modify it.
Uncle Nick, that was the version I actually got from this board (some years ago now)
Is there a sticky w/ a new version ?

Cheers
M

(postscript: OK I see it above my edited post.)

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Old July 24, 2021, 09:14 PM   #19
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MetalGod:
Get one of these: https://www.amazon.com/LEE-PRECISION.../dp/B000N8N538
Or one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Neck-Ex.../dp/B001RI78T0
It'll work on 30-30, 308Win, 30-06
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Old July 25, 2021, 10:02 AM   #20
Metal god
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I went ahead and bought them both . I like the idea of having a universal expander on hand and hopefully the 308 m-die will work on the 30-30 either way I load a lot of 308 so it wil be used regardless .
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Old July 25, 2021, 11:01 AM   #21
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Quote:
hopefully the 308 m-die will work on the 30-30 either way I load a lot of 308 so it wil be used regardless .
Just to be clear, the LYMAN M Die I am talking about is a "universal" die body. It never touches the case, all it does is hold the expander plug assy.

And that's where it gets specific, by caliber. Not cartridge. What you need is "any" M die body, and the .30 caliber expander assy for .30-30, or any other .30 caliber cartridge.

The M die is the middle die in Lyman's 3 die pistol sets, and if new is out of stock, a die body can often be obtained by buying an old Lyman 3 die set. Even a trashed/rusted "Unusable" die set will usually provide a serviceable M die body. (for cheap).

The key is getting the proper LYMAN expander assy. IF those are out of stock, then you're out of luck short of the classified among reloaders to find someone who has one and will part with it. Alternately, you might be able to get a larger expander and have it turned down to the diameter you need for .30.

Good Luck!
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Old July 25, 2021, 04:11 PM   #22
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Oh good , so now I’ll have an “M-die” and all I need to use it on all other cartridges are the proper inserts ?
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Old July 25, 2021, 04:39 PM   #23
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"I went ahead and bought them both . I like the idea of having a universal expander on hand and hopefully the 308 m-die will work on the 30-30 either way I load a lot of 308 so it wil be used regardless ."

I have the Lyman M die for .30 caliber. I use it for .30-30, .308 Win. and 30-06. You just have to readjust the tool for the cartridge.
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Old July 26, 2021, 01:27 AM   #24
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Quote:
Oh good , so now I’ll have an “M-die” and all I need to use it on all other cartridges are the proper inserts ?
Yep. I have "M" dies that came with my Lyman 38/357 dies. 44spl/Mag dies, & .45acp dies (from the 70s) from both standard and carbide sets, the M die bodies are all the same. The only difference is the different size expanders in them. You can use the same die body for any cartridge with the right size expander assy. All you need to do is adjust for case length and amount of size/flare you want to do.

Do trim your brass to a uniform length, THEN adjust expander depth, to set the flare.
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Old July 26, 2021, 10:34 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehavey
Uncle Nick, that was the version I actually got from this board (some years ago now)
Is there a sticky w/ a new version ?
Yes, it has changed a bit over time to cover more bases. It used to be directed only at hot loads but now is for all un-published load sources. It is in a sticky at the top of this forum. The sticky post includes the tags to make it appear in bold, so you just copy the whole thing, tags and all, and past that into your post.
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