Colt Bright .38 Super and Warm Loads

[Swifty Morgan]

I have a Colt .38 Super 1911 in bright stainless. It's a 2008 gun. The Internet says I owe it to Mexicans failing to buy as many guns as Colt produced for them.

The odds that I will ever use this gun for self-defense are about like the odds that California will put an AK-47 on its flag, but I still want to make some defensive rounds. No good reason at all.

Can anyone give me advice regarding what the factory chamber can handle? I don't know much about it. Are there aftermarket barrels that are safer for hottish loads?

[Drm50]

A 38Super is pretty decent stopper. Hotter than the 9mm. I don’t own one right now but have loaded for a couple Series 70s I had. I’m sure I loaded some HPs, but mostly FMJs. I just had stock guns with fixed sights so I never got into much other than plinking with them.
Back when 1st out the gangsters liked them because they would shoot through cops bullet proof vests.

[Jim Watson]

It has been a good while since a Mexican could legally buy a pistol larger than .380. The .38 Super si, .45 ACP no era is long past, but the legend lingers.

Your Colt will handle anything on the regular market.
Original 1932 load was listed as a 130 gr FMJ at 1300 fps.
Standard brands don't even claim that any more. Did it ever really do that? I don't know but Phil Sharpe shows loads tested by Hercules at 1275-1320 fps pre WWII.

Remington and Winchester now catalog a 130 FMJ at 1215, other brands less.

For defense, Sig V crown is a 125 JHP at 1230 fps which is about like 9mm +P.
Buffalo Bore, Underwood, and Corbon get the 124 JHP up to 1350 fps which is not much different from what was claimed nearly 90 years ago.

MAKE defensive rounds? The legal controversy over carrying reloads aside, it is hard to beat the boutique manufacturers' speeds. Review of the powder companies' data will get you a little here and there and one real screamer from just the right imported powder.

Beef up the gun to stand overloads? It could be done, but there used to be a term for the results of such experiments: "Super Face."

You could convert to 9x23 Win and gain a hundred fps over BB, but finding factory or loading your own would be a challenge.

[HiBC]

I'd concur with Mr Watson.

Achievable factory loads will exceed 9mm.

Is the goal having a self defense load or achieving a number? Something to talk about?

First requirement for a SD pistol is reliability.A semi-auto pistol is a balancing act with weights,springs,etc.It all balances into a cycle.

Do you suppose Colt built that gun to run on available factory loadso,or fantasy hot loads?

Yes,higher numbers can be loaded in a 38 Super.But the gun gets modified.

Does your gun have a ramped barrel with a fully supported chamber? Be sure you know what that is before you answer.

Generally,the 1400 fps 38 Supers run at about 40,000 psi +. The guns have ramped barrels,supported chambersand compensator that slow slide velocity and delay unlocking.

You do not want to shoot their ammo in your gun.

[Swifty Morgan]

This is a stock gun with a non-ramped Colt barrel.

The Alliant manual lists a load for Blue Dot and 124-grain Gold Dots with a velocity of 1312 fps. I guess that would work.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan

I have a Colt .38 Super 1911 in bright stainless. It's a 2008 gun. The Internet says I owe it to Mexicans failing to buy as many guns as Colt produced for them.

The odds that I will ever use this gun for self-defense are about like the odds that California will put an AK-47 on its flag, but I still want to make some defensive rounds. No good reason at all.

Can anyone give me advice regarding what the factory chamber can handle? I don't know much about it. Are there aftermarket barrels that are safer for hottish loads?

Keep in mind that ALL .38 Super ammo is +P. You should not load anything much hotter than a factory loading.

The reason for this is history. The original cartridge was the .38 Automatic (NOT the .380 ACP, which is an entirely different animal). When it was beefed up for the Colt .38 Super pistol, unlike what was done with .38 Special ==> .357 Magnum and .44 Special ==> .44 magnum, the case length remained unchanged. That led to the prospect of people using the new "Super" ammunition in older guns that were only safe to shoot the lower pressure .38 ACP. So ammo makers started designating .38 Super ammo (all of it) as +P.

What can you shoot in your Colt -- safely? Consider -- the original .38 ACP operated at 26,500 psi. That was the ammo John Browning designed for an older model pistol than the 1911. Once the 1911 came along, people realized it could handle more, so the .38 Super was born. SAAMI maximum pressure for .38 Super +P (and remember, ALL .38 Super is +P) is 36,500 psi. For comparison, standard-power 9mm Paraballum runs 35,000 psi.

Your Colt does not have a fully-supported chamber. The lower portion is cut away to promote feeding. While you might be able to get away going a bit higher in pressure, IMHO it's just not worth the risk. Standard .38 Super velocities and muzzle energy are more than adequate for self-defense.

I take it you are not convinced by the arguments against using handloads for self-defense?

[HiBC]

Its your pistol. Do whatever makes you happy.

I read the loading manuals,too!! I had my cool Colt 38 Super,Too!! I saw the Blue Dot loads,too!!

Now,please don't take my next statement personally. I'm applying it to myself,and my adventure with loading a 38 Super in a 1911 hot with Blue Dot.

Its a quote from William Blake,found in his "Proverbs from Hell"

"If a Fool will persist in his Folly.

He will become Wise"

Also to be found there: "All attempts at Foolproofing are folly,for the genius of the fool is infinite".

A lot of William Blakes work,I simply cannot comprehend. I think I'm missing some common knowledge from 18th Century Britain.(His time)

But,IMO,some of what he wrote I find brilliant.

I still have a couple of 38 Supers. I don't use Blue Dot

Power Pistol and Longshot? Yes.

I was given a top level Champion competitor's 38 Super .I then gave it to my brother.Its a single stack comped race gun.Supported,ramped barrel.Built by Guncraft.

For fourty years plus its run on 1400 fps ,over 40,000 psi loads.
Its slick,tight,like new,and runs like a watch.

It even has a trick swinging trigger,like a revolver. Mr Ben built some fine pistols.

That gun;s engineering is so balanced..My brother borrowed a high speed video cam used to analyze industrial equiptment.. He videoed the cycling of the gun to tune the recoil spring and find what kept the gun most motionless in cycle. Better for shooting fast and accurate.

The gun runs best with a 12 lb spring.1450 fps. All things are in balance.

A 1911 will run a long time with a 12 lb spring.This one is over 40 years old.

It will beat itself to death running 24 lb spring.

And that load would soon ruin your pistol.

1280 fps will cool out a bad guy just as quickly as 1450 fps will. They punch pretty much the same hole.

But consider,with no comp,the guy shooting the 1280 fps load might get off three controlled shots in the time the 1450 fps guy gets off two.
Assuming all hit center torso,3 hits beats two hits.

[tipoc]

I encourage you to go through the following pages on this link from the old 38 Super sight.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170713...ges/Major.html

It takes up some basic information on loading for defense and loads to make the old standard for making Major, or at least some of that.

With the Super and handloading you can get a 147 gr. from a 5" barrel moving at close to 1200 fps. You can get similar commercial loads...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001518248?pid=442587

With the right bullet these are quite good self defense rounds and small game hunting loads.

You can also get the classic 125 gr. at just under 1400 fps. or close enough to make no difference.

This can be done within safe pressure specs.

tipoc

[Swifty Morgan]

It sounds like I will never have a reason to buy a new barrel.

I'm trying to piece together my old target loads. I never made anything but target rounds for this gun. I determined that I have 124-grain Laser Cast round nose 0.356" bullets, No.7, and an AOL of 1.220". The thing is, I can't find a recipe for these bullets and No.7 and that OAL. Laser Cast and Accurate list different lengths. I may not be perfect, but I can tell the difference between 1.250" and 1.220". Wonder where I got the recipe.

[74A95]

You can achieve impressive performance at standard 38 Super pressure if you select the right gunpowder. See this article:

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...38-super/99160

This was done in a Colt with a standard non-ramped Colt barrel.

They achieved 1550 fps with 115 grain bullets, 1450 with 124 grain bullets, and over 1300 fps with 147 grain bullets. These are all published load data at standard 38 Super pressure.

The 124 at 1450 fps matches the 9X23 Winchester and a 357 Magnum from a 4" barrel revolver.

One of the most important components is the right brass. Use Starline 38 Super +P or Starline 38 Super Comp (rimless). They are very strong in the unsupported region.

[Swifty Morgan]

Those are big numbers. As it happens, I have No.7 lying around. It seems to be good for all sorts of things.

I suppose I could man up and work up a load for 125-grain Gold Dots.

Not quite sure why Speer makes 124-grain and 125-grain Gold Dots in the same diameter. There must be a reason. Speer lists the same OAL for both, so I don't think the shape is much different.

RE the target recipe and the shrunk OAL, I'm thinking maybe Oregon Trails or Accurate changed their OAL recommendation. I can't tell, however, because I don't have access to all of my old data right now.

I have a pile of 1.220" target loads, and they shoot fine in spite of being well under the current published OAL's.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan

Those are big numbers. As it happens, I have No.7 lying around. It seems to be good for all sorts of things.

I suppose I could man up and work up a load for 125-grain Gold Dots.

Not quite sure why Speer makes 124-grain and 125-grain Gold Dots in the same diameter. There must be a reason. Speer lists the same OAL for both, so I don't think the shape is much different.

Speer's 125 grain 9mm bullets are for the 357 SIG. The nose shape is different. The 125 SIG bullet has a shorter nose than the 124 9mm bullet.

[Swifty Morgan]

Well, that's weird. MidwayUSA reviewers say they use it for .38 Super.

Speer lists both rounds in their .38 Super data. Maybe they both work.

[Swifty Morgan]

I've been reading up on it, and people claim the 125-grain bullet is for above-9mm velocities.

[74A95]

Right. Bullets are generally designed, via lead alloy harness, hollow point size, to expand to some desired size, within a range of velocities. Since 9mm bullets don't go as fast as 357 SIG bullets, shooting a 357 SIG bullet at 9mm speed can result in less than optimal expansion (defined by the manufacturer).

You can use any bullet you desire in your 38 Super. If you want to try to match optimal expansion with the speed you intend to shoot the bullets, you can ask the bullet maker which bullet they think will perform best for you - if they have not already done so in their load manual.

If you're pushing bullets fast, one designed for optimal expansion at high speed might be the 357 SIG-type bullet. Here, again, the bullet maker is the final expert.

On a side note, Hornady lists .355, .356 and .357 bullets in their 38 Super data. Obviously the .357 bullets are their revolver bullets. Handloaders have different goals that might include plinking, hunting, accuracy, defense. Bullet choice depends on what you want to achieve.

If you happen to be looking for accurate loads, there is an article that looks closely at that here:

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...r-loads/326242

[rock185]

Swifty, I've had several Colt Supers, two Kimbers, and an STI. One of the Colts was a bright stainless "ELCEN" model, that I had BarSto fit an extra 9MM barrel to. I did run quite a variety of factory and hand loaded ammo through that one, and other Colt Supers with factory stock barrels. Looking through some notes, I see that one load using a 115 grain bullet and AA-7 powder averaged 1453 FPS. The slower AA-9 powder produced similar velocities with 124/125 grain bullets. Another load using AA-9 and a 147 grain bullet averaged 1250+ FPS. I did load some of the Gold Dot 125s intended for the .357 SIG cartridge. They did not feed reliably in one of my Colts. While I much prefer ramped barrels used by some other manufacturers, there were no issues with the later factory Colt barrels, except with some more blunt JHPs like the 125 Gold Dot. I started reloading the 38 Super about 40 years ago. Back then, some factory cases were pretty thin in the case head area, probably the same cases used for the old lower pressure 38 ACP cartridge, but nickel plated with a different headstamp. Today we have more robust cases and better guns.

FWIW, I did find the stock Colt barrels used in more recent Supers to have relatively good case head support. In any case, using relatively slow powders in the Super, and being careful in load development, I've found the Super to be fine and versatile cartridge to shoot and reload.

All this being said, if I were going to carry a Super, I would use factory ammo as opposed to my, or anyone else's, reloads.......ymmv

PS, I don't use the reloads mentioned in the Colt in the attached photo

[tipoc]

Here is a link to Western Powder's Handloading guide for Accurate #7 and the 38 Super.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con....0-Web-REV.pdf

It lists a load with a 147 gr. RN bullet backed by 8.6 grains of #7 powder operating at 40,000 pds of pressure doing a max velocity of 1218 fps.

ACCURATE NO. 7

147 (L) LC RN 8.6 1,071 9.6 1,218 40,000 1.140

This is over the recommended pressure given for the 38 Super by SAMMI. So as the manual clearly states work up to these loads carefully.

I looked but was not able to find the load that brad Miller suggests in his article on Super Powders for the 38 Super. Maybe I did not look enough. I suggest to work with data from actual powder manufacturers rather than certain gun writers.


Brad Miller says:

The Western Powders manual lists some impressive performance in the .38 Super with Accurate No. 7, so its data was tested with all the bullets they listed to see how it measured up. Their maximum loads are at high pressures, but still under the SAAMI specification maximum for this cartridge, 36,500 psi. One number caught my eye because the listed velocity was an even 1300 fps. But this was not for a 130 grain bullet. No, this was for a 147 grain lead bullet. That's the type of performance we're looking for!

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...38-super/99160

I encourage folks that if they are looking for loads for the 38 Super to look them up in Handloader Magazine and in the sources I provided earlier.

tipoc

[tipoc]

I did see several worthwhile loads from Vihtavuori including one mentioned by Miller.

You can see that here...

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading.../?cartridge=42

This is what Vihtavouri describes as the intention of this powder:

N105 SUPER MAGNUM
N105 Super Magnum is Vihtavuori’s slowest burning pistol powder, intended for the most powerful handgun cartridges in use today, particularly with heavy bullets and/or large case volume. Many of these specialized rounds operate at rifle pressures. Delivering this type of shooting performance is precisely what prompted the development of N105. For such powerhouse calibers as the .454 Casull or .500 S&W, N105 is an excellent reloading powder choice.

They do offer load data for cartridges that operate at less pressure than "Super Magnum" loads though, 9mm, 45, 40 S&W, etc. A 124 gr. bullet or 147 gr. bullet is not a heavy bullet in the context of the purpose of N105 powder.

tipoc

[RickB]

130gr @ 1300 is full power; anything hotter than that, and you are an experimental ballistician.

Some boutique ammo makers have rounds for unsupported chambers, and hotter rounds for supported.

"The 124 at 1450 fps matches the 9X23 Winchester"; how do you match velocities for a round with a 45k psi pressure limit, with a round with a 35k pressure limit?

[74A95]

Originally Posted by tipoc

Here is a link to Western Powder's Handloading guide for Accurate #7 and the 38 Super.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con....0-Web-REV.pdf


It lists a load with a 147 gr. RN bullet backed by 8.6 grains of #7 powder operating at 40,000 pds of pressure doing a max velocity of 1218 fps.

This is over the recommended pressure given for the 38 Super by SAMMI. So as the manual clearly states work up to these loads carefully.

tipoc, you are posting 357 SIG data, not 38 Super data!!!

Western's 38 Super data is all within SAAMI specs.

Originally Posted by tipoc

I looked but was not able to find the load that brad Miller suggests in his article on Super Powders for the 38 Super. Maybe I did not look enough. I suggest to work with data from actual powder manufacturers rather than certain gun writers.

Brad Miller says:

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...38-super/99160

I encourage folks that if they are looking for loads for the 38 Super to look them up in Handloader Magazine and in the sources I provided earlier.

tipoc

That author (Miller) posted the correct 38 Super load data directly from the Western Powders manual. Look at it again!

[74A95]

Originally Posted by RickB

130gr @ 1300 is full power; anything hotter than that, and you are an experimental ballistician.

Some boutique ammo makers have rounds for unsupported chambers, and hotter rounds for supported.

"The 124 at 1450 fps matches the 9X23 Winchester"; how do you match velocities for a round with a 45k psi pressure limit, with a round with a 35k pressure limit?

Pick the right gunpowder. That was the point of the article. Keep in mind that all the data in the article was from load manuals and is within SAAMI pressure limits.

The 38 Super brass is not as thick as the original 9X23 Winchester brass, which means the 38 Super case has more internal space. Since it has more space, picking the right gunpowder (and bullet) lets you take advantage of that space and get the most from the cartridge.

Originally Posted by RickB

Some boutique ammo makers have rounds for unsupported chambers, and hotter rounds for supported.

Which ones have that for 38 Super?

[Swifty Morgan]

Here's something I don't get. I have read that it's okay to put a 9x23 barrel in a Colt Government .38 Super, and I have also read that it will wreck the frame. Who is right?

I would think 9x23 would be a pretty obvious choice if it were that easy.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan

Here's something I don't get. I have read that it's okay to put a 9x23 barrel in a Colt Government .38 Super, and I have also read that it will wreck the frame. Who is right?

I would think 9x23 would be a pretty obvious choice if it were that easy.

It is okay to put a 9X23 barrel in a Colt Government 38 Super. Colt (and Springfield Armory) used to sell complete 9X23 pistols. Colt used to sell some of their pistols with both barrels, as I understand it (I thought I saw some on Gunbroker/Guns America type places years back - could be wrong).

When they say 'wreck the frame', what do they mean?

The 9X23 has more recoil than the average 38 Super ammo, so the 9X23 does have a faster/stronger recoil impulse than the usual 38 Super. This is, as I understand it, remedied with a stronger recoil spring, perhaps an enhanced mainspring, too. The 9X23 has about the same recoil force as the 45 Auto, so it's not all that much.

What are your sources of information?

You could check out the information at this website, which used to have a lot of 9X23 information. https://pistolsmith.com/forums.php Dane Burns used to post 9X23 information there, he used to build custom 9X23 pistols (Burns Custom) and was a strong advocate of the cartridge.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan

I would think 9x23 would be a pretty obvious choice if it were that easy.

9X23 ammo is a little tough to find. Winchester does not produce tons of it, and it often sells out pretty quick when (online) stores stock it. The Winchester 9X23 brass is special, in that it is very thick in the lower half because it was designed to operate at 45,000 psi in an unsupported chamber. A competition version made by Starline, 9X23 Comp, is not as thick as the Winchester brass, and can be dangerous to fire in an unsupported chamber at the same pressures.

[HiBC]

You do things your way.No problem
I'll suggest reaching for heavier recoil springs is not the best plan.

Heavy springs have a couple of problems.One,there is a choreography issue.

The magazine needs a certain amount of time to lift the column of cartridges up to the mag feed lips.A heavy recoil spring speeds up the slide....Which results in problem two.

The 1911 is designed with a reasonable amount of steel to deal with stopping the rearward motion of the recoiling slide and barrel.

Its far less robust when stopping the forward motion of the slide. I'm not a pro 1911 smith. Amateur hobbyist still learning would be closer. IMO,I'll go 2 lbs heavier than JMB intended with a recoil spring if I have reason to. I get ther by installing a 4 lb over spring, At the point the slide stays open most of the time with the 4lb over spring, for myself,thats a limit. Then I go back to the 2 lb over spring. The slide should reliably hold back.

The impact of a slide launched forward by a 24 lb spring ultimately travels into the slide stop and the holes in the frame supporting the slide stop.

IMO,a ramped barrel and supported chamber are a place to start.

You gain some resistance to the slide;s early opening by installing a firing pin stop with a square lower corner vs a round one.Its harder to start the slide to the rear against the hammer. IMO,you don't want a sharp "cutting edge" corner,but a minimal smooth radius.I like about .015in

Along with that,a full GI spec Mainspring (hammer spring)

Ultimately,I'm less concerned about getting giddy over the numbers on the chronograph than I am about finding a load that works well with the pistol

Load to the gun,not the chronograph.

For myself,one benefit that has come out of the great caliber war is that the duty/SD handgun punches a hole pretty much like pounding a piece of pipe through.
There is no hi-vel centerfire rifle shredded mess.

Bullet tech has evolved enough good performance is achieved with 9mm.

A 38 Super has more than enough velocity to expand 9mm bullets.

Sufficient penetration is needed. Over penetration is less desirable.

I myself have the "hot rodder" spirit.I get the idea that there is a magic number,. But that is mostly illusion.

Its OK to build engines for dyno runs,if that trips your trigger.

But IMO,the dyno numbers aren't the same as "Is there something my truck needs to do that it won't do?"

And at some point,instead of building a 9000 rpm 500 hp smallblock,my needs might be better served with a 5000 rpm 285 hp big block,

If it will pull the boat up the ramp.

The Major Caliber thing has been adjusted. Extreme 38 Super loads are no longer required.

What is it you are trying to achieve?

You know,due to the 38 super semi-rim,a 10 mm rim dia (breech face) isn't that much bigger.

If you want a dyno-chronograph bragging gun,you can rechamber to a 10 mm necked down to .356.Its maybe the 9x25 Dillon?

It makes noise and fire,too.

But for SD,its not necessarily an advantage over a 9mm