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Old Yesterday, 06:15 PM   #26
Swifty Morgan
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It's Unique. I am using data from Handloader's Ammunition Reloading Journal.

Basically, it's 1.205", 230 grain XTP, 6.0 grains @ 789 fps, 6.8 grains @ 949 fps.

The OAL is much shorter than Hornady's, which is 1.230".
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Old Yesterday, 06:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
The OAL is much shorter than Hornady's, which is 1.230
Which can explain some of your increased pressure and velocity. When you shove the bullet deeper into the csse, the case volume goes down and pressure spike goes up. 30 thousandths may not seem like much, but volume increases cubic and length is linear. With a 45 acp being a large diameter, increases and decreases in length make a big difference in volume.
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Old Yesterday, 06:55 PM   #28
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Is the Handloader data developed with the Hornady bullet?

Given,the bullet weighs 230 gr. Bullets vary in the shapes of their ogives.

What is important to loading handgun ammo regarding pressure is not length overall,but the depth the bullet base is seated to. That controls combustion chamber volume,which has an effect on pressure.

LOA may be important to magazines and feeding

Its good to consider Hornady data with Hornady bullets.

Last edited by HiBC; Yesterday at 07:02 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 07:21 PM   #29
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See above.

Quote:
Basically, it's 1.205", 230 grain XTP, 6.0 grains @ 789 fps, 6.8 grains @ 949 fps.
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Old Yesterday, 09:15 PM   #30
mikejonestkd
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I took a look at the Hornady 10th edition. Page 944
The XTP COAL is 1.230"
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Old Yesterday, 09:27 PM   #31
Kevin Rohrer
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If so, how does anyone ever work up a .45 ACP load?

Look in any reloading manual and pick a load.

For me, I load 230gr bullets w/ 6.0gr. Unique.
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Old Yesterday, 09:50 PM   #32
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The OAL is much shorter than Hornady's, which is 1.230".
Which is considerably shorter than the max COL I have in my books for the .45ACP which is 1.275"

You are entirely correct that changes in the seating depth of the bullet makes a change in the voiume of the case and has an effect on the pressure.

What is being left out are several factors that can make the difference between a measurable effect and a significant effect.

Using a chronograph will show you changes in velocity in YOUR gun. Something good to know, but not essential. Using your chrono data and comparing it against someone else's data is only good for really rough comparisons and useless for specific details.

Different guns can register differences of as much as 100fps with the same barrel length, shooting the same ammunition. USUALLY the difference is less, but not always, and because of that simple fact everyone else's data is a guideline, a general thing, and not a specific rule that apples to your gun and ammo combination.

Most of the time, results are similar, and that's why they can be useful, but its not guaranteed, your gun & ammo combination can be quite different from theirs and still be within "normal" range.

IN other words, if "the book" says they got 877fps and your chrono says you got 837fps, it means nothing, other than both guns are within the usual range of difference.

Lyman Manual 1970, 230gr bullet 6.5gr Unique, 877fps (Factory duplication load). Been working for me since 1970, I see no point in changing.
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Old Yesterday, 10:38 PM   #33
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I got 70 more fps plus bulged cases with .01 grains more powder than the recipe's middle value, and I was still 0.3 below the published max. That's some difference. I wonder what the maximum charge would have done. It would have been a mess.
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Old Yesterday, 11:33 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Quote:
The OAL is much shorter than Hornady's, which is 1.230".
Which is considerably shorter than the max COL I have in my books for the .45ACP which is 1.275"
But 1.275" is for round nose, ball ammo. The XTP is a jacketed hollow point. If you seated the XTP to anything close to 1.275" the would be inadequate seating depth.
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Old Today, 12:11 AM   #35
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Quote:
My gun is an SW1911.

Here is what I got with 6.2 grains (of Unique):

908
906
910
905
888
Okay, that's an average velocity of 903.4 with a Standard Deviation of 8.82. Those are great numbers - especially the SD (only five rounds however). Which BTW, drops to 2.21 if you throw out the 888 (of course, you can't because that's was SD is all about )

Well your numbers totally jive with mine. Through my Kimber 1911, I got an average velocity of 903.8 with a SD of 16.20. 6.2 grains of Unique is the charge weight I decided on and considered "set." I did test at 6.4 (932 f/s) and chose to stop - my notes state the primers were starting to show some flattening. Book max is 6.6 grains - I had no desire to go there.

If I was in your position (and I was ), I'd leave it at 6.2 and call it good (which I did ). Seriously, you are where you said you wanted to be. Remember the old adage: "Just because a little is good, does not mean that more is better." It may be prudent to run a few more at 6.2 over the chrono, but other than that, I think this load work up is pretty much complete.
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Old Today, 12:30 AM   #36
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Unique and Hornady 230 XTP's with RP 2 1/2 primers and RP cases at an overall length of 1.230" in my G 21 and Colt 1911 without chrono data shows violent ejection and harder than factory recoil with 6.5 grains of Unique. At 6.1 grains it seems normal. I would be hesitant to load above 6.3 grains and definitely would not start at 6.5 and go up.
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Old Today, 05:02 AM   #37
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Quote:
It seems that what I'm hearing is that if the chronograph reading is low enough, the load is okay. That doesn't make sense to me, because I've seen loads with certain powders limited at lower speeds than other powders. It must be possible to have unacceptably high pressure without excessive speed.
The above is what we've been trying to explain. Powders react differently to pressure, where Bullseye can get higher pressure with lower velocities because it is fast burning, where Unique is slower.

That said as mentioned above by others, seating depth also plays a role and can increase pressure on even a lower end load. This can also be a product of a loose crimp which allows setback inadvertently. It could result in 3-4 rounds firing fine and the 5th going to a high pressure level.

I can't say for certain that it has resulted in damage but I can't rule it out either. Some might call it a double charge, might be, hard to tell after the fact. I do know that some brass is thinner than other and I personally have had to adjust the crimp to accommodate that. Had I just loaded it up and found out later things could have been an issue.

I load a LOT of 4ish grain loads of Bullseye and about the same using Unique, and AA2. They all work well for the cast target stuff i practice with. I also use a lot of AA5 and 7 in my autos to match factory loads with jacketed. They all work fine but you have to maintain length within a range for the bullets your shooting. That's a perfect reason to start low and work up. Even a shorter COAL can be used IF the charge is worked up to and not just assumed it'll work.
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Old Today, 08:59 AM   #38
Swifty Morgan
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Quote:
The above is what we've been trying to explain.
"We" have not been in agreement, which is why I posted what I did. Some of the material posted suggests everything is fine if the chronograph gives the right reading, and that appears to be untrue.

The advice about relying on the chronograph has to be wrong, because a load that chronographs at 900 can have too much pressure. I will discard the notion that speed tells me whether loads are safe.
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Old Today, 09:02 AM   #39
Swifty Morgan
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If I was in your position (and I was ), I'd leave it at 6.2 and call it good (which I did ). Seriously, you are where you said you wanted to be. Remember the old adage: "Just because a little is good, does not mean that more is better."
Thanks for the help. There is no way I'm adding more powder. I'm considering going DOWN, not up. My best guess is that this load is fine, but I don't want to have a problem if my powder measure drops a little more than it should in a round.
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Old Today, 10:53 AM   #40
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Swifty my 45acp of choice is a Tanfoglio Witness and it has little to no leade in the barrel throat. I tried loading cast SWC in it and that was a no go. with the shoulder on the bullet bearing surface I couldn't get it short enough to fully chamber reliably so I gave up on that bullet.

The next attempt was with a Lee 200gr cast RNFP and once again I had to load this very short to get these to plunk into the barrel. Though once I found a length that worked I was so far under standard lengths that I was just guessing on a powder charge. So I took the Starting load for a 200gr plated bullet I'd been using and reduced it by .2 gr thinking that should be a safe bet.

Now I don't have a chrono to test with so there I am in the dark. When I finally got around to testing these I was mostly happy because the cycled and chambered like they should with no mishaps. Only real thing I took notice of was that even with the reduced starting load because of the reduced length that these were still very stout loads. I would guess near max. Well at least MAX for me. I loaded up 20 more with a reduced load down .3gr but I still haven't been able to get to the range to test these.

My point is that I found the seating depth played a bigger part than I thought it would in pressures.
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Old Today, 12:50 PM   #41
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I think my problems are solved. Either it will work with 6.2 grains, or it will work with 6.1. No idea why the velocities are so high in this particular gun, but I guess I don't need to know.
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Old Today, 01:12 PM   #42
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I think you just have the proverbial "fast barrel," and Pearce's is about average.
I don't know of anybody figuring out the exact dimensions that make up a "fast barrel", that's just the way it is.
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Old Today, 02:43 PM   #43
Swifty Morgan
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Ran 6 more shots through the chronograph at 6.1 grains. The results look fine. I'm close to 900 from the safer side. The chronograph dropped one shot.

I used old range brass. I don't know if this has any effect on the spread and standard deviation. I'll be using new Starline for the rest.

45 ACP XTP 230 6.1 Unique Digital Link
Test rounds for defensive purposes. Goal 875 fps.
Temperature: 89° F
Pressure: 30 in Hg
Bullet Weight: 230.0
Power Factor Average: 206
Power Factor Low: 203
Power Factor High: 209
Number of Shots: 5
Minimum: 884
Maximum: 911
Spread: 27
Average: 895
Standard Deviation: 10
Custom Attributes
OAL 1.205
Brass Starline new
Powder Unique 6.1
Primer WLP
Bullet Hornady XTP
# Velocity Ft/lbs Power Factor Date
5 900 413.64 207 5/24/20 3:33 PM
4 899 412.72 206 5/24/20 3:33 PM
3 885 399.96 203 5/24/20 3:33 PM
2 911 423.81 209 5/24/20 3:33 PM
1 884 399.06 203 5/24/20 3:33 PM
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Old Today, 02:49 PM   #44
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One probable reason for your velocity is that you are seating them shorter than recommended.
I guess you missed my earlier post so I am retyping it:

I took a look at the Hornady 10th edition. Page 944
The XTP COAL is 1.230"
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Old Today, 03:01 PM   #45
Swifty Morgan
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Actually, you missed a couple of my posts. I'm using a recipe from a different source.
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Old Today, 03:24 PM   #46
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In post 26 you mention your COAL, but I do not see any other references after that.

What is your COAL with the load listed above?
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Old Today, 05:21 PM   #47
Swifty Morgan
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It's in posts 26, 29, and 43: 1.205".
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Old Today, 06:37 PM   #48
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Thank you, your COAL contributes to your velocity, and increases pressure over the book length of 1.230"
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