S&W 41 or Performance Center SW22

stephen426 · August 31, 2018, 06:31 PM

What do you guys think of the S&W Model 41 which has a legendary reputation or go for the ultra modern Performance Center SW22 Victory Target with carbon fiber barrel and custom muzzle brake? I would guess this is comparing the Sig P210 vs. the X-Five models. I am sure performance is on par and it is classic vs. modern. Which would you go for and why? What about resale value?

sparkyv · August 31, 2018, 06:46 PM

For me it's Victory. Not very picky, a very good shooter even with bulk ammo, has decent after-market support, and way cheaper than the venerable 41. Not as good resale, however.

saleen322 · August 31, 2018, 06:54 PM

I have no experience with the SW22. I have owned and shot 41s. The 41 is a good pistol but the cost of a new 41 is getting up to the point that for a little more money, you can get a competitive target pistol. If for informal target shooting and you like the SW22 you would have less money in it with one of those. YMMV

bac1023 · August 31, 2018, 07:53 PM

The “Performance Center” is nothing more than a name S&W slaps on its products for some improved sights, extra grooves, and maybe a lighter trigger.

The days of the PC being a true custom shop producing the likes of the 945 or 952 are long, long over.

stephen426 · September 1, 2018, 12:08 AM

bac1023,

Do you know how the current production model 41s compare to older ones? The list is pretty darn high and I am thinking of picking up one of the beautiful deep blued ones that are older stock.

bac1023 · September 1, 2018, 09:41 AM

I much prefer the older 41. The new production models are ok and they shoot well, but the craftsmanship of the 60’s and 70’s is missing.

mikejonestkd · September 1, 2018, 10:12 AM

I have two older smith 41s and they are excellent pistols, pricey, but excellent.
I would try to find an older one before considering a new one. My local smith has reported a few issues with the chambers on the newer ones - they are cut too small to run 100% with some match ammo.

Sevens · September 1, 2018, 11:10 AM

I've seen WAY too many problems reported about absolutely everything shipped from S&W currently and for sure, the Victory pistols specifically. I wouldn't go near anything S&W sells currently.

41's have earned their reputation but you WILL pay a pretty penny to get one.

In my opinion, if you want Bullseye competition level rimfire, shop for a decent used Walther GSP or spend a little more for a Hammerli.

rt11002003 · September 1, 2018, 12:03 PM

I have two of the newer M41s. They compare favorably to older M41s I've shot. My Hammerli Xesse Sport shots better than any M41 I've tried. The Hammerli I'm shooting these days is my second one. Hammerli made a model 280 (208?) that was even better. I'm the limiting factor in hand gun (any gun) accuracy so I haven't found it necessary to look for the ultimate. I do have an old Anschutz bolt action rifle that's really accurate, and cheap in its day.

I've shot the Victory, didn't care for it. My shooting buddy bought a Victory. Sold his older model M41. He favors a Browning BuckMark for shooting steels.

I went with the newer M41s because they came with an integral rail, no drilling or tapping needed. That's important to me because at 80, my eyes prefer red dot sights. The Hammerli iron sights work better for me than the M41' sights.

Another nice, accurate handgun is the S&W Model 422, an older model from S&W, generally available less expensively. I have two of them, also. One with a 4" barrel; the other with a 6" barrel. Not M41 class, but pretty close.

Comparing the SIG p210 to the SIG X-5 (or X-6) is almost apples to oranges. The p210 was developed as a duty handgun. The X Series are sport shooters. The p210 Swiss made pistols are superior to the German models, according to experts. I've owned the Swiss model and shot the German p210, I couldn't tell a difference. Have owned and own the X-5 (two models) and X-6. Found the X-6 worked better for me than the X-5, or the p210. Just picked up a new SIG p210T Target, US made. Surprised me, I shot it better than the X-5 and the German and Swiss p210s.

The whole gun thing is very subjective.

DaleA · September 1, 2018, 02:22 PM

Quote:

I do have an old Anschutz bolt action rifle that's really accurate, and cheap in its day.

I'm going to disagree a little here about "cheap". In the late 1960's I was looking at getting an Anschutz and the price was a smidge over $300---this was the "Super Match 54" similar to this one:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=1535829575354

Flipping burgers got a guy about $1.40 an hour and unfortunately for my shooting career the summer I really wanted to get the rifle a used Honda motorcycle showed up for a smidge over $300. My teenage mind thought a motorcycle might just be a touch more attractive to the girls than a target rifle. Oh well, we all make decisions.

Also, IIRC, a hardware store semi-auto .22 could be had at the time for about $25 that had a tubular magazine and would shoot .22 shorts, .22 longs and .22 long rifles. Very versatile!

To address the OP's question I'd really try hard to get an old Model 41. Most of the shooters I know that had them used them a lot but took very good care of them. I think they would be worth the money.

HighValleyRanch · September 1, 2018, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Hammerli made a model 280 (208?)

They made both models, the 208 AND the 280.
The 280 looks like a Walther GSP with the magazine outside the grip in front of the trigger guard, while the 208 looks more like the SW41 or the Hammerli X-esse or Sig trailside.

stephen426 · September 2, 2018, 08:24 AM

Thanks for all the replies guys. I don’t really “need” a high end .22 since I don’t compete. I made the mistake of browsing gunbroker.com and saw one. The cult like following and almost legendary status of the 41 is what piqued my interest.

A new 7” model was around $800 when I started bidding. I think I entered about 3 additional bids (to become the highest bidder) and then said if it is meant to be, it will be mine. I bid $950 and closed the browser. The gun went for $955.

Oh well, the other guy might have kept bidding anyway.

There are a few that I am watching that look very interesting. I’ll let you know “if “ I win one. LOL

HighValleyRanch · September 2, 2018, 12:37 PM

This thread is useless without pics!

rt11002003 · September 3, 2018, 11:43 AM

"DaleA", I paid $75 NIB in 1970. It was never fired until about four years ago. Carried it around the USAF until I retired. Then was busy in a second career. Very basic single shot, bolt action. Never got to use the "peep" sights. My eyes got too tired. Now use a scope on it. A couple of weeks ago, when going thru some "stuff", I found the original instructions for adjusting the trigger.

"HighValleyRanch", sorry about that; I was going from memory. At 80 the memory can be spotty. Have considered buying one of the "better" Hammerli's, but Haven't convinced myself to do so.

DaleA · September 3, 2018, 04:05 PM

$75 for an Anschutz in 1970 was a very good deal indeed even for one of the more economical (I refuse to use the word 'cheap' in regards to an Anschutz) rifles they sold.

I'll bet the trigger, and accuracy of your Anschutz is top notch.

FYI I had a friend that did get the top of the line $300 target model. I shot it a few times before he moved off to college and I thought the trigger was very nice, (so did he), then at college one of the coaches of their rifle team that knew what he was doing adjusted it for him and he said it was much, much better. It still had to lift 3 pounds but he said it was much more like the proverbial 'glass rod breaking' when the coach was done with it.

Good luck, I'm sure that rifle will serve you well.

darkgael · September 4, 2018, 04:31 AM

Maybe I am stuck in the past but I have always fancied High Standards. I would look for a good used Victor or Supermatic before either of the S&Ws.

stephen426 · September 4, 2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkgael

Maybe I am stuck in the past but I have always fancied High Standards. I would look for a good used Victor or Supermatic before either of the S&Ws.

The grip angle on the High Standards look weird to me. I have heard good things about them, but I don't believe they are in the same class as the Model 41.

RC20 · September 4, 2018, 12:13 PM

Really sounds like you don't want or need either one of the listed choices.

Any of the modern semi auto or revolver 22s would do for a lot less.

stephen426 · September 4, 2018, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC20

Really sounds like you don't want or need either one of the listed choices.

Any of the modern semi auto or revolver 22s would do for a lot less.

LOL,
I certainly don't "need" another .22 pistol since I have 2 already (Browning and Ruger). I saw a good deal on Gun Broker and figured I'd add it to the collection. Gun Broker can be a very tempting and dangerous place. LOL

saleen322 · September 4, 2018, 01:51 PM

Quote:

The grip angle on the High Standards look weird to me. I have heard good things about them, but I don't believe they are in the same class as the Model 41.

High Standards have two grip angles, the early ones are a slant grip similar to a Ruger Mark series and the later Military grip--like a 1911 or a 41.

You really should shoot a 41 and a target High Standard at the same time. We currently have 24 pistols in 22. That includes Hammerli, FAS, Benell, Pardini, Browning (Medalists), Ruger, Volquartsen, etc and 7 High Standards. We have 0 model 41s that we kept. YMMV

rock185 · September 4, 2018, 03:13 PM

Stephen, My impression of current Performance Center production is the same as bac's. I had a 41 years ago, and were I again in the market, would not even consider that PC Victory thing. I'd keep watching for the right Model 41 too.

reddog81 · September 4, 2018, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen426

The grip angle on the High Standards look weird to me. I have heard good things about them, but I don't believe they are in the same class as the Model 41.

And a S&W Victory .22 isn't in the same class as nice High Standard no matter how many do-dads you hang off it or how much carbon fiber you wrap around it.

I'd go with the model 41.

stephen426 · September 4, 2018, 06:17 PM

Thanks for the replies guys! It is a shame to hear so many legacy brands are putting put out mediocre products now. This includes Sig and Colt. Interestingly, Walther seems to have really stepped up their game with the PPQ.

I think I will stick with the hunt for the 41 and see if I can get a good deal. If not, I don't really "need" another .22. LOL

dgludwig · September 5, 2018, 12:37 PM

Model 41 for me-a grand old target pistol developed for Bullseye competition. Beautifully finished and superb workmanship, especially on the older models.

T. O'Heir · September 5, 2018, 02:25 PM

"...you can get a competitive target pistol..." A Smith 41 is a competitive target pistol. An $868.00 pistol is not. Despite is being from Smith's Performance Center there's no comparison between an SW22, entry level, .22 target pistol and a 41 at $1,369.00 or $1,619.00.
Mind you, it depends on what competition you're shooting. Both of 'em really need aftermarket grips too.

View Poll Results: Which would you go for and why?
Model 41 Target	28	75.68%
SW22 Victory Target	5	13.51%
Neither: What would you get instead?	4	10.81%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

August 31, 2018, 06:31 PM	#1
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	S&W 41 or Performance Center SW22 What do you guys think of the S&W Model 41 which has a legendary reputation or go for the ultra modern Performance Center SW22 Victory Target with carbon fiber barrel and custom muzzle brake? I would guess this is comparing the Sig P210 vs. the X-Five models. I am sure performance is on par and it is classic vs. modern. Which would you go for and why? What about resale value? __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! Last edited by stephen426; August 31, 2018 at 06:56 PM.

August 31, 2018, 06:46 PM	#2
sparkyv Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2015 Location: Deepinnaheartta,Texas Posts: 318	For me it's Victory. Not very picky, a very good shooter even with bulk ammo, has decent after-market support, and way cheaper than the venerable 41. Not as good resale, however. __________________ μολὼν λαβέ NRA Life Member

September 1, 2018, 12:08 AM	#5
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	bac1023, Do you know how the current production model 41s compare to older ones? The list is pretty darn high and I am thinking of picking up one of the beautiful deep blued ones that are older stock. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

September 1, 2018, 10:12 AM	#7
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	I have two older smith 41s and they are excellent pistols, pricey, but excellent. I would try to find an older one before considering a new one. My local smith has reported a few issues with the chambers on the newer ones - they are cut too small to run 100% with some match ammo. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

August 31, 2018, 06:54 PM	#3
saleen322 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2010 Posts: 778	I have no experience with the SW22. I have owned and shot 41s. The 41 is a good pistol but the cost of a new 41 is getting up to the point that for a little more money, you can get a competitive target pistol. If for informal target shooting and you like the SW22 you would have less money in it with one of those. YMMV

August 31, 2018, 07:53 PM	#4
bac1023 Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 1,106	The “Performance Center” is nothing more than a name S&W slaps on its products for some improved sights, extra grooves, and maybe a lighter trigger. The days of the PC being a true custom shop producing the likes of the 945 or 952 are long, long over.

September 1, 2018, 09:41 AM	#6
bac1023 Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 1,106	I much prefer the older 41. The new production models are ok and they shoot well, but the craftsmanship of the 60’s and 70’s is missing.

September 1, 2018, 11:10 AM	#8
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I've seen WAY too many problems reported about absolutely everything shipped from S&W currently and for sure, the Victory pistols specifically. I wouldn't go near anything S&W sells currently. 41's have earned their reputation but you WILL pay a pretty penny to get one. In my opinion, if you want Bullseye competition level rimfire, shop for a decent used Walther GSP or spend a little more for a Hammerli. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

September 1, 2018, 12:03 PM	#9
rt11002003 Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2014 Posts: 524	I have two of the newer M41s. They compare favorably to older M41s I've shot. My Hammerli Xesse Sport shots better than any M41 I've tried. The Hammerli I'm shooting these days is my second one. Hammerli made a model 280 (208?) that was even better. I'm the limiting factor in hand gun (any gun) accuracy so I haven't found it necessary to look for the ultimate. I do have an old Anschutz bolt action rifle that's really accurate, and cheap in its day. I've shot the Victory, didn't care for it. My shooting buddy bought a Victory. Sold his older model M41. He favors a Browning BuckMark for shooting steels. I went with the newer M41s because they came with an integral rail, no drilling or tapping needed. That's important to me because at 80, my eyes prefer red dot sights. The Hammerli iron sights work better for me than the M41' sights. Another nice, accurate handgun is the S&W Model 422, an older model from S&W, generally available less expensively. I have two of them, also. One with a 4" barrel; the other with a 6" barrel. Not M41 class, but pretty close. Comparing the SIG p210 to the SIG X-5 (or X-6) is almost apples to oranges. The p210 was developed as a duty handgun. The X Series are sport shooters. The p210 Swiss made pistols are superior to the German models, according to experts. I've owned the Swiss model and shot the German p210, I couldn't tell a difference. Have owned and own the X-5 (two models) and X-6. Found the X-6 worked better for me than the X-5, or the p210. Just picked up a new SIG p210T Target, US made. Surprised me, I shot it better than the X-5 and the German and Swiss p210s. The whole gun thing is very subjective.

September 2, 2018, 08:24 AM	#12
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Thanks for all the replies guys. I don’t really “need” a high end .22 since I don’t compete. I made the mistake of browsing gunbroker.com and saw one. The cult like following and almost legendary status of the 41 is what piqued my interest. A new 7” model was around $800 when I started bidding. I think I entered about 3 additional bids (to become the highest bidder) and then said if it is meant to be, it will be mine. I bid $950 and closed the browser. The gun went for $955. Oh well, the other guy might have kept bidding anyway. There are a few that I am watching that look very interesting. I’ll let you know “if “ I win one. LOL __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

September 3, 2018, 11:43 AM	#14
rt11002003 Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2014 Posts: 524	"DaleA", I paid $75 NIB in 1970. It was never fired until about four years ago. Carried it around the USAF until I retired. Then was busy in a second career. Very basic single shot, bolt action. Never got to use the "peep" sights. My eyes got too tired. Now use a scope on it. A couple of weeks ago, when going thru some "stuff", I found the original instructions for adjusting the trigger. "HighValleyRanch", sorry about that; I was going from memory. At 80 the memory can be spotty. Have considered buying one of the "better" Hammerli's, but Haven't convinced myself to do so.

September 3, 2018, 04:05 PM	#15
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	$75 for an Anschutz in 1970 was a very good deal indeed even for one of the more economical (I refuse to use the word 'cheap' in regards to an Anschutz) rifles they sold. I'll bet the trigger, and accuracy of your Anschutz is top notch. FYI I had a friend that did get the top of the line $300 target model. I shot it a few times before he moved off to college and I thought the trigger was very nice, (so did he), then at college one of the coaches of their rifle team that knew what he was doing adjusted it for him and he said it was much, much better. It still had to lift 3 pounds but he said it was much more like the proverbial 'glass rod breaking' when the coach was done with it. Good luck, I'm sure that rifle will serve you well.

September 4, 2018, 04:31 AM	#16
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Maybe I am stuck in the past but I have always fancied High Standards. I would look for a good used Victor or Supermatic before either of the S&Ws. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

September 4, 2018, 12:13 PM	#18
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Really sounds like you don't want or need either one of the listed choices. Any of the modern semi auto or revolver 22s would do for a lot less. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

September 4, 2018, 03:13 PM	#21
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,091	Stephen, My impression of current Performance Center production is the same as bac's. I had a 41 years ago, and were I again in the market, would not even consider that PC Victory thing. I'd keep watching for the right Model 41 too. __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

September 4, 2018, 06:17 PM	#23
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Thanks for the replies guys! It is a shame to hear so many legacy brands are putting put out mediocre products now. This includes Sig and Colt. Interestingly, Walther seems to have really stepped up their game with the PPQ. I think I will stick with the hunt for the 41 and see if I can get a good deal. If not, I don't really "need" another .22. LOL __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

September 5, 2018, 12:37 PM	#24
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Model 41 for me-a grand old target pistol developed for Bullseye competition. Beautifully finished and superb workmanship, especially on the older models. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

September 5, 2018, 02:25 PM	#25
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...you can get a competitive target pistol..." A Smith 41 is a competitive target pistol. An $868.00 pistol is not. Despite is being from Smith's Performance Center there's no comparison between an SW22, entry level, .22 target pistol and a 41 at $1,369.00 or $1,619.00. Mind you, it depends on what competition you're shooting. Both of 'em really need aftermarket grips too. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!