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Old September 7, 2015, 01:00 PM   #1
Tactical Jackalope
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Back up guns and the benefits, if you want them..

So most of us here on this forum, carry concealed. We carry 1 firearm which is good and more than likely it will solve any issue should the need ever arise. Of course as Achilles weakness was his heel. The semi-automatic handgun's weakness is it's magazine. So at least 1 spare is always a good idea.

Now, onto back up guns. The benefits that are easy to see and think of are that it's faster to draw than reload for some people. That it's good to have in case your primary pistol is out of service for whatever reason.

Another really good one and the reason that I carry a back up some days, is to arm another individual or loved one. Not everyone I know carries and handgun for self defense. Most are efficient enough to hold their own should the need ever arise. The legal matters only matter after the fact. Of course the firearm is to be used in a worst case scenario only. In most peoples eyes: being alive triumphs over getting killed.



If you're in your vehicle with a loved one or ones and stop to get gas / something from inside. Drop the back up gun in the car with them and lock the doors. That's one example.



Of course most people have a hard time carrying anything larger than an LCP. So a back up gun seems even more far fetched. That's okay.

They're just more benefits to it than not, just like a lot of things in life that are give or take. To each his own.
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Old September 7, 2015, 02:21 PM   #2
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I dont want to carry the gun that I do carry. Carrying 2 guns is not likely to ever be a realistic consideration. I do agree that a person should probably carry a spare mag in the event of a sudden primary mag defect or need or more ammo. As far as being able to produce a second gun faster than a reload is relative to how and where you carry the second gun...its possible, sure- but it depends.
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Old September 7, 2015, 02:34 PM   #3
Dragline45
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I don't see a need for a backup gun, spare mags are far more useful to me. The chances I will ever need to use my gun in self defense are pretty slim, the chances I will ever need to use a reload in my gun in a self defense situation are even smaller, the chances I will need a back up gun are astronomically small. Even the majority of our armed infantry forces do not carry a secondary weapon, and they are willingly putting themselves in situations far more dangerous than a civilian will encounter. Many of our special forces soldiers in lieu of carrying a secondary weapon will instead carry spare mags for their primary.

As far as arming another individual I am with, if they did not make the conscious decision to carry a gun themselves, they are most likely not prepared or even qualified to use the gun I gave them, and could actually do more harm than good. Not to mention the legal ramifications of handing one of your guns to someone to use, and god forbid they shoot an innocent bystander in the process.
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Old September 7, 2015, 03:54 PM   #4
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Quote:
Another really good one and the reason that I carry a back up some days, is to arm another individual or loved one. Not everyone I know carries and handgun for self defense. Most are efficient enough to hold their own should the need ever arise. The legal matters only matter after the fact. Of course the firearm is to be used in a worst case scenario only. In most peoples eyes: being alive triumphs over getting killed.
Really?

This is serious?

I'd expect to hear these things coming from someone addicted to video games or action movies, but it would be a matter of some small concern if I were to hear them voiced in a training class I was teaching for either LE or private citizens.

In light of your desire to start a thread topic, though ...

The topic of secondary weapons has been debated ad nauseum over the decades. Mixed bag, at best.

I remember when proponents argued that the "backup" gun had to be in at least a caliber similar in power to that of the primary duty weapon (some folks liked the early CA Bulldog .44 spl for "big bore caliber" backup), while others accepted that handy size and ready employment could mitigate concerns regarding caliber "power" potential (.22 Mag was popular, in both kit-gun snub and 2-shot DA derringer).

I knew patrol guys who carried a Colt Commander or a S&W M19 snub as a secondary, and then down to the Colt DS .38 spl or the ubiquitous J-frame. A few guys carried the "lodge pin" Walther .380's or some little .25 ACP.

The Onion Field incident made more cops think about having something, even if in some small caliber/handgun that might be missed during a cursory pat-down done by someone unfamiliar with actually searching for weapons, looking to disarm a cop.

I knew a guy who ended up off the road and trapped by his seat belt inside his patrol car, during the pursuit of a bank robbery suspect, and who also discovered that his hastily applied seat belt had captured his holstered duty weapon (another issue). The suspect saw the patrol car veer off the road and get caught in a ditch, and stopped his vehicle to run back and fire several rounds at the cop in his patrol car. Fortunately, my friend wasn't hit (although he suffered a rotator cuff injury unsuccessfully trying to wrench his gun free of the seat belt and holster). Now, if he'd had a secondary weapon, say in an ankle rig, of at least a .38 Spl or .380, he'd at least have had access to another weapon to use (dependent on the circumstances of it being able to be used, of course).

Nowadays, being in retirement mode, I don't often see the necessity of carrying a secondary weapon. I have any number of other things I do like to remember to carry, though. Things like 2-3 folding knives, a practical light source (like my 4Sevens Mini ML-X), my cellphone, car fob, cigar cutter/punch, antiseptic wipes, some first aid supplies and/or nitrile gloves. Things that are actually used from day to day. I dislike ankle carry, and groin or AIWB doesn't appeal to me.

When I do decide to carry a secondary weapon, it's usually something that easily tucks away, such as one of my J's or my LCP's, and sometimes, in the last couple of years, it's even one of the little NAA SA revolvers chambered in .22 LR or Mag (often referred to as gadgets or pocket jewelry, but which I still think of as occasional insurance against an onion field-type situation).

Spare mags? Sure. Handy, and the only way to effectively resolve a mag-related problem in a semiauto pistol.

Will most people (including off-duty cops, if not required by policy) do it, though? Hardly.

I've taught classes where a lot of private citizens expressed how they saw little need, or none, to think about carrying spare ammunition. Ditto cops in off-duty mode (unless required by policy, and presuming they followed policy).

A good friend of mine recently returned from helping teach at a large training venue for a while (several hundred cops over many days). He said he saw only 1 of them visibly carrying a spare mag on their own time. A lot of them carried guns, but only the one guy visibly carrying a spare mag. Granted, maybe some of them might've been stashing a spare (double stack) mag inside a pocket, which wouldn't be visible like when carried on a belt carrier.

Secondary weapons? Most people find it burdensome enough just to carry a primary weapon with any consistency. The majority of the private citizens I've taught over the years (with CCW licenses) said they didn't carry their licensed weapons all the time, or even with any regularity.

Cops? Another mixed bag. The last time I listened to a major national trainer discuss statistics of actively employed cops carrying off-duty, if I remember right it seemed the statistics he discussed indicated that it may as low as barely 20% of active cops go armed on their own time. As a LE trainer, I'd be happy to get a significant number of them to just consider carrying a "primary" off-duty weapon, without going out of my way to worry about them carrying a secondary.

I don't get involved in trying to advocate one way or the other for the carrying of a secondary weapon on-duty, but if someone chooses to do so (and it's within policy), I think it practical to require they demonstrate they can use it to the same standards required for the primary duty weapon. No way to predict it won't have to serve as the "primary" under some conditions.

For off-duty or private citizens? Well, that can be discussed at length and go in a number of directions (presuming it's lawful in any particular jurisdiction, and within policy for off-duty cops).

Those private citizens who decide they need to carry more guns and ammo going about their daily activities than most cops may carry on-duty in the same areas? Well, that's another subject.
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Old September 7, 2015, 04:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
I don't see a need for a backup gun, spare mags are far more useful to me. The chances I will ever need to use my gun in self defense are pretty slim, the chances I will ever need to use a reload in my gun in a self defense situation are even smaller, the chances I will need a back up gun are astronomically small.

As far as arming another individual I am with, if they did not make the conscious decision to carry a gun themselves, they are most likely not prepared or even qualified to use the gun I gave them, and could actually do more harm than good.
Very good points, I dont think I could ague with any of that if I had to.
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Old September 7, 2015, 06:54 PM   #6
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The semi-automatic handgun's weakness is it's magazine.
Not an issue with my 38 snub.

Concealed carriers who are in high risk surroundings or have a job that involves risky business certainly need to have a backup.

Me?

I'm just a harmless old guy living a very low profile lifestyle. My 642 is plenty for my purposes. If circumstances change, I have other options available.

Each of us has to analyze our situation and prepare accordingly.
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Old September 7, 2015, 06:56 PM   #7
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When I worked in uniform, I used to carry a Beretta 21 (22 LR) as a backup.
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Old September 8, 2015, 08:10 AM   #8
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Posted by fastbolt:
Quote:
Really?

This [to arm another individual or loved one] is serious?
I think it is an excellent reason. I got the idea from Mas.

There are other reasons that the OP did not mention. One is to mitigate the risk of losing the primary weapon in the attack. Another is to have a gun that can be gripped in a jacket pocket when things are worrisome but drawing is not justified.

The advantage of having a firearm that can be easily accessed with the weak hand while the defender is strapped into the driver's seat of a car is a real one. The civilian who lets a passenger out to use a restroom or go into a stores is probably more at risk of having someone get in uninvited than would be a patrol officer.
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Old September 8, 2015, 08:19 AM   #9
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Posted by skoro:
Quote:
I'm just a harmless old guy living a very low profile lifestyle.
I live a very low profile lifestyle too, but I really do not want to appear harmless these days.

Quote:
My 642 is plenty for my purposes.
If your purposes are to believe that you are well protected, you may be right.

Quote:
If circumstances change, I have other options available.
Circumstances can change in a moment.

My primary carry weapon is thinner than the 642; slightly higher; less than half an inch longer; it carries 60% more ammunition; it has much better sights; and it has a much better trigger pull.

I started out carrying a 642. After a training course or two, I started carrying it only for backup.
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Old September 8, 2015, 09:28 AM   #10
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Cool cool... I like the responses. Regardless of where they stand.

I remember I worked for a local gun shop here for a brief time.. They required you to carry a back up. At first I was a little weirded about by it. It made sense though. And when we did live fire classes for our customers it became more evident to me that it was a good idea.

Now do I always do it? Nah... But I understand it.

When we would drive to gun shows he would make us carry the 2 guns with spare mags and even had one of us with an AR pistol. It was a 3 car convoy surrounding the vehicle with the guns. Fun times!


I kinda miss them.
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Old September 8, 2015, 10:14 AM   #11
skoro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Circumstances can change in a moment.
Which is why I carry.
Quote:
My primary carry weapon is thinner than the 642; slightly higher; less than half an inch longer; it carries 60% more ammunition; it has much better sights; and it has a much better trigger pull.
Sounds like a good one. 1911 maybe?
Quote:
I started out carrying a 642. After a training course or two, I started carrying it only for backup.
Each of us should prepare as we think best.
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Old September 8, 2015, 10:33 AM   #12
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When did magazines become so problematic? I bought my first automatic pistol around 1967 and it was about 25 years old then. I've never had a magazine-related issue with any pistol. Am I overdue for one?
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Old September 8, 2015, 12:19 PM   #13
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Arming another individual

Quote:
I'd expect to hear these things coming from someone addicted to video games or action movies, but it would be a matter of some small concern if I were to hear them voiced in a training class I was teaching for either LE or private citizens.
Ridiculous. My brother, for example has never carried a gun in his life. I've seen him shoot, though. Should he and I, for whatever reason, find ourselves being fired upon, I would immediately toss him my BUG.
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Old September 8, 2015, 02:00 PM   #14
Tactical Jackalope
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Ridiculous. My brother, for example has never carried a gun in his life. I've seen him shoot, though. Should he and I, for whatever reason, find ourselves being fired upon, I would immediately toss him my BUG.
Bingo... My point exactly. I said that in my OP too. If they know how to shoot and know the 4 safety rules, etc etc... Why the heck not? Just because they chose not to carry for whatever reason.

But don't worry. I think fastbolt is still mad at me from another thread. I made some enemies on that thread LOL. Hence the unnecessary use of the whole "video game" comment.

No worries.

I was always taught the benefits of a back up gun and spare mags. The good far outweighs any of the "bad" that people are known to conjure up for personal reasons.

Glad you see the benefits.
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Old September 8, 2015, 02:04 PM   #15
Bill DeShivs
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My backup gun is my primary.
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Old September 8, 2015, 02:12 PM   #16
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I generally carry a single gun and 98% of the time, a spare magazine. The only time I carry a second gun is if I am bundled up in a heavy winter coat (making my primary virtually inaccessible), I will put a small pistol in an outside coat pocket.
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Old September 8, 2015, 03:18 PM   #17
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I carry a BUG because I can, I picked up a Beretta Pico .380 and it's just slips into my weak side pants pocket. As OldMarksman stated it's nice to slip my hand into my pocket unobtrusively and be prepared to draw.

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Old September 8, 2015, 04:12 PM   #18
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^^^^

I agree with This.
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Old September 8, 2015, 08:01 PM   #19
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I carry one concealed pistol because it is illegal in the State of New Mexico to carry more than one gun concealed.
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Old September 8, 2015, 11:40 PM   #20
Shadi Khalil
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Quote:
My backup gun is my primary.
That would make for a decent sig line, Bill. I don't carry a back up pistol but do carry a spare mag about 85% of the time. I can see the arguments for but have never felt the need for one.
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Old September 10, 2015, 03:44 PM   #21
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OldMarksman posted:
Quote:
I think it is an excellent reason. I got the idea from Mas.
I've listened to all manner of perspectives on this subject over the years. Not often is there a definitive right or wrong "side" to it.

Where I often have a bit of hesitation making blanket statements about "arming another individual" is wondering whether or not someone has carefully considered that it might not be a good idea in the circumstances, let alone a lawful one, to "arm another individual" in some fast, fuzzy and chaotic situation.

How well trained to act within an evolving emergency set of circumstances is the individual?

Are they going to become an additional problem to the one that already exists?

Am I creating an unnecessary exposure to liability by handing them one of my firearms, and perhaps buying into whatever it is they think (under panic) is the 'right thing to do'?

Knowing the status, capabilities and ability of close family to function under stress is one thing, but a stranger? Even some friends and acquaintances? I know a bunch of folks who are non-LE gun owners, and I'd be unwilling to hand over a gun to most of them in the elevated stress of some emergency situation.

I know it sounds altruistic to discuss arming responsible individuals to assist in some emergency, but it's the "responsible" part of the sentiment that makes me hesitant.

Even thinking about leaving a firearm in one of my cars, and leaving my wife in the car, makes me a bit apprehensive thinking about some set of circumstances unfolding in which an eager, young cop might decide that my wife is in sufficiently constructive possession of the firearm which is no longer under my immediate control. Then, having to deal with the fallout of her being charged with some violation of unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in public.

It's the "good intentions" cobblestones that pave the way to unpleasant places that sometimes gives me pause.

On a somewhat related note, I've also made no secret of the fact that it's not a "given" that I'd even share compatible pistol magazines with someone else in some deadly force incident. This has often come up whenever someone tries to make the argument that compatibility of guns, magazines and ammunition is "a common sense must" in some discussions. Not hardly. Context matters.

I've told a number of folks (other cops) that if they've burned through their magazines without achieving good effect, not to assume I'm going to give them any of mine when I arrive, even if we have the same guns, just so they can spray more ineffective rounds hither and yon.

The ability to unobtrusively access a secondary weapon can be a handy option. This has sometimes been listed as an consideration when some agencies have been known to require a specific manner & method of carrying an approved secondary weapon. When I used to wear a rain coat in my plainclothes assignment, and I carried my older 649 Bodyguard, there were situations when it didn't look (to the people around me) like it was unusual for me to have one of my hands in an outside pocket, and that was the pocket in which my 649 nestled.

Bill DeShivs posted:
Quote:
My backup gun is my primary.
Nicely phrased. It can carry at least a couple of meanings, too, not the least of which is that once circumstances have forced you to resort to one, a secondary/backup weapon becomes your primary. Also, circumstances (and policies) might allow for a secondary/backup to be accessed and employed before (instead of) the primary. Depends.

Constantine posted:
Quote:
But don't worry. I think fastbolt is still mad at me from another thread. I made some enemies on that thread LOL. Hence the unnecessary use of the whole "video game" comment.
Dude, don't mistake disagreement, or questioning, as necessarily indicating someone is "mad at you", especially me. Words don't bother me. I've spent too many years having to be objective and impartial whenever someone decided to make me the focus of their anger and tirades ... and raising my own children to adulthood ... to let words get under my skin. Besides, this is just an internet discussion forum, not high school (where the emotions, angst and the drama of youth can run often run rampant).

I know it's difficult to only communicate via text, especially when you consider that more than 95% of actual human communication occurs at the level of visual interpretation of body language, postural signs, micro-expressions, and then also being able to hear and try to interpret vocal nuances.

Now, sometimes polite discourse seems to get left in the dust of some heated thread topic, and someone might ignore the rules of conduct when it comes to enjoying the hospitality of some hosted forum, and receive some caution to be mindful of the rules regarding polite conduct. Doesn't mean sometimes someone "makes enemies", though.

Not among adults, anyway, you'd hope.

Probably why some internet forums offer the hint of how to handle some consistently annoying folks by being able to use an "ignore" feature, don't you think? I don't even know if this forum offers such a feature, though, as I've not yet been thin-skinned or annoyed enough by someone to think to see if one is even offered.

BlueTrain posted:
Quote:
When did magazines become so problematic? I bought my first automatic pistol around 1967 and it was about 25 years old then. I've never had a magazine-related issue with any pistol. Am I overdue for one?
Not an unfair question.

Might be like asking if you're overdue for a flat tire, though. No way to know. Things can happen.

Over the years of having served as a LE firearms trainer, and having volunteered to work with non-LE folks for approx 10 years, I've seen at least my fair share of magazine-related stoppages occur.

The typical causes have seemed to include - weakened/worn out mag springs; damaged/worn followers; damaged magazine lips and/or bodies; and contamination by heavy fouling or debris (congealed oils, fur-ball colonies, sand, metal shavings, and general grit).

Well-maintained magazines seem to offer much fewer potential problems than neglected and abused magazines. Big surprise, right?

On the other hand, magazines are at the very heart of reliable semiauto pistol functioning. They're "assemblies", being an assembly of assorted parts that must properly work together in order to provide optimal feeding & functioning as a whole assembly.

Sometimes, as assemblies, they may require attention, such as replacement of any of the "wearable" parts, damaged parts, etc.

In the event it's the magazine body, or when replacement of worn/damaged parts still can't restore a magazine back to normal operation, then it's time to discard that one and replace it with a fresh magazine.

Sometimes a holster/carry method may result in the loss (or dislodging) of a primary magazine, too.

It's not like it's especially "rare" for someone carrying a belt holstered pistol to discover that they've had the magazine become dislodged by the inadvertent depressing of the magazine catch. Sometimes the mag may be in the car/truck seat, or on the veh floor, or in the driveway, parking lot, etc, and it can be retrieved.

Or, the butt/floor plate of the magazine is knocked against hard surfaces (car & building door jambs, chair arms, etc) enough times that it becomes damaged, and may release the mag's ammo load at a most inopportune moment.

In such unexpected and unwanted instances, having another magazine is pretty much the only way to restore the pistol to operational readiness.
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Old September 10, 2015, 04:30 PM   #22
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For those who go to the range and fire a box or two of ammunition in a calm and collected manner, firearms malfunctions may seen extremely low on the list of potential issues.

But: anyone who has participated in a two day defensive shooting course in which eight or more trainees fire 800 to 1,200 rounds each has most probably seen several failures to function--and he or she may have experienced one or two stoppages personally. Any instructor who has conducted those courses over the course of a year has observed many more and some serious ones, and can probably make some observations about the comparative reliability of different equipment.

Firearms fail, often but not only in a manner that can best be addressed timely by quickly replacing magazines. That does not mean that the magazines are necessarily at fault. It's just that changing out the magazine is the first thing to try.

All responsible trainers of whom I am aware include malfunction clearing drills in their courses. Of course, if a carrier chooses to not carry a back-up magazine, the skill will not be useful when it is needed.

I do not practice malfunction clearing anywhere nearly as often as I should. As a result, I cannot do it as quickly as I would like, and I cannot do it quickly without looking at the gun. And, of course, a malfunction may not be one that can be remedied instantly.

For those reasons, I think the back-up gun, though less convenient, is a better risk mitigation approach for me that an extra magazine.

And of course there are the other advantages discussed above.

For those who may not believe it, revolvers fail, too. All firearms fail. When revolvers fail, one cannot just drop and replace the magazine. One must drop and replace the gun.

Firearms do not fail very often, and at the square range it is only an inconvenience when they do, but as they say, consider not only the odds but the stakes.
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Old September 10, 2015, 04:48 PM   #23
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What's one of the old sayings?

If you haven't experienced a stoppage or malfunction with a particular gun, it may simply be that you haven't fired it enough for it to have happened yet, or in as many different set of conditions as you might consider using it in.

Since my work is on an outdoor year-round range, with no shortage of variable weather, sand, dirt and other environmental fluff being blown and kicked up (or to catch dropped magazines or fumbled guns), it's not like it's exactly "rare" for someone to experience a stoppage caused by environmental factors, let alone owner/user neglect, handling, abuse or occasional ammunition problems.

Factor in some fast-paced scenarios and some expected shooter stress, and things happen often enough to make stoppage/malfunction drills a handy thing to know. Tossing in the occasional "dummy" drills in different courses-of-fire helps keep some folks on their toes, too.
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Old September 10, 2015, 05:04 PM   #24
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On duty, I almost always carry a backup gun. During the aftermath around Hurricane Sandy, I carried two. Seeing the Katrina aftermath years before, I wasn't taking any chances.

My main reason for the backup is the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. I did my senior paper in college on it, and a backup gun could have been helpful for at least five agents that were wounded or killed... only one of those had one and employed it (another did, but only took one shot before realizing he was out of range, and reloaded his main pistol).

Two guns were removed from their holsters during the pursuit, and lost from the crashes. One of these agents had a backup, which allowed him to cross the street with a Mini-14 shooting at him to cover the two agents who died. His was shot in the hand during a reload, and shot again when the shooter executed the other two agents, but he survived. The one who didn't have another gun had his vehicle stop feet away from the suspects' vehicle. He was wounded by glass/chunks of car as he retreated... but he was in a good spot to put rounds on target. The agent I'll mention next was a little further away, but one of his shots pretty much took the second gunman out of the fight.

One revolver was inoperable after the agent was shot in the hand, and blood/meat got into the works. He attempted to get it going, but was shot and temporary paralyzed when he went for a shotgun in his car. Another agent was shot in the arm, and was able to operate his shotgun/duty weapon to end the shootout... but that was done by a one handed pistol charge. He was unable to reload, but I'm sure having a second gun with five rounds might have been more comforting. If it were me, I rather send another cylinder into that car before advancing on them.

The more troubling situation was one of the two agents that lost their lives, and really why I'll always have a backup. Both were carrying S&W 459s. The older agent lost his glasses, and was not able to see the gunman... which is another topic that could be touched on. However, the other agent had a .223 round go through the slide of his S&W. This was after him making a fatal shot on the shooter, but he still had enough life in him to end both of their lives, and attempt to get away in the FBI vehicle. Considering the blood loss of the shooter, drawing a backup gun may have saved at least one of the agent's lives if he was able to shoot back.

Having a gun is very important in a shooting. Having one that is working is just as important. I like having another option before I have to pull out my knife for defense. Will I ever get into a shooting? Hopefully not, so I'll just chalk the backup gun as additional exercise.
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Old September 10, 2015, 05:15 PM   #25
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Some time last year I watched a Personal Defense Network video in which Rob Pincus was showing some differences between what he called "good shooting" (shooting at a target straight on from a standing position, with some double taps and "two in the..." routines, and defensive shooting. The former looked like what we see people practicing at the range.

In the midst of the former drill, his Glock offered up an unscripted stoppage.

Rob automatically and instantly drew another magazine, dropped the other one, inserted the new one, and chambered a round, without glancing at the firearm.

It happened, right there, unplanned, in a demo.

I'm not that fast. I'm nowhere near that fast.

For me, a New York Reload is a better strategy.
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